Two in one

A place to talk about how to understand and explain 'crossdreaming' and related forms of 'gender variance'

Two in one

oreb
Joined: 14 May 2017, 21:32

15 Aug 2017, 20:51 #1

Forgive me if this has already been explicitly discussed and for the jumbled up writing.

Some of you, Barbara in particular but not only, describe your mind as being inhabited by a male and female entity each of which sees life through a very different emotional filter, when not lives in a completely parallel reality. How do you conceptualise this exactly? To which extent is this metaphorical and to which extent it corresponds with a dissociated personality? It feels as if neither of the two extremes is the case. Certainly not the latter: as some of you describe it seems as if  these entities attaining self-awareness is important, identity is important. Do the two stand on equal footing? Can they both occupy your mind at any given time? Do they interact with each other? Is there a third nameless observer? Are there any specific mind techniques (in possess of whom?) you have developed in order to deal with this situation.

The focus of my question is the different ways in which this happens for each of you, rather than the particular feelings involved. These were not great questions, but I hope it's enough to get going. Please, ask your own! 

Do you know about descriptions of this kind of phenomenon in literature? Certain situations that occur in Gene Wolfe's novels come to my mind. I think some of you might have pointed out at some point a certain analogy  with the way left and right hemisphere.
I didn't break the words! I am the words!!
Reply

Dawn
Joined: 27 Jul 2017, 08:02

15 Aug 2017, 21:13 #2

Its not really two in one for me. Its just one... but I guess you could say the one has parts and some of my parts were hiding and missing in action for a time. For me, its certainly nothing like Dissociative Identity. I'm quite familiar with that. Some of my best friends share the same body.
Reply

April
Joined: 17 Nov 2015, 16:32

15 Aug 2017, 21:35 #3

Oreb, I'm trying to think of how it was for me before the last decade, and I don't fully trust my memory in that regard. I am probably seeing those things through a very different filter now. I believe my understanding of myself evolved over time, as well as the mechanisms I used to cope. By the time of my late adolescence /early adulthood, I had come to some conclusion that a part of me wasn't consistent with what I wanted to achieve in life, in both a career and personal relationship sense. I felt a need to change that, and if it was unchangeable, to repress it. And that is essentially what I did for decades. I don't believe I ever thought of myself as two people though, as others have suggested in this forum. It was more like something was possessing me, and exerting emotional influence. I may have at several points personalized that in the form of something demonic, or similar entity, but I don't think I ever really truly believed that. It was more of a mental exercise that represented what I felt was happening inside me. 
Reply

Lost247365
Joined: 17 Nov 2015, 17:51

15 Aug 2017, 23:04 #4

oreb wrote: Forgive me if this has already been explicitly discussed and for the jumbled up writing.

Some of you, Barbara in particular but not only, describe your mind as being inhabited by a male and female entity each of which sees life through a very different emotional filter, when not lives in a completely parallel reality. How do you conceptualise this exactly? To which extent is this metaphorical and to which extent it corresponds with a dissociated personality? It feels as if neither of the two extremes is the case. Certainly not the latter: as some of you describe it seems as if  these entities attaining self-awareness is important, identity is important. Do the two stand on equal footing? Can they both occupy your mind at any given time? Do they interact with each other? Is there a third nameless observer? Are there any specific mind techniques (in possess of whom?) you have developed in order to deal with this situation.

The focus of my question is the different ways in which this happens for each of you, rather than the particular feelings involved. These were not great questions, but I hope it's enough to get going. Please, ask your own! 

Do you know about descriptions of this kind of phenomenon in literature? Certain situations that occur in Gene Wolfe's novels come to my mind. I think some of you might have pointed out at some point a certain analogy  with the way left and right hemisphere.
I have often referred to my crossdreaming here as having a second person in my head.  

It wasn't always this way, as a adolescent I couldn't hear her at all.  I don't think she was fully formed at that point and that her voice couldn't break through my own denial.  These feelings were just developing and I was just starting to compartimentalize her in my head.  But as as my crossdreaming as progressed the feminine part of my mind has became louder and louder and clearer.  Until it got to the point I couldn't ignore her anymore; and once the wall of denial came down the voice was finally able to make its way to me.  

Even now, the voice increases and decreases with how strong these feelings become.  When it is weak, she is nothing more than a faint feeling.  But when my crossdreaming is strong it is almost like I can hear a distinct voice.  Usually it is an incessant thought in my head, "I wish I was a girl" over and over again.  At one point I was experiencing an episode of crossdreaming so strong it was like I could talk to her and she could respond.  I wrote down that conversation and turned it into a poem that I posted on my blog and reposted here the other day:

poetry-corner-t1252.html#p11364

And lets be clear, this is not really a seperate personality like in disassociative personality disorder.  It is me, and my own voice.  Only, it is a girl me, and a girl's voice.  And sometimes it feels like she is arguing with a third part of myself.  This part, is different.  It has no gender, but it is always arguing with her.  Telling her, that we would hate being a girl.  That we don't have any traditionally feminine interest and that physically we would never be the overly idealized girl she wants to be.  That we would be unhappy and bring scorn and rejection from friends and family.

And she always responds that she doesn't care.  She wants what she wants.  Her voice, is tinged emotion, and its voice is monotone and unemotional.  Just like her voice, I know that its voice is a part of me too.  But where she feels like she could almost be her own person, this voice seems devoid of personality.

I think the best way to describe it would be like describing the Fruedian concept of the Id, ego and superego. My crossdreaming side is like my id, and the other voice is the super-ego.  She is full of emotion and the other is all the the values that I have been socialized to have.  And ultimately, the superego part has had more control of me throughout my life, and probably the part that still has more control.  But, she is slowly gaining more  and more influence and her voice is drowning the supereog's voice out more and more.

Jack has made so articles that seem to kind of echo what I think I am talking about with his spliter and dark crossdreamer definitions:

http://www.crossdreamers.com/2014/01/a- ... ary-s.html
http://www.crossdreamers.com/2013/12/a- ... y-d-m.html

Anyway, that is the way it is like to me.  I hope I was able to explain this clearly enough.
Reply

Barbara Haskell
Joined: 14 Sep 2016, 12:12

16 Aug 2017, 00:02 #5

It's more like two sides of the same coin, it can be flipped one side, or another, or it can be some middle state. Mostly, Succubus and Warlock are useful metaphors for me. It's easier to talk about them in that way.

They share thoughts and memories, but they access memories in their own way: from the same event Warlock and Succubus can see different episodes as important and meaningful. They rarely talks directly to each other, this is not necessary with such deep connection.
Very unlikely that this is a Dissociative Disorder, as there are no memory losses.

They are similar and different at the same time. By MBTI classification, Warlock is an INTP and Succubus is an INFP. Not exactly left and right hemispheres, more like cognitive functions, Introverted Thinking and Introverted Feeling, described by Jung. Most of the times they are at agreement, even if they came to the same resolution in very different ways.

Can't relate those parts of me to Id and super-ego clearly, because it's Succubus, who should be associated with both of them. Probably the best interpretation will be that Warlock represents the Mind, and Succubus represents the Soul. Even if it means placing one metaphor over another.
Reply

Fabienne
Joined: 16 Apr 2017, 20:06

17 Aug 2017, 12:15 #6

I've thought quite a bit on this lately. I see it more as consecutive spheres.

- The inner sphere (her) is Fabienne: complex emotions (love, satisfaction, happiness, excitement, exuberance, playfulness, grief, sadness, pity, sympathy, dysphoria, etc), sexuality, creativity, optimism, truest identity.
- The middle sphere (it/they) is my genderless persona: basic emotions (survival emotions only such as anger, fear, doubt, anxiety, if not active goes emotionally blank and apathetic), pragmatism, logic, caution, social arbitration, confusion, realism, pessimism, most often seen as my actual identity by most, autistic in many ways.
- The outer sphere (him) is my male physical body: input from the senses, physical interactions, outward expression, superficial identity that the world knows me by.

In my views the middle sphere acts like a filter. It can be opaque, transparent or somewhere in between dependent on how much I, as my truest identity want to express myself in conjunction  with how much the it/they think is safe or appropriate for any given situation. It/they is/are control freaks, and sometimes it/they get confused about input from the outer and inner spheres not meshing properly. I believe the inner and middle spheres were once combined and female, but then they split.
Reply

Monique
Joined: 25 Mar 2016, 09:30

17 Aug 2017, 14:43 #7

There really isn't two of me either. I just wasn't able to ever express myself the way I wanted, so I had to construct a false outer me to protect myself from shame and consternation, my own and others.

I like Fabiennne's idea of a filter. It's constantly preoccupied with the administration of input and output, judging behavior status as appropriate or inappropriate in regards to any given situation. We're talking a huge bureaucracy here, sucking in a tremendous amount of the soul's energy budget.
"We live only to discover beauty. All else is a form of waiting."

- Khalil Gibran


If I cannot be a feminine traditional woman, what's the point of being a woman?

- Me
Reply

FrostRaven18
Joined: 03 Sep 2017, 07:17

04 Sep 2017, 02:37 #8

For me it's all about where and when. Is the me at work and the me at home playing video games the same person? Yes and no. I saw it the army a lot the NCO who was so unkind to me on the job is my friend after work was over. As for the he/she part, I think I'm male or inhabit that role when I'm out in the world or hard at work. I'm my female self when I'm playing or with friends and especially when I wont physical affection. I hate trying to be romantic as a man, but I know I would hate physical labor as a woman.
Reply

Lost247365
Joined: 17 Nov 2015, 17:51

06 Sep 2017, 14:10 #9

Kinda busy still but I wanted to leave this here:

Reply

Sofie
Joined: 26 Nov 2015, 16:48

11 Sep 2017, 03:36 #10

Dawn wrote: Its not really two in one for me. Its just one... but I guess you could say the one has parts and some of my parts were hiding and missing in action for a time. For me, its certainly nothing like Dissociative Identity. I'm quite familiar with that. Some of my best friends share the same body.
I can relate. It feels like two sides of the same coin to me. It's almost like a mood -- sometimes I feel masculine, sometimes feminine. It's like being happy or sad. You're still the same person.
Reply