Jen
Dream Dancer
Jen
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Joined: 12:33 AM - Nov 18, 2015

11:23 AM - Feb 19, 2018 #11

Ohhh............you're hard to underestimate.

I see.  The sense of "What am I doing here?", "Who's watching me?", is all here.
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zena
Dream Walker
zena
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Joined: 2:50 AM - Nov 04, 2017

6:48 AM - Mar 01, 2018 #12

jen don't mean turn you from what makes u crossdream but for me church's n symble of cross is against what were doing although good have lord blessing you rest of us girls look towards more feminne thing's)zena
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Monique
Dream Dancer
Monique
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Joined: 5:30 AM - Mar 25, 2016

9:08 AM - Mar 01, 2018 #13

Jen wrote: Yes, there are songs that can make you crossdream, and yes, there are pictures that can make you crossdream.  But for me, the strongest crossdreaming inspirations are religious art and architecture.  Who would have thoug thunk??!!!

Amazing use of light as art.
JPEG_20180110_154417.jpg

Metal as nature (the brass lilies).  
JPEG_20180110_154122.jpg

A section for the musicians to make the sounds that summon the heavens.  (Shamans!)
JPEG_20180110_154020.jpg

Candles, yes, light and scents that go up to the heavens.  
JPEG_20180110_153958.jpg

@Monique , a Lutheran church, dear diva, a Lutheran church. 
Jen, I know what you mean, but for the time being at least that route is closed to me, for better or for worse. I left the Lutheran church a few years ago, when the (female) Bishop Eva Brunne wanted to mark out the direction to Mecca and remove Christian symbols from a church in Stockholm in order to accomodate the growing numbers of intolerant and disrespectful Muslims, the rapist and murderous followers of that most vile and crude desert heresy against Christ. It was the final drop to make the chalice topple. I had had enough.
Which opens the way of returning to the Holy Mother Church of Roman Catholicism of course, if so I wish, which in the final analysis has a lot more of the accumulated spiritual depth, sublime beauty and tradition of patriarchal power of which you speak:





However, what has cautioned me from doing so has a lot to do with the same process of entropy, equalization and desertification also being active in the real church, partly driven by the Catholic claims to and hostageship to its own universalism, which for now at least stands wide open to an awry and destructive interpretation. You get the uneasy suspicion they are all, protestants and catholics alike, nowadays defectors of Christ the Son and the Holy Mother, and in the service of Yaldabaoth, the Demiurge, that old demon from the desert whom the Mohammedans do worship, not the Lord of Eternal Life, but the tyrannical and fumbling Lord 'father' of this Earth.

So where should an Indo-European turn to safeguard his bountiful and fertile pagan world? Who's on my side? I have no idea.

In consequence, you could say I have catapulted myself out of it, and for now at least, will remain in the service of the Mother Goddess, who will turn me into a loving woman and perhaps I shall find my own paradise in another world, where nice men can come to be rewarded, worshipped and healed for all eternity.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=e0A5vzGMQr8
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DV7s8Z2Vqh8
"We live only to discover beauty. All else is a form of waiting."

- Khalil Gibran


If I cannot be a feminine traditional woman, what's the point of being a woman?

- Me
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jdb.lal3899
Deep Dreamer
jdb.lal3899
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Joined: 10:35 PM - Sep 09, 2017

10:45 AM - Mar 01, 2018 #14

@Monique

(Jen sighs 🙄) You never cease to amaze me.  And welcome back 😌!!

Well good! You get the point.  For some people, it's not always popular culture that makes them crossdream.  It's always a feeling that they belong in another time, to another cause, and in another body, perhaps.  Some places or art pieces are enough to evoke the "other" in them. 

While researching the character of Percival after watching the Wagner opera, Parsifal, I found this creation: 1200px-Rossetti_Percival.jpg There is gender equality, or at least attempted human equality in spirituality.  I almost can't tell who's female or male in this painting of Percival.  I think the people with the same height in the background (equality), with the halos, are female because of their long hair, lighter shade of skin, and longer eye lashes.  (I just noticed a deceased body at the feet of the people! I think that's a female too based on the artistic rendering as I'd described.) The only differences about Percival and the knights are their shorter and darker hair, rougher facial lines, and darker shade of skin.  But in essence, this artistic creation is to signify a unity of the androgyny, a completion, a return to a whole.  In finding the Holy Grail, Percival became complete. 

Yeah, it made Jen crossdream 🤔😍

P.S. @Monique - Can you, or are you willing to,  do something about the Church of Sweden? (Private mail if you like.)
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April
Dream Tamer
April
Dream Tamer
Joined: 11:32 AM - Nov 17, 2015

11:03 AM - Mar 01, 2018 #15

Monique, Good to see you back. I usually love your posts, although I tend to find myself often simultaneously agreeing, disagreeing, and scratching my head while reading them. You have a very interesting view of things, which I sometimes struggle to comprehend because it's so different than my own. I suspect that some of this is related to our individual upbringings in different cultures, I am by no means anti religion. I have even had several flirtations with churches in my life, but I consider myself to be a person of spirituality who has been influenced by ideas coming from many sources, and not a member of any one faith. At the very least, orthodox Christians would consider me a fallen heretic, if I ever had the opportunity to discuss with them what I truly believe. My mother I think pretty much believed in the core Christian doctrines, but never liked going to a church, or having any formal association with them. I think she hated the communal aspects of it, and the demands for conformity that churches place on their members. I absorbed a lot of that thinking in my youth, and later on that merged with an evolving philosophy that made individualism my core value, and libertarianism as my core ideology. To me, the real issue is not that one religion is better than another and it’s just matter of that religion being faithful to its central dogma. In fact, rigid adherence to theological dogma I see as the key problem in all religion. Add on to that the use of religion as a mechanism for power, and a tool to enforce social conformity, and religion becomes tyranny rather than a liberator of the soul.   
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Monique
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Monique
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Joined: 5:30 AM - Mar 25, 2016

12:43 PM - Mar 01, 2018 #16

Jen,

Thanks for welcoming me back! I saw your thread and as it had the potential to move in so many directions I couldn't resist diving into it!

Of course. Certainly I would expect there is gender equality in spirituality. The closer you get to the innermost heaven, to the "source" or whatever you would call it, does not all multiplicity also cease to exist? Didn't St. Paul even write as much in Galatians - "There can be neither Jew nor Greek, there can be neither slave nor freeman, there can be neither male nor female -- for you are all one in Christ Jesus"?
Or just consider the highly likely case that this is not our first incarnation. Consequently, we have been male and female many times before. The soul is not of a particular sex as such. That's only the imprint on it through our last or last couple of incarnations. So it can be altered.

Thing is, I'm just not that keen on returning to 'absolute source non-duality' etc, as matter of fact. I would be quite happy to dwell somewhere in the astral, where for instance I could exist as a distinct individual and be woman, in a world that still had form and duality, as shaped by consciousness, but of course, much 'better' than here. I just want to get out of this universal prison of confusion, matter and net positive suffering. Or to put it differently, not too much to ask, right! 😎

Oh, Parsifal is an opera I have long wanted to attend. I have the impression there is great mythical depth to it. The spear heals the wound and the way to the grail is by the route of compassion. Well, yeah. There are probably many levels to it. It's also heavily late romantic and in me that evokes the sense of that lost world to which there is that crossdream trigger you mention.
Last edited by Monique on 1:14 PM - Mar 01, 2018, edited 2 times in total.
"We live only to discover beauty. All else is a form of waiting."

- Khalil Gibran


If I cannot be a feminine traditional woman, what's the point of being a woman?

- Me
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Monique
Dream Dancer
Monique
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Joined: 5:30 AM - Mar 25, 2016

12:52 PM - Mar 01, 2018 #17

April wrote:In fact, rigid adherence to theological dogma I see as the key problem in all religion. Add on to that the use of religion as a mechanism for power, and a tool to enforce social conformity, and religion becomes tyranny rather than a liberator of the soul.   
Yes, absolutely!
"We live only to discover beauty. All else is a form of waiting."

- Khalil Gibran


If I cannot be a feminine traditional woman, what's the point of being a woman?

- Me
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Monique
Dream Dancer
Monique
Dream Dancer
Joined: 5:30 AM - Mar 25, 2016

7:03 PM - Mar 01, 2018 #18

April wrote: Monique, Good to see you back. I usually love your posts, although I tend to find myself often simultaneously agreeing, disagreeing, and scratching my head while reading them. You have a very interesting view of things, which I sometimes struggle to comprehend because it's so different than my own. I suspect that some of this is related to our individual upbringings in different cultures, I am by no means anti religion. I have even had several flirtations with churches in my life, but I consider myself to be a person of spirituality who has been influenced by ideas coming from many sources, and not a member of any one faith. At the very least, orthodox Christians would consider me a fallen heretic, if I ever had the opportunity to discuss with them what I truly believe. My mother I think pretty much believed in the core Christian doctrines, but never liked going to a church, or having any formal association with them. I think she hated the communal aspects of it, and the demands for conformity that churches place on their members. I absorbed a lot of that thinking in my youth, and later on that merged with an evolving philosophy that made individualism my core value, and libertarianism as my core ideology. To me, the real issue is not that one religion is better than another and it’s just matter of that religion being faithful to its central dogma. In fact, rigid adherence to theological dogma I see as the key problem in all religion. Add on to that the use of religion as a mechanism for power, and a tool to enforce social conformity, and religion becomes tyranny rather than a liberator of the soul.   
So heartfelt encouraging to see you often enjoy my posts as you are somebody I actually respect. May I return the courtesy by pointing out that few are able to achieve the nuance and being so to the point with words as you, and consequently admit that I love reading your posts as well? You have that well grounded wise femininity about you. 🙂

Simultaneously agreeing and disagreeing and scratching your head? *lol*

Well, sorry about that, but it's nevertheless fun to know you sometimes succeed in freaking people out.

Hm, I might have some hunches where you think I'm sending two conflicting messages at the same time, but it's tough to know exactly where. Whenever you do identify such a passage, do not hesitate to point it out and if you feel like it shove right up my face!

*Hugs*
"We live only to discover beauty. All else is a form of waiting."

- Khalil Gibran


If I cannot be a feminine traditional woman, what's the point of being a woman?

- Me
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Monique
Dream Dancer
Monique
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Joined: 5:30 AM - Mar 25, 2016

8:17 AM - Mar 04, 2018 #19

jdb.lal3899 wrote:
P.S. @Monique - Can you, or are you willing to,  do something about the Church of Sweden? (Private mail if you like.)
What do you mean "do something" about it? There is nothing you can do. Two things about the Church of Sweden:

1) It's an organization of a singular mindset and one mind. It's not like you can incite a rebellion among the oppressed within the church. The Church of Sweden is the oppressor. It's the feeble yet fully operational, prolonged arm of the state, a state that by moral conviction operates as the enemy of the people.

2) It's completely inconsequential to the political or social life of the Swedish nation. Some Americans may find it hard to understand this, but the Swedish people have absolutely no relation nor any ties to its church and its supposed faith. From the perspective of ordinary people, its use value is simply as an institution to process dead bodies, granting some semblance of dignity to the crematorium incinerator.

In other words, it's too tough to try doing anything about and even if you could the proceeds from the exercise would stand in no proportion to the effort.
"We live only to discover beauty. All else is a form of waiting."

- Khalil Gibran


If I cannot be a feminine traditional woman, what's the point of being a woman?

- Me
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jdb.lal3899
Deep Dreamer
jdb.lal3899
Deep Dreamer
Joined: 10:35 PM - Sep 09, 2017

11:25 AM - Mar 05, 2018 #20

Whao, whao, whao.  May I get you a glass of water, diva dear?

(Hey, this is my own thread about crossdreaming.)

Any particular beverage makes you crossdream, Moni? @Monique 
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