Paying College Athletes

sec realist
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Joined: August 29th, 2012, 6:09 pm

March 31st, 2018, 3:22 pm #1

Live with egrets, not regrets.
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Joined: September 4th, 2012, 11:23 am

April 1st, 2018, 5:19 am #2

#1: People that want to pay college athletes look at the top Power 5 programs and assume everyone operates at a budget that would allow this. They cannot. Most schools barely make ends meet and do not have the additional money to make this work without cutting non-profit sports. You would see baseball, soccer, wrestling, golf, softball, lacrosse, volleyball, etc struggle to survive.

#2: Unions for college athletes is a horrible idea...all it would do is create controversy. These kids are getting a free education and there is no reason to give them a voice that could result in strikes, walk outs, etc.

I get the argument of the money the NCAA makes but these athletes get plenty of perks. Tuition, food, room, board, stipends, clothing, shoes, etc etc etc
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Joined: August 10th, 2017, 5:39 am

April 1st, 2018, 6:03 am #3

Merritt,

There is crazy money in college football and basketball right now, and it's insane that very little of that money goes to the athletes.  Colleges could spend it on allowing kids to come back and finish their degrees for free or extended medical care or more scholarships in non revenue sports, but they don't.   Colleges are at a point where they can either share the money voluntarily or try to weather this movement.  If they choose to fight for ADs making millions per year then the athletes will find leverage and they will win.  Basically, the NCAA is fighting to keep an incredibly flawed system because it's incredibly profitable for them.  

1.  There is no reason true Power 5 conferences can't provide better benefits to their athletes.  They are rolling in money.  btw, it doesn't have to be a salary.  The rest of CFB can give less just like there are less scholarships in Div II and no scholarships in Div III.

2.  The kids are getting a free education, but the cost of that is way below their value to the school.  That's where this imbalance is coming from.  Like I said above, schools can share that revenue in a variety of ways.

btw, My oldest has a chance to swim in college, so I've had to start researching this.  She isn't good enough to swim at an elite swim program or anything post college.  What I've learned is the Div I scholarships are a joke.  Women's swim teams are limited to 14 scholarships and the team is generally 28 kids.  Half scholarships doesn't sound so bad!  But 75% of all Div 1 swim teams don't fully fund those 14 scholarships.  More like they give 14 2/3 scholarships to be divided among the 28 kids.The kid becomes an indentured servant for the $ equivalent of a part time job.  They force you into soft majors and they have a lot of mandatory volunteer workouts all for $10k a year.I've talked to 4 former Div 1 swimmers and they all are in grad school.  All 4 told me that if they had it to do over again they would have put more focus on academics in HS and swam at an elite academic school (Ivy League) with no scholarship.
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sec realist
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Joined: August 29th, 2012, 6:09 pm

April 1st, 2018, 7:09 am #4

Division one college baseball is much the same way - 11.7 scholarships divided between 25-27 players, all having to receive a minimum of 25% value.

My son has a coach who just graduated from college a baseball player. He couldn't take the kinds of course he wanted - as directed/encouraged by the coaching staff - and so he's now joined the Tampa police force. He wanted to be an engineer wanted to play baseball in college more. He had an average playing career, and now it's over. For that experience, he exchanged chasing the dream of becoming an engineer for the reality of being a cop.

He also has a son that a freshman at the same college. Not sure of his story, though. Probably the same.

Baseball lessons, travel team expenses, camps, costs of hotels and meals and equipment from the age of 8 through high school is very, very expensive. All for what? The chance at a 25% scholarship? That's nuts!!

The NCAA really does need to revisit what its doing with these athletes.

(Whatever changes are made - and changes will absolutely be made - needs to make it fair for all of the athletes across all of the sports. Yeah, it's great that UF football and basketball are where most of the money comes from but the other athletes are just as much part of the university.)
Live with egrets, not regrets.
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Joined: September 4th, 2012, 1:50 pm

April 1st, 2018, 8:31 am #5

there should be a legal binding contract , that says , if an athlete accepts a college scholarship, then they must play the entire 4 years for that school .... let the NBA foot the bill  for , a semi-pro league,  for athletes who want to skip college and go straight to the pro's ...
Alabama: Heart of the South
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Joined: September 4th, 2012, 11:23 am

April 1st, 2018, 9:12 am #6

I disagree...a lot of D-1 schools operate in the green. Heck at a The Citadel without games against Clemson we would not be able to operate and sports would be cut. Remember SoCon is D-1A in everything except football. Sure ACC and SEC schools would survive but lower conferences and mid-majors would struggle
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Joined: October 3rd, 2013, 4:59 pm

April 3rd, 2018, 4:22 am #7

nmerritt11 wrote: I disagree...a lot of D-1 schools operate in the green. Heck at a The Citadel without games against Clemson we would not be able to operate and sports would be cut. Remember SoCon is D-1A in everything except football. Sure ACC and SEC schools would survive but lower conferences and mid-majors would struggle
It was the same at Chattanooga while I was there.  That one beat down every year to a SEC school pretty much paid the entire athletic budget.  UTC had at the time one of the best girl's softball teams in the nation which would not have even existed if the football team did not take one for the team every year.  
Being a Vol fan is great except for a few Saturdays in the fall.
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Joined: August 10th, 2017, 5:39 am

April 3rd, 2018, 6:12 am #8

Who said the Citadel had to pay players?  

Power 5 teams have the money to pay.  Lower divisions wouldn't have to follow.
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Joined: September 4th, 2012, 11:23 am

April 3rd, 2018, 6:40 am #9

brown dog wrote: Who said the Citadel had to pay players?  

Power 5 teams have the money to pay.  Lower divisions wouldn't have to follow.
So basically you want to further the gap between Power 5 and everyone else? Essentially creating a new division?

Villinova just won the national title in basketball...they would not be able to keep pace and pay players to stay competitive. Loyola would never have the opportunity to make a run like that.

Also, just a few years ago Florida State's athletic department was on the verge of bankruptcy.

South Carolina just had to reduce their budget and redesign their football players complex because the initial design took them over the debt amount allowed by the state of South Carolina which is $200 million borrowed.

LSU football was being threatened to be a casualty of the budget crisis

It is easy to say "not everyone has to do it" but that goes against Title IX so they would have to eliminate that. When I went to The Citadel, I chose them because they were instate and a top 25-30 program at that time. I chose them over NC State, Anderson, and Virginia Tech. Looking back at that, it would have been tough for me to make that decision had I been getting a paycheck to wrestle. 

In basketball, baseball, soccer, etc there are non-power 5 schools that compete at a high level. You telling me that you want to kill Cal-state Fullerton's baseball program? Rice?

Coastal just won a national title in baseball they arent Power 5...

You just had two non-power 5 teams in the final 4.

Last year you had 1 and one in the finals

I think you get my point...
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Joined: August 10th, 2017, 5:39 am

April 3rd, 2018, 8:47 am #10

Why are athletic departments like FSU, SCAR, and LSU running out of money?  It's not because of a shortage of revenue.  It's because they spend everything they bring in and then some.  Putting more of that money towards the players would only give them less to waste.  

Loyola would have the same BB team with or without compensation because those kids weren't top prospects.  In BB we are really talking about letting the players negotiate their own shoe contracts.


btw, I'm actually not in favor of paying the players.  I think it's too difficult to draw the line between men's and women's sports and the lesser sports.  I am in favor of forcing schools to put the revenue towards the student athletes (5 year guaranteed scholarships, medical insurance, etc) and full scholarships for more sports.  

Our current system is causing schools to drop the non-revenue sports or atleast run them on a shoestring so the school can keep up in a meaningless arms race in football or BB.   It's wrong that a school with Clemson's resources cut their swimming program or that the U of Colorado doesn't have a baseball team.  How come UGA and Clemson only have enough money to support 19 varsity sports while MIT has 33?  Yes, MIT has no scholarships but they also have no revenue sports.

I'm also ok with players being able to make money off of their name/image and apparel contracts.  You would have been happy with a free pair of shoes at the Citadel while the best player on the Clemson basketball team might get $100k a year.  This stuff scales to value, so it's easy to implement across all schools.
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Joined: September 4th, 2012, 11:23 am

April 3rd, 2018, 9:18 am #11

brown dog wrote: Why are athletic departments like FSU, SCAR, and LSU running out of money?  It's not because of a shortage of revenue.  It's because they spend everything they bring in and then some.  Putting more of that money towards the players would only give them less to waste.  

Loyola would have the same BB team with or without compensation because those kids weren't top prospects.  In BB we are really talking about letting the players negotiate their own shoe contracts.


btw, I'm actually not in favor of paying the players.  I think it's too difficult to draw the line between men's and women's sports and the lesser sports.  I am in favor of forcing schools to put the revenue towards the student athletes (5 year guaranteed scholarships, medical insurance, etc) and full scholarships for more sports.  

Our current system is causing schools to drop the non-revenue sports or atleast run them on a shoestring so the school can keep up in a meaningless arms race in football or BB.   It's wrong that a school with Clemson's resources cut their swimming program or that the U of Colorado doesn't have a baseball team.  How come UGA and Clemson only have enough money to support 19 varsity sports while MIT has 33?  Yes, MIT has no scholarships but they also have no revenue sports.

I'm also ok with players being able to make money off of their name/image and apparel contracts.  You would have been happy with a free pair of shoes at the Citadel while the best player on the Clemson basketball team might get $100k a year.  This stuff scales to value, so it's easy to implement across all schools.
Aight I can go along with guaranteed scholarships, medical insurance (after having my neck injury especially), and more free rides.  That is something I can go along with.

The guaranteed scholarships is a slippery slope though. What if a player is essentially riding that. Not practicing hard, just doing enough to stay eligible, sitting out when they are hurt and not injured, and becoming a locker room issue? When you only have the money for a few scholarships for wrestling as an example, if that kid is on a 4 or 5 year guaranteed ride, you are essentially costing yourself from being competitive.

I just dont know the answer but too many people focus on the schools that have big time revenue, lots of cash flow, and spend it like they are printing it and that is a small percentage of schools in the NCAA. You're talking around 60 schools out of the entire NCAA
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sec realist
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Joined: August 29th, 2012, 6:09 pm

April 3rd, 2018, 5:56 pm #12

That competitive argument cuts both ways, though. Coaches can easily push players out that aren't as good as they'd hoped. I think that's horse shit.

Tough to balance those two points of view.
Live with egrets, not regrets.
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Joined: September 4th, 2012, 11:23 am

April 4th, 2018, 3:46 am #13

sec realist wrote: That competitive argument cuts both ways, though. Coaches can easily push players out that aren't as good as they'd hoped. I think that's horse shit.

Tough to balance those two points of view.
Agreed...Dabo does not process players and it frustrates fans but it’s part of that family culture. You do what you are supposed to and your scholarship is good until you earn your degree. I think Clemson is second to just Stanford in graduation rate during Dabos tenure. And most of the ones leaving early for the league even have their degree

It makes for smaller recruiting classes but it is working so...
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Joined: August 10th, 2017, 5:39 am

April 11th, 2018, 5:40 am #14

PAC paid a consultant to help them understand why their TV network money was lagging.

* In 2012, the Big Ten commanded $0.37 per sub, while the Pac-12 National network received $0.30.
* By 2017, the Big Ten’s average sub fee had jumped to $0.48, an increase of 30 percent, while the Pac-12 fee had dropped to $0.11.
That’s right: From $0.30 to $0.11 in the five-year span.
The PAC and Big12 might still combine.  Especially if they have to pay players.
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sec realist
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Joined: August 29th, 2012, 6:09 pm

April 11th, 2018, 6:18 am #15

I don't get the sense that PAC sports had near the following that SEC or Big 10 sports have.

Demand isn't there.

Fan interest is the driver.
Live with egrets, not regrets.
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Joined: August 10th, 2017, 5:39 am

April 11th, 2018, 8:55 am #16

The PAC doesn't have the fanatic fans.  
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Joined: October 3rd, 2013, 4:59 pm

April 11th, 2018, 9:33 am #17

One interesting PAC story is Washington just signed a huge deal with Adidas dropping Nike.  Who is Washington's biggest rival?  Phil Knights Oregon.  
Being a Vol fan is great except for a few Saturdays in the fall.
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Joined: August 10th, 2017, 5:39 am

April 23rd, 2018, 4:27 pm #18

This is a great article on the economics of college athletics and the wonky accounting they use.  The focus is on Eastern Michigan cutting non-revenue sports and how it won't actually save them any real money.  Here is a gem from the opening paragraph:
It’s a tale as old as the first time someone in Hollywood got paid a percentage of the net profits, accounting numbers that hide profit rather than reveal it.  Wildly successful movies manage to “lose money,” at least on paper.

The same is generally true of the way the NCAA’s “Agreed Upon Procedures” work to obscure profits in sports.  This can happen in big ways, like when Ohio State charges the Ohio State athletic department a $1 million Library Usage fee 
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Joined: October 3rd, 2013, 4:59 pm

April 24th, 2018, 5:50 am #19

If I am honest I think Universities are turning into the biggest scam artist in the country.  As I have mentioned before the cost of attending UT has increased 300% since I started there in '94.  According to the Bureau of Labor Statistics consumer price index, the dollar experienced an average inflation rate of 2.35% per year since 1990. Prices in 2017 are 87.3% higher than prices in 1990.  So the cost of attending college has increased at a rate 3x higher than inflation.   This is with colleges getting bigger and accepting more students, thus more revenue.  We may think colleges are liberal bastions of socialism but they have this capitalism thing down pat.  
Being a Vol fan is great except for a few Saturdays in the fall.
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Joined: October 3rd, 2013, 4:59 pm

April 25th, 2018, 8:48 am #20

If I am reading it right Condeleeza Rice's commission released today did not change much with paying players. 

I have been thinking about this.   A student can go to school on a band scholarship and still make money on the weekends playing in a band at the local bar.  An artist can get a full scholarship and still sell his art at the local art fare.  An athlete however can not profit at all from his talent.  No money for autographs.  No money from video games for their likeness.  No money on shirts with his name on it.  I think if a kid is good enough to profit on his talent he should have that right.  If EA Sports wants to pay them royalties for using their likeness in the next NCAA game, fine.  This way the kid can profit but it is not the University paying them.  And don't even start with the amateur vs professional argument.  Our NBA guys play in the "amateur" Olympics.  Since I am finally griping on this I also think kids should be allowed to return if they go undrafted.  Why put all the risk on the kid?  
Being a Vol fan is great except for a few Saturdays in the fall.
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Joined: August 10th, 2017, 5:39 am

April 25th, 2018, 10:34 am #21

There are now e-sport scholarships to play video games for the school in tournaments.  I'm serious.  
Esports has been around for nearly two decades, but is fairly new in the collegiate arena. There are more than thirty U.S. colleges and universities that offer scholarships for gamers, and the University of Utah is one of the larger sports schools to offer scholarships for video gaming. Its varsity Esports team competes at the popular and high-profile League of Legends competition. The university currently offers players partial video game scholarships, with the future goal of offering full video game scholarships to its gaming team. The University of California-Irvine similarly recruits students on partial video game scholarships and have even built a gaming arena for gamers and its school's 10-player team. Robert Morris University was the first college in the U.S. to offer video gaming scholarships, where students can earn up to $19,000 a year in gaming scholarships. Robert Morris University Esports athletes also don team uniforms and post-game meals, just like any other collegiate sports team.
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