The Zoo - The political debate thread

Joined: October 3rd, 2013, 4:59 pm

June 19th, 2017, 7:05 am #8551

It sounds like Megyn Kelly did a pretty good job exposing Alex Jones as the nutcase he really is. It is frightening that he has the ear of the President.

BTW, speaking of Alex Jones, I am starting to notice a disturbing trend on that crazy fringe of the right to suddenly paint Soldiers as part of the machine and should not be trusted. BTW, I realize the left has a lunatic fringe as well and will say normal conservatives are some of the most patriotic people you could ever hope to meet. If it was just one person I would write it off too but since all my patients know I am in the reserves now after last years mobilization I am getting to see a darker, more paranoid view of the Army from a small percentage of people. One patient last week who was angry when the news came out from Alex Jones that Megyn Kelly had not been flattering mentioned how I was part of the problem. What problem I asked? He went down a rabbit hole of government conspiracy that ended with the Army implementing martial law and forcing Christians to accept gay people or some weird thing like that. I tried to explain how the Federal Army can not be used on US soil per the constitution and how the National Guard, who can implement martial law, are under the Governors of the state and not the President but it became clear I was trying to bring reason to irrational fear. What is still strange to me is the patients I find usually hate the government are the ones who receive the most from it. This guy I mentioned above was on Medicaid and probably food stamps. It is just weird.
"Gentlemen, touchdowns follow blocking as sure night follows day" -Gen Neyland
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Joined: September 4th, 2012, 7:16 pm

June 19th, 2017, 7:44 am #8552

I'm starting to see a little crack developing in Trump's wall o support. My small sample size is showing that there are some questions. When a couple o people have started babbling about how much Trump has lowered taxes and i ask how much their paycheck has gone up, there is some hesitation and no Obama, Hillary as an answer.
When there finally is some legislation passed, reality o how much it hurts will open the crack wider.
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Joined: October 3rd, 2013, 4:59 pm

June 19th, 2017, 8:54 am #8553

The healthcare bill is just awful too. It really does not satisfy anyone. If you truly believe the government has no business being in healthcare this plan does not eliminate Obamacare. If you believe the government should provide an affordable healthcare option this puts it much further out of reach. In all honesty because of those two reasons the bill is probably dead in the Senate, but how are the angry anti-Obamacare crowd going to feel when they go to the polls and the Republican dominated legislature has failed to repeal it?
"Gentlemen, touchdowns follow blocking as sure night follows day" -Gen Neyland
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Joined: September 4th, 2012, 7:16 pm

June 19th, 2017, 8:56 am #8554

I guess we have to see the secret Senate plan to know?
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Joined: October 3rd, 2013, 4:59 pm

June 20th, 2017, 5:07 am #8555

I have decided to use this wheel with the next news of violence. The Religious crazy part should take about 3/4 of the chart though:

"Gentlemen, touchdowns follow blocking as sure night follows day" -Gen Neyland
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Joined: September 4th, 2012, 1:50 pm

June 20th, 2017, 5:16 am #8556

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don't forget Trump crazy ...
Alabama: Heart of the South
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Joined: August 30th, 2012, 2:29 pm

June 20th, 2017, 5:21 am #8557

It's the final day in the 6th district race down in Georgia. There are a few polls that show Osoff (D) with a slight lead, but those are BS polls. The traditional polsters show it even. The big question is who shows up for a runoff in the middle of the Summer? Right now it looks like everybody. Crazy high turn out in the early voting.

Anyway, I think I mentioned this earlier, but the real take away is that neither party could find a solid candidate. The Democrat is young and completely inexperienced, and doesn't even live in the district. The Republican (Handel) has that weird sleazy sort of religious nut feel, so she doesn't do well in the district. My dad says Handel has been everywhere the last two weeks shaking hands and being scene with popular politicians. If the Republicans could have found a smart successful business person to run and chased all of the little people out of the race, they would have won easily. As for the Democrats, they needed to find a moderate that lives in the district. Maybe a college professor.
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Joined: October 3rd, 2013, 4:59 pm

June 20th, 2017, 5:35 am #8558

One thing is for certain. The winner will claim it is a referendum for their party. The loser will claim it was the candidate and not a big deal.

I am telling you, talking to people here in this reddest of red states I don't think the Dems realize what a lost cause they really have. People in the red states have turned politics into a spiritual movement. The Democrats are baby killers and homosexuals in their mind and I do not see that changing anytime soon. The Dems either have to adopt a more populist agenda which could be bad for certain segments of our society or abandon the Red states entirely and focus on the swing states like Florida. Maybe I am just tainted living in the buckle of the Bible belt but what I see is people would vote for a child molester Republican over a saint of a Democrat because Democrats in their mind are evil and anti-American. It is an unwavering point.
"Gentlemen, touchdowns follow blocking as sure night follows day" -Gen Neyland
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Joined: September 4th, 2012, 7:16 pm

June 20th, 2017, 5:48 am #8559

Ossoff has lost some percentage points in the last week, so the early voting could be good for him. The dark money ads run on Handel's behalf may have hurt her, but we won't know until exit polls. Without much information on the deeply crunched data, my personal analysis would be that unless there is a 6% or more win, this doesn't really mean much. They have put conservative and ethically challenged men in Congress by large margins for 40 years, but Trump only won by 1%. Lot's of money spent there though.
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Joined: August 30th, 2012, 2:29 pm

June 20th, 2017, 11:09 am #8560

Trump only got 52% in the district, so I don't think it's really a referendum on him. Perhaps it's a divide opening up in the republican party where the better educated can't be duped with silly tweets about immigrants and the bible.

There is a severe thunderstorm rolling through the district right now and there is flash flood warnings. I got no idea who that helps.
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Joined: September 4th, 2012, 7:16 pm

June 20th, 2017, 12:05 pm #8561

Probably Handel. In a GOP district that has little enthusiasm for the candidate, low turnout is essential. He needs independents and Repubs who are worn out with Trump and think she is a tad weird.
Those 140,000 already in the bank takes on added significance.
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Joined: October 3rd, 2013, 4:59 pm

June 21st, 2017, 4:24 am #8562

Surprise, surprise, the Republican won in Georgia. Again, the Democrats need to realize they are despised in the red states. They have Pastors telling their congregations the Democrats are against Christians and Christian values. One could argue taking care of the poor and widows is what Christ actually discussed on his Earthly ministry, not once mentioning birth control, abortion or homosexuality, but you would get lynched.

While the Democrats get all hot an bothered over national polls which shows they have a lot of supporters in NY and California, they are in no position to regain power. They can't figure out that even if the Republicans hate Trump they hate the Democrats more. Until Democrats find a way to connect to 'Murica they will keep losing elections like this one and the right will remain in charge.
"Gentlemen, touchdowns follow blocking as sure night follows day" -Gen Neyland
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Joined: September 4th, 2012, 7:16 pm

June 21st, 2017, 4:42 am #8563

The surprise was the early voting results. They lost, I think, the in person vote and did not have the lead i absentees that we expected. That tells me that they had a moron running their voter accountability project. There is no good reason not to have early voting predictions to within a few hundred votes in a concentrated district like that. I think there are 3-4 counties in that district, but John Lewis' district is in part of one.
This is not a Trump district, but what it shows is that we have really drawn party lines in bold now. In an area that doesn't like Trump, they still will not elect a Dem. Bringing out the Pelosi voodoo doll is still a winner.
This doesn't mean anything in terms of legislation, really, but it does keep on vote in the pocket in case of impeachment.
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Joined: October 3rd, 2013, 4:59 pm

June 21st, 2017, 5:07 am #8564

Two questions for you:

1. Why do the Dems keep Pelosi around? Fair or not she has been demonized for so long that she her remaining in charge is better for the RNC than the DNC. I think replacing her would be a good start in winning some of the elections.

2. Why do the Dems seem so incompetent? We kept hearing that Hillary had this "dream team" around her and everything I am reading now about the election shows her campaign was horribly run. They just seem lost.

IMO the Dems need to pick their battles better too. Since the gay issue gets a lot of Christians to the polls I will use that one. After years of struggle gay rights finally were achieved under Obama. Even most Christians by that point agreed that laws against gays were ridiculous and were on board. Instead of letting that simmer for awhile and give the masses time to evolve Obama went straight to transgender issues. It was crazy aggressive too. Now I have to take classes in the Army on what words I can say around soldiers as to not offend a potential transgender. My niece's application to UT had 12 potential genders to pick from and one of the options was "other" I guess if you were still trying to figure it out. It was too much too fast and really played to the narrative I have personally heard numerous times in the Baptist churches I grew up in that if you allow gays to marry it will lead to worsening "perversions", men in your little girls bathrooms, the destruction of the family, etc. Again, you can disagree with that narrative all you want but for those people who truly believe it, and I mean believe at a Spiritual level, they are not only not going to vote for you but will adamantly tell others you are evil.

The other hot button, emotional issue, abortion is mishandled by the Dems horribly too. They are so aggressively prochoice they can make it seem like they like abortions. How hard would it be to accept a narrative of "we all would like to see the number of abortions drop in this country as it is always an emotionally draining issue for women and we plan to improve education and access to birth control to make that happen." You still will lose some Catholics with the birth control issue but for the majority of Protestants you have basically given a realistic plan to actually decrease abortions.

I am rambling more than I meant but at the end of the day until Democrats figure out a way to connect to 'Murica, which they seem completely incompetent to do, they will continue to lose the elections that matter.
"Gentlemen, touchdowns follow blocking as sure night follows day" -Gen Neyland
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Joined: August 30th, 2012, 2:29 pm

June 21st, 2017, 6:56 am #8565

A couple thoughts on your ramblings....

- Great point about picking issues that matter. Gay rights for example doesn't resonate with that middle ground voter who might vote republican or democrat. Sure, they are for equality and fair treatment, but beyond that the issue isn't something that swings them. Nut can tell me I'm wrong, but I bet he falls in this category. I'm the left leaning equivalent. Neither of us are for any discrimination, but gay rights isn't something we chose a candidate based on.

- Transgender rights is a mess. It's tough to define what is the correct response. A lot of the details haven't been ironed out and the potential unintended consequences make people uncomfortable.

- I think the Democratic party needs to steal an idea from the other side and come up with a contract with america. Define what they will do if elected. The problem I realize now is they don't have anything to put in the contract. A great one would be serious campaign finance reform with the teeth to get the money out of politics. I can't see the current party leadership being for that. Sure, they would promise something vague, but nobody is buying their vague BS anymore.
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Joined: October 3rd, 2013, 4:59 pm

June 21st, 2017, 7:27 am #8566

Good idea on the contract for America. One of Hillary's issues is she never really made it clear what she stood for. I know it is tougher for the Democrats with a much more diverse voting base but they need to get their agenda, if they have one, out there. It should be the environment but the right has successfully convinced their people Global warming is either a hoax or not a big deal.
"Gentlemen, touchdowns follow blocking as sure night follows day" -Gen Neyland
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Joined: August 30th, 2012, 2:29 pm

June 21st, 2017, 10:32 am #8567

Global warming is similar to Gay Rights. I think almost everyone is for protecting the environment, but they don't vote based on that issue.

The Democrats need to remember the old saw "It's the economy stupid"and focus on working class jobs and job training. How about free or greatly reduced job training? Not college. Job training. Computer classes to welding classes.
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Joined: October 3rd, 2013, 4:59 pm

June 21st, 2017, 10:47 am #8568

It is what worked for Bernie. He captured the youth vote by going after college tuition. I agree with the Millenials too. Education prices have gotten too damn high. As I have previously mentioned just the difference between when my brother and I went to school in the late 80's/early 90's to now is insane. Since 1986 the cost of tuition has increased 1,120 percent per Forbes. It is going up 2 1/2 times inflation. I still don't think college should be free, they need to have some skin in the game, but it should not be crippling. Pretty much everyone in my Army Reserve Unit is there mainly due to college debt.
"Gentlemen, touchdowns follow blocking as sure night follows day" -Gen Neyland
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Joined: October 3rd, 2013, 4:59 pm

June 21st, 2017, 10:51 am #8569

More to your point I agree trade schools need to be beefed up. There is a real shortage of Electricians, plumbers, welders, etc. I actually think it is a better route to go as a young person today then a lot of bloated college majors.
"Gentlemen, touchdowns follow blocking as sure night follows day" -Gen Neyland
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Joined: August 29th, 2012, 6:49 pm

June 21st, 2017, 6:56 pm #8570

DocVOLiday wrote:More to your point I agree trade schools need to be beefed up. There is a real shortage of Electricians, plumbers, welders, etc. I actually think it is a better route to go as a young person today then a lot of bloated college majors.
Don't ever call me a fucking welder, I'm an Ironworker. All of the Union Trades need hands right now, I haven't seen work this good in a long time and it has nothing to do with this new administration, this work has been on the books for a while now. It's called skilled labor for a reason, the Unions train their people to know how to do the work that all of the rich fucks make their millions off of. Look at the track record of construction accidents in the State of Texas, where they said "fuck it we'll take our chances".This President, that say's he's for the working class, only means that in the sense that, " hey, fuck face, be glad you have a job " These shit heads want everyone to make money except for the people that actually break their backs so the rich fucks can get richer. Unions are here for a reason. It's called the Middle Class
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Joined: September 4th, 2012, 7:16 pm

June 21st, 2017, 7:17 pm #8571

And hail dis. For some reason, the middle class seems to like to kick themselves in their own ass. Too bad it doesn't jar their memory or knowledge of history.

OK Doc, do you honestly think if it wasn't Pelosi, everything would go away? When Chuck replaced Reid, just the name in the vitriol changed. pelosi is good at he job, has raised a millions or most Dems in congress and is fair in committee assignments. She will, however, be replaced affter'18. Gay rights? Climate change? because it's the right thing to do, it's that simple. As far as no longer an issue, are civil rights no longer an issue after 1964? Transgender rights? Sure, why not? I do have to say, i can't get my self righteousness up for that one. I do think all of those restrooms are a burden on small business. Just go where you want, I do not care.
Abortion? i have never herd a single person in my long life say that they like abortion. But, if that is the message received, it is some how the message given.
We tried job training, free or inexpensive college, veterans health rights, infrastructure, workfare/welfare - no traction whatsoever. There is no changing people's minds now. The term electoral politics is dead. It is now electoral herding. Find someone not so repulsive to many people that they will be at least willing to go out and vote for that person. Then get them to the polls.
Real issues do not matter any longer. Trump didn't get elected on real issues. he got elected because half his votes couldn't stand Hillary and the other half was split among hardcore racists, nationalists and just plain insane people. Hillary screwed it up in the rust belt. Robby Mook is a guy who is very good at state wide stuff, but wasn't ready or prime time. Hillary wasn't ready for prime time. As a party, we did what Republicans usually do - nominate the next person in line.
WE can't change many votes. The far right thinks that anyone who isn't for lynching Muslims, negroes, mexicans and weirdos in the street is a liberal. How do you appeal to that? bernie is not the answer. Elizabeth is not the answer. I love Mark Warner, Al Franken, Kristen Gillibrand, et. al. but after this mess the let is ready for blood. They are ready to nominate Fidel.
Campaign finance reform? That will have to come from the Supremes. You think the present one? Right. Very few pols are going to vote to take away their money and the Supremes looks like a Mussolini style court and it is going to get worse. With the laissez faire attitude about dark money and enforcing anything, good luck. look what happened when Obama did it.
Social media is a fine and valuable tool, but nothing beats an army of buses, vans and cars swooping down and dragging people out of their home and down to the school, church, etc. getting the Secretaries of State in Florida and Ohio on our side wouldn't hurt either. Those two states are more crooked than Chicago, Louisiana and Kentucky combined.
The final analysis? We're fucked
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Joined: August 29th, 2012, 6:49 pm

June 21st, 2017, 7:35 pm #8572

To the point that Doc was getting at, when I went on my rant, there isn't a damn thing wrong with people getting into the construction trades . I've made a good living out of it but it didn't come with any kind of free ride. I have run across countless people that went through college and then turned to construction to make a living
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Joined: September 4th, 2012, 7:16 pm

June 21st, 2017, 7:50 pm #8573

The only jobs I find anything wrong with are pimps, insurance executives, crack dealers and bra manufacturers. Well, there's more, but you get my drift.
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Joined: October 3rd, 2013, 4:59 pm

June 22nd, 2017, 4:16 am #8574

It is a little frustrating to me listening to the news driving in. You have the Republicans who went nuts when Pelosi and crew did Obamacare behind close doors without a bipartisan effort who are now doing the same thing. And you have the Democrats going nuts now that the Republicans are doing the same thing they did 8 years ago. It is just the latest example of why congressional approval numbers are so low. They are just children with motivated forgetting.
"Gentlemen, touchdowns follow blocking as sure night follows day" -Gen Neyland
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Joined: September 4th, 2012, 1:50 pm

June 22nd, 2017, 4:41 am #8575

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WHAT IS THE ALT - RIGHT? THE MOVEENT DEFINED.

In August 2016, Hillary Clinton delivered a speech where she denounced the alt-right, the radical fringe that was taking over Republican politics. Time was spent both during the campaign and in the aftermath of President Trump’s election attempting to explain the alt-right, a phenomenon embracing everything from frog memes on Twitter to neo-Nazis giving the “Sieg heil” salute at a Washington conference.

Enter Angela Nagle, a Dublin-based writer and academic. Nagle has spent the last eight years studying online cultures like the alt-right, their various subgroups and their rivals on the left, essentially becoming an anthropologist looking into some of the darkest corners of the Internet. In her new book, Kill All Normies: Online Culture Wars From 4Chan and Tumblr to Trump and the Alt-Right, she lays out her findings. She spoke with Yahoo News about how she defines the groups, what they think of Trump’s presidency so far and how to deal with online abuse when you’re covering these types of communities.

Yahoo News:
I think the best way to start for those who might not be familiar with this subject matter is the basic question of how do you define the alt-right?

Angela Nagle: Well if you ask the hardcore of the alt-right how they’d want to define it in terms of themselves, so they take a very strict definition. So they would say it would be people like Richard Spencer and the National Policy Institute, American Renaissance, people who want these particular goals like a white ethno-state. And they want to racially segregate society, essentially, and form an ethno-state. The media has tended to use a much broader definition to encompass everyone from [InfoWars host] Alex Jones to [former Breitbart staffer] Milo Yiannopoulos, and even [former Breitbart executive and current White House counselor] Steve Bannon.

I don’t think we should take their definition as the perfect one because why should we let them define the debate? But on the other hand sometimes I think it’s best to take the really strict definition because then you can avoid them being slippery about what they believe in. So in the strict sense the alt-right is a white nationalist or white segregationist kind of an ideology which is connected itself to various forums and online youth subcultures like 4chan and things like that.

In your book you use the term “alt light.” How would you describe them and what role do they play?

The alt light would be a pejorative term used by the alt-right to refer to people like Yiannapoulos, [Vice founder] Gavin McInnes, Mike Cernovich essentially all of the people closer to the kind of Breitbart side of things but who claim not to be racist. So the alt-right will say, quite comfortably, “Our politics is all about race,” while the alt light will say, “You know we are anti-racist and that’s why we don’t like identity politics.” They say they’re in favor of free speech and some kind of American nationalism and they accept the idea of American exceptionalism while the alt-right in the strict sense opposes it completely and says, “America is a racial nation pretending to be based on abstract ideas. “

One of the things you talk about is the banner that unites these different groups, and that is Trump. How are they reviewing the presidency so far?

They’re definitely disappointed in him because of the strikes in Syria, because of the pandering to Saudi Arabia and because he hasn’t really seen through any of the extreme anti-immigrant stuff that they hoped he would so far. In many ways the presidency is playing out at as a pretty typical presidency, it’s not as far right as they would have wanted.

If Trump can’t do it for them, where do these communities go going forward? Who do they look to, and for those who do have a political aim what’s their path for trying to enact it?

So far their whole approach has been there’s no point in just trying to move into formal politics; you have to change the culture. They’re constantly breaking taboos and making the way they speak about race more acceptable to pave the way for formal politics, trying to change the electorate. I mean NPI, Richard Spencer’s organization, is actually trying to be a policy institute — really propose particular policies — and while obviously they’re marginal, they are always kind of knocking on the door of establishment-right politics, showing up at CPAC and things like that.

So they definitely have aims in the long term to influence formal politics, but they’re still at the stage of influencing culture. In terms of policy, they would advocate for as little immigration as possible from outside of Europe and I think as little immigration as possible in general. To deport illegal immigrants and eventually to make it extremely difficult to gain citizenship, to incrementally have it so that the immigration rates to America fall.

People like Sean Hannity and others on the right have tried to make the “alt-left” a term. Is that a real thing and if it is how does it differ from the alt-right?


The alt-left is a term that has been used to mean very different things, but I think one particular interpretation is kind of taking over. I think what Sean Hannity means is just sort of loony left people…

Yeah, that kind of thing. I think now the term more often [describes] the socialist left, as I understand it. The anti-military-intervention, which would have been maybe Bernie Sanders supporters, and found itself very much in conflict with the liberal establishment left and liberal campus politics. It would describe people like [socialist outlet] Jacobin magazine, maybe [the podcast] Chapo Trap House, so I guess it would describe antiestablishment left.

How would you contrast the tactics between the two? Does the alt-left descend into the level of harassment we’ve seen during things like GamerGate?

No, they’re not similar at all. They’re only similar in that they’re both antiestablishment, they’re both kind of marginal and they both end up often making similar critiques of the liberal center. So there is this funny thing where people from the alt-right will end up sharing tweets from quite hard-left people not knowing what their background is. So journalists who have coined that are not making it up. I mean there is a real thing there, there is an antiestablishment left, but it doesn’t behave like the alt-right. It doesn’t make a habit of threatening people and harassing people over kind of culture wars issues.

You write about the symbiotic relations between the alt-right and what you call Tumblr left. How would you describe that group, why are they sort of feeding off each other in the way that you believe they are?

When I started looking at these things that I look at in the start of the book, they were all very much based on youth online subcultures. The people in them were quite young, you know, you’re talking about some teenagers, maybe early undergrads at most. So often on the right-wing kind of fan forums they would share images of people on Tumblr and the people on Tumblr would be very much into identity politics, they might be very playful about gender politics and taking, I suppose, cultural liberalism if you like to the next level.

But the style of politics that emerged from Tumblr went on to form the politics of the group of people who are now sort of in their mid-20s and so influenced campus culture hugely. If you look at the campus wars of last few years, the politics of the left-liberal side of the campus wars, anti-free-speech, people who demonstrated against visiting speakers like Christina Hoff Sommers or Milo — their style of politics was influenced by having sort of grown up on places like Tumblr.

You’ve talked about how these communities have coordinated to threaten people, especially women. Since you’ve started studying and writing about them, have you received threats or had to change your online style? How do you deal with this on a daily basis?

By the time I started really publishing stuff, enough journalists had been writing about the alt-right that I wasn’t the only one, so I’ve never become a central focus for them. I do of course get some abuse, they wrote about me on [the white supremacist website] Daily Stormer, for example and so I would get at least one abusive message every day, but I just block people. I have good security on all my social media stuff, I’m very private, I’m very careful and that’s about all I can do really.

What kind of feedback do you get from them?

A bunch of them gave my book one star on Amazon and wrote some bad reviews, but they were mostly funny, unintentionally funny. One of them was angry that I mixed Greek and Latin, for example, and it wasn’t even my term. They’re very protective of their subculture, so they tend to think you’re some kind of, like, careerist charlatan that’s trying to piggyback on their fame but if they knew, like, how little indie publishing earns you, they wouldn’t be worried about my motivations.

What got you started going down the path of studying this?

I did a PhD on a related topic, online anti-feminist movements. And the reason I wanted to study them was because I saw a kind of style of really antifeminist politics emerging that didn’t look like any previous antifeminism. It wasn’t Christian conservative, it wasn’t antiabortion, in fact it almost looks very countercultural — it looks like kind of almost punk as it’s irreverent, it’s rude, it’s kind of libertine, and I thought that was really interesting. I just had a sense it was going to go somewhere and then had a certain energy behind us, and so I just looked at all of those movements and they just grew and grew and then they started producing people like Elliot Rodger*, and increasingly the politics of race started to become more and more prominent. You even had, for example, big sort of antifeminist figures who are not anonymous, and many of them, they started to talk more and more about race and the idea of feminism as the agent of civilization collapse.

* Eliot Rodger killed six people at the University of California, Santa Barbara in 2014. Rodger killed himself, but left behind a manifesto full of misogynistic and racist writing.

Some of these communities contain a lot of rough stuff, as far as violent porn, language and abuse. How do you wind down after studying this?

I feel like I’ve started to wind down already. I’ve written a book about an eight-year or so period, and things change so fast in the cultures that I’m looking at, if you kind of look away for a minute it’s already changed. In some ways I feel like my book is out there and I’ve made a kind of contribution to understanding the subcultures.

When this story about the “OK” hand sign broke, I simply couldn’t bear, it was like listening to the same story for the hundredth time, I couldn’t bear to read it. They trick the media, the media thinks, “Oh no, we’ve been tricked, we have to show we’re kind of knowledgeable about this subculture,” and then in some way they reinforce the values of the subculture.


https://www.yahoo.com/news/anthropologi ... 57529.html
Alabama: Heart of the South
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Joined: September 4th, 2012, 7:16 pm

June 22nd, 2017, 5:05 am #8576

DocVOLiday wrote:It is a little frustrating to me listening to the news driving in. You have the Republicans who went nuts when Pelosi and crew did Obamacare behind close doors without a bipartisan effort who are now doing the same thing. And you have the Democrats going nuts now that the Republicans are doing the same thing they did 8 years ago. It is just the latest example of why congressional approval numbers are so low. They are just children with motivated forgetting.
There were over 100 hearings in the house and Senate before Obamacare was rolled out. The AMA, insurance lobby and other stakeholders had input. That is the main reason it is so lawed. Now lobbyists rom insurance and financial services companies are writing this one. The bill went to a vote in the spring of '10. If you recall, the initial complaint wasn't secrecy, it was that GOP senators and reps said it was too long and hard to understand.
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Joined: October 3rd, 2013, 4:59 pm

June 22nd, 2017, 5:31 am #8577

Ironically, I will probably come out better under the Republican plan. I kind of wish I had the sense of entitlement many in my family does. I wish I could justify making more money by simply saying I work hard. I went to med school and residency was rough so I deserve to make more money while asthmatic kids can't afford their inhalers. Honestly, my life would be easier if I could just just say "screw it! I am buying a bigger boat!"
"Gentlemen, touchdowns follow blocking as sure night follows day" -Gen Neyland
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Joined: September 4th, 2012, 7:16 pm

June 22nd, 2017, 5:38 am #8578

Working in the coal mine for 40 years is pretty hard too.
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Joined: October 3rd, 2013, 4:59 pm

June 22nd, 2017, 5:52 am #8579

You are touching on a nerve with me on that one. I can't even began to tell you how many fat, entitled ceo's I had in Hilton Head. Always complaining about the lazy working class always looking for a handout. I wanted to say you are already retired at 55 with millions of dollars and play golf every day while most people back in Eastern Kentucky will work the mines until they drop. The way I look at it is because of the separation of wealth increase in our nation the haves need to justify having so much more than the have nots so they convince themselves the have nots are either morally bankrupt or just lazy.
"Gentlemen, touchdowns follow blocking as sure night follows day" -Gen Neyland
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Joined: September 4th, 2012, 7:16 pm

June 22nd, 2017, 6:04 am #8580

I know. I hear it all of the time as well. They should get better jobs, etc. Because of the varied interests I've had in my life, I've probably hung with more uber rich guys than the average hippie. The same guy who doesn't mind paying his QB 20 mill a year balks at paying the brick toter in his construction business more than $12 per hour.
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Joined: August 29th, 2012, 6:49 pm

June 22nd, 2017, 6:55 pm #8581

Back on my soap box for a minute. My son, that tried the college route and didn't fair so well, got into the International Brotherhood of Electrical Workers last year. I didn't want my boy getting into the Ironworkers because of the danger and such. He is in a much better Union, that he will make a better living doing. I'm proud of my kid
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Joined: September 4th, 2012, 7:16 pm

June 22nd, 2017, 7:16 pm #8582

The IBEW is a great union. Every shop steward, local and state leader I've met work for their membership. I never heard members bitch about the union. I think even their pensions are intact. Good for your son.
I was in the city workers, blah, blah union a long time ago. They sucked. my maternal grandfather was in the Ironworkers in the 30s and 40s, until he moved into management. He was still loyal until his death.
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Joined: August 29th, 2012, 6:49 pm

June 22nd, 2017, 7:21 pm #8583

Well then he was in the Ironworkers when they earned every penny they made. Nothing was easy in those days
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Joined: August 30th, 2012, 2:29 pm

June 22nd, 2017, 8:04 pm #8584

disenter wrote:Back on my soap box for a minute. My son, that tried the college route and didn't fair so well, got into the International Brotherhood of Electrical Workers last year. I didn't want my boy getting into the Ironworkers because of the danger and such. He is in a much better Union, that he will make a better living doing. I'm proud of my kid
You should be proud.
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Joined: September 4th, 2012, 1:50 pm

June 22nd, 2017, 8:55 pm #8585

.
by creekdweller » Thu Jun 22, 2017 8:38 am

Working in the coal mine for 40 years is pretty hard too.

working long back breaking hours, unsafe working conditions,being paid in company script, exorbitant prices charged at the company store,and Black Lung, .... scabs and violence when trying to unionize so we could have a better life .... the owners got rich off our blood sweat and tears ... and never gave us anything that we didn't fight for ...
Alabama: Heart of the South
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Joined: September 4th, 2012, 1:50 pm

June 23rd, 2017, 2:08 pm #8586

.

The health bill might pass because Trump has launched the era of Nothing Matters politics


When in doubt, lie and distract.


The health care bill unveiled by Senate Republicans Thursday morning should, by the standards of the normal laws of politics, have approximately a snowball’s chance in hell of passing.

One well-known fact of American politics is that it is extremely hard, in general, to roll back substantial welfare state programs that are already in existence and already delivering concrete benefits to American citizens. A separate fact is that interest groups are influential in the congressional process, and can often shape legislation to suit their interests or block legislation that doesn’t fit their interests. A third fact is that public opinion matters — if you’re going to override the interest groups, you’re going to need the public on your side. And a fourth fact is that though they often fail to deliver, politicians generally make a good-faith effort to implement their campaign promises.

The Better Care Reconciliation Act that Mitch McConnell revealed to the public today fails on all those tests. It should be deader than dead. Not meaningless, by any means, but simply a vehicle that hardcore conservatives in safe districts can use to vent, while more pragmatic members of Congress try to think of a sensible plan B, like working with red-state Democrats on some kind of bipartisan health bill.

But it’s not dead. It might fail, but the chances of passage are very real — with most advocates on both sides now believing the GOP will succeed. Because ever since Donald Trump rode down the escalator at Trump Tower to say he was running for president to stop Mexico from flooding our country with rapists and murderers, nothing about the laws of political gravity have been operating the way they’re supposed to. A fairly transparent grifter got himself elected president of the United States with 2 million fewer votes than his opponent, so anything can happen.



This bill shouldn’t be able to pass

Though more cautious across some dimensions than its predecessor in the US House of Representatives, the BCRA retains the same fundamental structure.

Donald Trump’s explicit campaign promise to eschew cuts to Medicaid is thrown overboard in favor of drastic reductions. Promises that Mitch McConnell himself — and many other Republican legislators besides — made to address the high deductibles experienced on the Affordable Care Act exchanges are betrayed in favor of a program that will push people into even higher-deductible plans. Protections for patients with preexisting conditions are stripped away, as are financial protections that limit older Americans’ exposure to sky-high insurance premiums.

The result is legislation that’s opposed by America’s hospital groups, by the AARP, and by virtually every relevant interest group under the sun. It also polls dismally, even as Obamacare has finally become modestly popular legislation now that it’s under scrutiny.

Under the circumstances, it’s not surprising that the unveiling of the bill was met with a chorus of objections and concerns from various Republican senators plus unanimous opposition from Democrats. After all, you simply can’t pass legislation like this. A newly elected president with a strong mandate and the public at his back can defeat interest group opposition. A president can fulfill pledges to key interest groups even in the face of bad polling. And elected officials can break promises to cater to public opinion or interest group demands. But obviously you can’t break your key promises in order to support a bill that is unpopular and opposed by the major relevant stakeholders.

Except it worked in the House, and there’s every reason to believe the same dynamic could proceed in the Senate.

Water flowed uphill to get Obamacare repeal through the House

The original draft of Paul Ryan’s American Health Care Act failed rather spectacularly.

House leaders believed that to be politically viable, the AHCA had to retain a fig-leaf version of protections for patients with preexisting conditions. That alienated some on the right wing of the caucus who wanted insurance industry deregulation along with big spending cuts. But meanwhile, the AHCA was too harsh for a critical clutch of more moderate Republicans, who worried that the massive losses in insurance coverage the bill entailed violated the promises Republicans had been making to the American people that they were going to replace Obamacare with something better.

The basic problem was the GOP’s years-long campaign against Obamacare had been so suffused with lies that there was no way to fulfill them consistent with the true, but rarely stated, objective of delivering a massive tax cut.

The repeal drive looked dead. But then a funny thing happened. Republican leaders agreed to push the bill to the right by substantially undermining the regulatory protections. That got the House Freedom Caucus on board. And that, paradoxically, got the moderates on board. Even though the new draft of the bill was even harsher on coverage, at the end of the day nobody wanted to have the death of the repeal push on their hands.

So an unpopular bill that didn’t do what Republicans promised their bill would do passed in the face of interest group opposition only after being made even more extreme. Right now, the Senate bill is in roughly the same shape — facing opposition on both sides. It should be impossible to square the circle, especially given the poor fundamentals. But then again, Donald Trump is president.

In Trumpmerica, nothing makes sense

Passage of anything like this bill would offend the laws of political gravity. But then so did Donald Trump winning the Republican Party nomination.

And while we’ve long known that basically anyone who wins a major party nomination stands a decent shot of winning a presidential election, Trump really did not look like he was going to be that guy. He performed poorly in nationally televised debates, his campaign was rocked by the revelation that he told a casual acquaintance on tape that he routinely sexually assaults women, a huge number of his own party’s senators said they wouldn’t vote for him, he was facing a pending trial for fraud, and on the morning of Election Day, everyone — including his own team — thought he was going to lose.

But he won. And he did so in a bizarre way, winning the Electoral College fairly comfortably despite having lost the popular vote by a much larger margin than George W. Bush did.

Since taking office, his signature values — showmanship, shamelessness, and corruption — have spread like kudzu in official Washington. It’s now a country where Cabinet secretaries go on television to lie and claim that a $600 billion cut to Medicaid won’t cause anyone to lose coverage. It’s a country where the speaker of the House introduces an amendment to erode protections for patients with preexisting conditions and then immediately tweets that it’s just been “VERIFIED” (by whom?) that the opposite is happening. Republican senators who a couple of months ago were criticizing the House bill’s Medicaid cuts as too harsh are now warming up to a Senate bill whose cuts are even harsher.

The watchwords of Trump-era politics are “LOL nothing matters.” If you’re in a jam, you just lie about it. If you’re caught in an embarrassing situation, you create a new provocation and hope that people move on. Everything is founded, most of all, on the assumption that the basic tribal impulses of negative partisanship will keep everyone on their side, while knowing that gerrymandering means Republicans will win every toss-up election. If you happened to believe that Republicans in office would deliver on their health care promises, well, you might be interested in a degree from Trump University.


https://www.vox.com/policy-and-politics ... yptr=yahoo
Alabama: Heart of the South
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Joined: September 4th, 2012, 7:16 pm

June 23rd, 2017, 2:14 pm #8587

Right now 5 Repubs say they will not vote for this version. It only takes two.
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Joined: September 4th, 2012, 7:16 pm

June 23rd, 2017, 4:28 pm #8588

To whom it may concern: She's all yours now.
http://elink.thedailybeast.com/click/99 ... 0C0bd7407c
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Joined: October 3rd, 2013, 4:59 pm

June 23rd, 2017, 4:41 pm #8589

Which is worse for the Republicans, taking it to a vote and losing or not taking it to a vote at all?

IMO, if I were the RNC I would kill this bill and come out and say you wanted to work with Dems, docs, patients, hospitals, insurances and pharma to create a real and lasting solution to our national healthcare crisis. Could you imagine?
"Gentlemen, touchdowns follow blocking as sure night follows day" -Gen Neyland
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Joined: September 4th, 2012, 7:16 pm

June 23rd, 2017, 4:54 pm #8590

That would kill them in the primary. They aren't worried about getting beat by Dems, they are worried about fellow Repubs.
They were elected to punish the poor, anything less is not acceptable.
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Joined: September 4th, 2012, 1:50 pm

June 24th, 2017, 3:38 am #8591

.
They were elected to punish the poor, anything less is not acceptable.

Alabama: Heart of the South
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Joined: August 29th, 2012, 6:49 pm

June 24th, 2017, 9:16 am #8592

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Joined: October 3rd, 2013, 4:59 pm

June 26th, 2017, 7:52 am #8593

It looks like others are saying what I said above about the Democrats: https://www.usatoday.com/story/opinion/ ... 423269001/

I agree some kind of autopsy is needed. Let me put the Georgia loss in perspective. That district is the 6th highest educated district in the country only behind places like Manhattan, Silicon valley and the district in Va near the Pentagon. These are not the trailer trash Jerry Springer folks that I think many Democrats think populate the red states. These were educated people who are more than capable of discerning Trump's insanity. I find it amazing that many liberal writers are celebrating the loss because it was closer than the previous election but since Trump has been elected the Dems keep getting their asses handed to them. They have to get on message and get new leadership.
"Gentlemen, touchdowns follow blocking as sure night follows day" -Gen Neyland
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Joined: September 4th, 2012, 7:16 pm

June 26th, 2017, 12:20 pm #8594

That district has been a solid R for 40 years. What that election showed is that they are still solid R, just not real enamored with T. What, to me, is the shocker is how close the Ds came in SCAR. I like the message, just not the way it is delivered. I look at the bench for leadership and am not thrilled. Pelosi is excellent at her job, but she's such a lightning rod. When you are tryingt o mount a comeback, you don't pinch hit a guy who hits .222, you keep the solid .274 hitter.
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Joined: September 6th, 2012, 5:33 am

June 26th, 2017, 3:28 pm #8595

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Joined: October 3rd, 2013, 4:59 pm

June 27th, 2017, 9:08 am #8596

Is anyone else seeing Reagan/Bush stickers popping up? I am not sure if it is a local phenomenon but I am seeing a lot of vehicles with new Reagan/Bush campaign stickers on them. Is it just a nostalgia thing or is it a way to subtly say I am a Reagan Republican not a Trump dumb ass?
"Gentlemen, touchdowns follow blocking as sure night follows day" -Gen Neyland
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Joined: August 29th, 2012, 6:49 pm

June 27th, 2017, 3:47 pm #8597

Sean Hannity Says He And Newt Gingrich Have Been ‘Sole Voice’ Of ‘Sanity In The Media’
Fox News host Sean Hannity holds himself and former House Speaker Newt Gingrich (R-Ga.) in extremely high regard.

During his show Monday night, Hannity had a discussion with Gingrich about how the duo has been covering the investigations and scandals of Donald Trump’s administration.

“I kinda feel in many ways we’ve been ― and you’ve been included in this and you’ve been an enormous help with great analysis ― we’ve almost been a sole voice here of sanity in the media,” Hannity said.

The comment came after Gingrich called Hillary Clinton and former FBI Director James Comey “stupid.”

Hannity continued his self-aggrandizing by saying he and Gingrich “saw a problem with the tarmac and [Attorney General] Loretta Lynch,” “the investigation versus mission,” and “we saw the unhealthy conflicts with Comey and [Special Counsel Robert] Mueller.”

Gingrich went on to lambaste Mueller’s “conflicts of interest” and question how any “reasonable person could have any faith” in his team. Hannity then brought it all back around with a call to investigate Clinton’s emails ― again.
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/entry/sea ... mg00000009
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Joined: August 30th, 2012, 2:29 pm

June 28th, 2017, 9:20 pm #8598

DocVOLiday wrote:It looks like others are saying what I said above about the Democrats: https://www.usatoday.com/story/opinion/ ... 423269001/

I agree some kind of autopsy is needed. Let me put the Georgia loss in perspective. That district is the 6th highest educated district in the country only behind places like Manhattan, Silicon valley and the district in Va near the Pentagon. These are not the trailer trash Jerry Springer folks that I think many Democrats think populate the red states. These were educated people who are more than capable of discerning Trump's insanity. I find it amazing that many liberal writers are celebrating the loss because it was closer than the previous election but since Trump has been elected the Dems keep getting their asses handed to them. They have to get on message and get new leadership.
This is a great article that highlights how the Democratic Party hasn't tried to win districts like the 6th: https://www.currentaffairs.org/2017/06/ ... acceptable

To me, this nails it. They ignored it and when it was vulnerable the best they could do with their "local knowledge" was a 30 year old guy with zero experience that didn't live in the district. A real candidate wins it, but they don't have a clue who that person is in the 6th.
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Joined: October 3rd, 2013, 4:59 pm

July 11th, 2017, 9:15 am #8599

So, do we finally have the smoking gun? Donald Trump Jr just released an email that explicitly stated the Russians have damaging material on Hillary and want to give it to Trump as a sign of the Russian government support for his campaign and Trump Jr responded "I love it" then proceeded along with Manafort and Kushner to meet this lawyer. This is beyond collusion at this point. This is treason.
"Gentlemen, touchdowns follow blocking as sure night follows day" -Gen Neyland
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Joined: October 3rd, 2013, 4:59 pm

July 12th, 2017, 9:25 am #8600

I am only sharing this because it is carthartic. I had a patient this morning who went on the rave the media will not leave Trump alone and she does not believe this latest email. I pointed out the emails were released by Trump Jr himself and not by the media to which I got a puzzled look then the comment "this stuff happens all the time, the media is only pointing it out because it is Trump." So now the justification for collusion has begun. I really do not think there is anything Trump or his family could do at this point to lose the Republican support. They will justify anything.
"Gentlemen, touchdowns follow blocking as sure night follows day" -Gen Neyland
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