Every time you write "trans women are women"....

jackmolay
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jackmolay
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7:05 AM - Aug 09, 2018 #1

My friend Christine Marie Jentoft, leading Norwegian trans activist, knows how to put things in perspective over at her twitter account.

I made two memes based on her interventions.

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apm77
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apm77
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8:01 AM - Aug 09, 2018 #2

Now this raises a question I've been waiting for a chance to ask.

When you hear someone say that trans women are not women, what do you hear?
  • It might mean that trans women are men.
  • It might mean that trans women are in a class of their own, not exactly men, not exactly women.
  • It might mean that gender is context-dependent, and that even if trans women are women in some or most contexts, there are also contexts where trans women should not necessarily be classified as women. Therefore trans women are not unequivocably women.
Each of these interpretations is commonly meant, and many transgender activists would condemn them all. Do you agree? How would you respond to someone who argues for the 2nd or 3rd?
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Lost247365
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Lost247365
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4:03 AM - Aug 12, 2018 #3

apm77 wrote: Now this raises a question I've been waiting for a chance to ask.

When you hear someone say that trans women are not women, what do you hear?
  • It might mean that trans women are men.
  • It might mean that trans women are in a class of their own, not exactly men, not exactly women.
  • It might mean that gender is context-dependent, and that even if trans women are women in some or most contexts, there are also contexts where trans women should not necessarily be classified as women. Therefore trans women are not unequivocably women.
Each of these interpretations is commonly meant, and many transgender activists would condemn them all. Do you agree? How would you respond to someone who argues for the 2nd or 3rd?
Depends on the context.

Usually, on things like facebook or youtube comments sections the first is meant and it is obvious that they are going out of their ways to just antagonize people.

The second is meant usually by people trying to be moderates.  I would agree with them provide that they classified them as a sub-group of their identified gender.  But, I disagree entirely on them not being their target gender and something seperate altogether.

The third I usually hear from people trying to make an argument from biology...and those people usually don't know the first thing about biology.  They seem to think that biology only cares about chromosomes when in fact biology actually breaks things down to phenotype and genotype and acknowledges even there that those designations are far from perfect.  There people who have a male genotype and female phenotype (CAIS females) and vis versa (De La Chappelle Syndrome).  There are chimeras and intersex.  

No matter how you look at it, sex or gender, biology or pyschology, these issues are not binary.
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Lain
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Lain
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5:54 AM - Aug 12, 2018 #4


Lost247365 wrote:  No matter how you look at it, sex or gender, biology or pyschology, these issues are not binary.[/font][/color]
Almost everything that means anything in this world isn't binary.

Most binary things are purely imaginary.

Your mind is software. Program it.
Your body is a shell. Change it.
Death is a disease. Cure it.
Extinction is approaching. Fight it!

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Lain
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Lain
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6:46 AM - Aug 12, 2018 #5

My fifty cents.

* Transwomen are a subset of women and may have whatever career, mannerisms and hobbies they like.
* Transwomen are a subset of female population, with their biological differences and similarities.
* Transwomen are a subset of male population, with their biological differences and similarities.
* Transwomen may be a subset of men, if they desire to identify as such in one context or another.
* Transwomen are women AND something else, due to their unique upbringing, struggles and perspectives. That something else? They are transwomen.

Points is that online when you have that kind of conversation, you're either having derail or it's new question - either by somebody, who can't wrap their head around the idea, somebody, who doesn't want to wrap their head around the idea, or a troll who doesn't care where to crap.

If it's a derail, your main objective is to get back on track without make it feel, like you've got a hit and couldn't handle a blow. Better respond quickly, precisely and bavked with cited sources - the one who asked may study them at their own leisure.
If it's random person you have a random conversation and for some reason you want them to understand, your best bet is to establish a connection, so they wouldn't see you as an enemy and your arguments as attacks. If you both are getting unreasonanle - better to cut the conversation short.

My point is that yes, all statements are true, but it doesn't have much to do with opportunity to make huge favor by a minor adjustment of address and let the doctors and philosophers handle the particulars of biology and boundaries.
Your mind is software. Program it.
Your body is a shell. Change it.
Death is a disease. Cure it.
Extinction is approaching. Fight it!

© "Eclipse Phase" by Posthuman Studios
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apm77
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9:00 AM - Aug 12, 2018 #6

My comments on this thread should be seen as connected to my comments on the please sign this petition thread.

Just yesterday morning on Twitter, I saw via a retweet that @_Jack_Graham_ wrote: "Trans women are women. Trans men are men. If you have even the faintest doubt as to the truth of those statements then you are currently beyond the pale of civilised discussion and should fuck off, shut up, and do some hard listening."

I get what he was trying to do, but I don't think it was a helpful thing to say. By all means go after the self-righteous denialists, but going after people with "the faintest doubt" can only result in honest searching people being afraid to ask questions. Even if someone fully accepts that most trans women are women in most contexts — including the context of everyday social interactions — but is unsure where the boundaries are or what it all means philosophically, that counts as having "the faintest doubt". Even if it's not what he meant, people will feel included in that. And as humans I think we are all, or should be, philosophers.
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Giveandtakeit
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9:52 AM - Aug 15, 2018 #7

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Giveandtakeit
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12:39 PM - Aug 15, 2018 #8

Ok so now that my posts are working. I think this is not a valid debate. Why because you will never get people to understand it until they are effected personally by it.
Im transgendered, i present male due to the face it will effect my income if i let the world know. Im at an age where its too late for me to look female and yet i am mentally, emotionally and mostly sexually. I am a attractive male , built far better then most males but am female inside in almost every aspect. My point here is this. Since i am only attracted to for sake of discussion Gen women and trans women but not males at all i have run into issues with how i look vs feel.
Lesbians are pretty much accepted by men, not exactly liked unless a 3some is present. They are excepted by gen women, because almost 80%of women have had at least 1 expierence though they denie it, stitistics dont lie. Gay men are excepted by women but made fun of behind their backs by them yet are not accepted by men or ignored. Now lets talk about trans m2f and f2m. Both are not really excepted. Women except f2m's as they see them as lesbians but do not really except m2f's , i think because of feeling threatened. Its primal feminine agression and the more alpha the gen woman the more a trans woman is treated harshly. With these mentalities and hardwired processes its hard to change ones minds on this topic.
Further more, we judge each other in the community just as harshly. As i mentioned i have run into issues with dating. When talking to a gen woman i do not tell her upfront. When talking to a trans woman as soon as she hears i only feel confident and complete when wearing at least lipstick or light makeup or that i know the comfort in a nice fitted dress she repells me immediately. Often saying im not into women. If talking to a trans lesbian i hear im not into men. As for gen women you could be straight but not alpha and sooner or later an alpha has her screaming his name while your at work busting your ass for her. I know this to be very true with many women because as i said i present very alpha male.many say, thank god a real man. And its so hard to find a real man now a days. I find this funny since i enjoy being filled as much as they do. They just dont realize that.
All this said is to say, we need to stop judging each other in our community and have acceptance of each other first, then maybe we can get the rest of the worl to listen.

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