For The One I Love page does not clarify canon couples

Your-Rain
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February 4th, 2013, 12:36 am #1

Something I've noticed a few months ago, but I didn't get a chance to bring it up.

I just want to say this straight out. It seems to me whoever translate the FTOIL, thought it would be smart to twist fans view point to make the page seem it was talking about canon couples. Also he/she twist there views points a lot furthur by giving out his/her so-called "evidence", saying that the paragraph underneath the Aerith date photo had no "special" or "pretty"words below it unlike the Highwind scene, which has "special" words underneath it, by explaining to the fans that since it was talking about the High Affection scene, it declares C/T canon :/

It's funny how fans didn't look deeper into this and notice that the FTOIL page is talking about romantic moments between the two characters, NOT canon couples. Also there would be no point to throw in the Aerith date picture among the rest of the "canon" couples or even have a page talking about the date scenes. And another thing, the reason why they choose to use Tifa's most memorable quote below the Highwind scene photo, because the high affection version is a romantic moment and was suited for that particular page, it would be silly to throw in the Low Affection quote, cause there's nothing romantic about it. Also SE won't have to mention that the Highwind scene has two different versions. So where does it clarify that C/T is canon? Come on it's not a hinting game, it's very straight forward, it's not rocket science to see that.

Also it should be noted that Aerith's most memorable quote has been mentioned many times, but does it mean that the Aerith date is the default version? No, it doesn't, if they hinted it to be the default version, then why they bothered to mention that the date has different versions of it?

I'm not trying to degrade that CloTi isn't a possible couple, just saying that the page was not canonizing the two, nor show any signs of them being the official pairing. The page was talking about the romantic moments in the game and they each have a page talking about those certain scenes and that's all to it, nothing major.

Note: If someone has already mention these before, please move this to the Thread Graveyard please, thanks. :aeris:


Actually, GreyGardens said the same thing just two days ago in the following post: GreyGardens - "Where Is Tifa Engraved" thread But I'm going to leave this thread - both posts make VERY good points. ~Aly


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JayM
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February 4th, 2013, 1:07 am #2

I've never been super-fond of the FTOIL arguments, m'self, but regarding the canonicity issue, I think because all of the other couples shown in the main section are canon in their respective games, it's not a ridiculous leap to assume the Cloud/Tifa section is likewise talking about a canon couple. However, none of the other scenarios given involve a love triangle, as far as I'm aware, so...

Regarding the Aeris date, the "special" text just means that there's nothing under the picture of the date mentioning Aeris in particular. The text is just that Cloud can date one of four people. However, there are plenty of people who ship Cloud/Tifa and don't have a problem with the Aeris date being canon (this actually came up a few pages ago on TLS).

I think in general people make a bigger deal out of that page than needs to be made. It doesn't really give any information that isn't elsewhere. My two cents. ^_^
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Shiva
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February 4th, 2013, 2:57 pm #3

The most logical conclusion from that page is that FFVII has a love triangle in which Cloud can be (under player control) made to show more interest in Tifa or Aerith. I mean, FFVII is the only game on that page to show the hero with two different women. This page doesn't tell us anything we didn't already know. And it sure as hell doesn't make CloTi canon any more than it makes ClAeris canon.
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Anastar
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February 4th, 2013, 4:13 pm #4

I added this link as an edit to your original post simply because I felt that BOTH posts make very good points: GreyGardens - "Where Is Tifa Engraved" thread. Basically, GreyGardens said the same thing, but nobody responded.

I think that both of you are absolutely right that the HW scene appearing on the FTOIL page doesn't make Cloti the canon romance while Clerith is not. After all, a picture of both pairings appears on the FTOIL page, and both pictures are labeled as having optional versions.

The amusing thing is that no other scenes pictured on the page are labeled as having optional versions - just the Cloti and Clerith pictures. To me, that says very clearly that both love scenes are optional, which means that both pairings are optional.

Besides - as you said - why would the Clerith picture even be included on the page if Clerith can't be considered a romantic couple?

I'm also tired of these arguments over which couple is canon along with arguments over whether the evidence given by SE means that the couple is canon or not. Cripes, if SE wanted us to know which couple is canon, they would portray the couple as canon.

IF SE wanted either couple to be canon, why not just show them kissing in a non-optional scene? Such a non-optional scene would have been easy for SE to show in either FFVII or AC/ACC.

In AC/ACC, SE could have easily shown Cloud returning home to the Seventh Heaven, taking Tifa in his arms, then kissing her IF SE wanted Cloti to be canon. In AC/ACC, SE could easily have Cloud see Aerith in the flower field as he's riding the bike during Calling and/or Safe&Sound, stopping the bike, approaching her, taking her in his arms, then kissing her IF SE wanted Clerith to be canon.

I really think arguing over these vague hints from SE about which couple is canon is silly - IF SE wanted us to know, we'd know already. After all, SE is very good at doing love scenes.

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Anti-R
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February 5th, 2013, 3:56 pm #5

JayM wrote: Regarding the Aeris date, the "special" text just means that there's nothing under the picture of the date mentioning Aeris in particular. The text is just that Cloud can date one of four people. However, there are plenty of people who ship Cloud/Tifa and don't have a problem with the Aeris date being canon (this actually came up a few pages ago on TLS).
Of course by dating Yuffie and Barret, Tifa's romance is just as nulled (because her and Aerith's points must be the lowest), and her night with Cloud in the HW scene is in low affection by default, Cloud only sees her as a friend and not a lover.

I find it ridiculous cloti shippers insist Aerith's date in the FTOIL isn't as valid, because of Yuffie and Barret, and act as if they never affected the HW night because it's not "written in the caption".

Am I the only one kinda ok with HAHW scene? Because based from AC, Cloud and Tifa really aren't meant to last with the two years they've been together. I can see them splitting up down the road.
Utada Hikaru wrote:Everybody finds love in the end.
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aerithbunny
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February 5th, 2013, 7:32 pm #6

I'm ok with the HAHW scene because after it, really didn't seem to matter imo
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Anastar
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February 5th, 2013, 10:18 pm #7

Anti-R wrote:I find it ridiculous cloti shippers insist Aerith's date in the FTOIL isn't as valid, because of Yuffie and Barret, and act as if they never affected the HW night because it's not "written in the caption".
I completely agree, Anti-R. In the first place, Barret and Yuffie aren't even part of the Love Triangle, since the only people confirmed to be part of the Love Triangle are Cloud, Aerith, and Tifa. That was stated in Aerith's profile in the FFVII Game Manual:

Young, beautiful, and somewhat mysterious, Aerith met Cloud while selling flowers on the streets of Midgar. She decided to join him soon after. Her unusual abilities enable her to use magic, but she seems more interested in the deepening love triangle between herself, Cloud and Tifa. ~Aerith's profile, FFVII Game Manual

Since Aerith and Tifa are the only people specified to be part of the Love Triangle along with Cloud, the Yuffie/Barret dates are inconsequential.

Furthermore, Tifa's profile in the 10th AU specifically said that Tifa and Aerith are/were "love rivals". There was no mention of Yuffie/Barret whatsoever.

As an added point, the two versions of the HW scene work basically the same way as having optional dates. If a player gets the LAHW scene, it's basically saying that Cloud and Tifa are not romantically involved. If Cloud and Tifa aren't romantically involved, then it's like Cloud going out on a date with someone other than Tifa.

So it's essentially the same mechanism. SE even specifically said so on three different occasions. All three quotes specifically say that the HW scene diverges into two conditions, according to Tifa’s affection rating with Cloud.

If which version of the HW scene you get depends on Tifa's affection rating with Cloud, then it's operating the same way as the Date scene - which date you gets depends on their affection rating with Cloud. Same difference.
Anti-R wrote:Am I the only one kinda ok with HAHW scene? Because based from AC, Cloud and Tifa really aren't meant to last with the two years they've been together. I can see them splitting up down the road.
aerithbunny wrote:I'm ok with the HAHW scene because after it, really didn't seem to matter imo
To me, the way Cloud and Tifa act toward one another in both CoT and AC/ACC indicate that the HAHW scene didn't happen. IMO, there's nothing whatsoever to indicate that romance exists between them - they are friends and nothing more.

I dunno if anyone remembers, but there was an article in a JP magazine released before AC which specifically said that Cloud and Tifa are "more than friends, less than lovers". Here's a pic of it:



I can't remember which magazine it was in, but I'm sure it wasn't released by SE. At any rate, that seems to be the most accurate description of Cloud and Tifa's relationship as portrayed in CoT, AC/ACC, and DoC that I've ever seen.

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GreyGardens
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February 6th, 2013, 2:50 am #8

1. If the context of the FTOIL page was discussing default versions to variable scenes, the TLS article claiming the LTD is over would make sense. But I see no reason to think the HAHW scene is canon just because a page discussing love includes the romantic version of a variable scene. That’s more like a “no sh*t Sherlock” moment.

The FTOIL page is restricted to romance, so therefore the HAHW scene is the only appropriate version to include. But a page that is confined to such restrictions has no relevance or bearing towards the canon story of Final Fantasy VII, nor should it.

2. Which evidence supersedes what? The Cloud x Aerith date has been stated to be default/canon in other places, yet on the FTOIL page the caption says the date is variable and makes no specific reference to Cloud x Aerith. So if the FTOIL page supposedly makes the HAHW scene canon, does it also mean there is no canon outcome to Cloud’s date (even though in other places SE says the Clerith date is canon)?

I guess my main question is: what evidence supersedes what? Is the FTOIL page the final word regarding the Highwind scene but not Cloud's date?

If you argue that evidence other than the FTOIL page can make the Clerith date canon, can’t you also argue that evidence other than the FTOIL page can make the Highwind scene optional? SE does, after-all, point out the optionality of the Highwind scene on three separate occasions.

It seems that SE says one thing one place and then something completely different in another place. They aren't consistent with either the Highwind scene or Cloud's date. So whose to determine what supersedes what?

Maybe EVERYTHING that is variable remains variable? And maybe, just maybe, that’s because SE believes the love triangle is up to interpretation and doesn't want to make either pairing canon?

3. Yes, the HAHW scene has been used in other places besides the FTOIL page. But, just as Cloti’s say the Clerith date was used as a placeholder on the FTOIL page, I’d argue that the other times the HAHW scene has been used it was simply being used as a placeholder.

4. The only time SE mentions Tifa’s risque line about 'words not being the only way to show someone how you feel' is on the FTOIL page. Therefore, that is the only time you can say SE is specifically talking about the HAHW scene, which makes sense given the confining nature and specific CONTEXT of the FTOIL page. All the other times SE talks about the Highwind scene, SE simply says Tifa and Cloud’s feelings matched underneath the Highwind. But the only time we can be sure SE is referring to the HAHW scene is on the FTOIL page because that is the only time they reference Tifa’s risque line.

5. Tifa and Cloud share an intimate nonverbal moment in both versions of the Highwind scene. In fact, the picture used on the FTOIL page is a moment that is in both the low affection and high affection version — Tifa resting her head on Cloud.

In both versions, after this intimate moment takes place, Tifa and Cloud go back aboard the Highwind and a conversation unfolds where they agree that they aren’t afraid to face Sephiroth because they have each other. Since this conversation aboard the Highwind happens in both versions, these feelings can either be platonic or romantic.

Mutual feelings and intimate moments are in both versions, therefore it is never clear which version SE is referring to when they say Cloud and Tifa’s feelings matched below the Highwind.

5. There is just as much Clerith evidence as Cloti evidence. Even if the the HAHW scene is canon, that doesn’t take away all of the Clerith evidence, nor does it take away Cloud’s separate and possibly stronger love for Aerith. Maybe the canon answer is that he loved both women romantically?

In addition, the relationship shown between Cloud and Tifa in AC is VERY ambiguous, and there are tons of quotes/evidence that pokes holes in the idea that they are in a romantic relationship. In fact, there is no explicit romantic scene shown between them (contrary to virtually all other canon Final Fantasy couples).
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JayM
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February 6th, 2013, 2:59 am #9

You can get the Aeris date AND get the HAHW - I've done it several times without even meaning to. I think I've even gotten the Barret date and HAHW before, and you have to be mean to the girls to get Barret. :lmao: But I could be remembering wrong about that one. I personally think the Aeris date and HAHW are meant to be canon, but I thought that before I ever encountered the LTD.
Anti-R wrote:I find it ridiculous cloti shippers insist Aerith's date in the FTOIL isn't as valid, because of Yuffie and Barret, and act as if they never affected the HW night because it's not "written in the caption".
Like I said, though, there are plenty of CloTi shippers who have no problem with the Aeris date being canon. Tres has even come around on that. :)

I maintain I don't understand the fuss about the FTOIL page.

But then, I really don't get the LTD, either. I like arguing about canon and Japanese and narratives and all of those things, but why does it matter what you ship? Aeris and Tifa are both lovely ladies. There is room in the fandom, and in Cloud's affections, for both (IMO).
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Anti-R
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February 6th, 2013, 1:34 pm #10

Assuming Cloud even has any romantic attachment to either of those two. AC really showed that well. He never acted as Tifa's boyfriend at all, in fact he already left her in the dark to die alone. While his feelings towards Aerith could be interpreted the same loss he felt towards Zack.
JayM wrote: But then, I really don't get the LTD, either. I like arguing about canon and Japanese and narratives and all of those things, but why does it matter what you ship? Aeris and Tifa are both lovely ladies. There is room in the fandom, and in Cloud's affections, for both (IMO).
This is more on the clash of head canons between the players who controls Cloud in the original game.

And no, I don't really buy "he's attracted to Aerith but the real love of his life is Tifa" opinion is all.
wrote: I think I've even gotten the Barret date and HAHW before
Don't think that's possible. Tifa should have gotten that date if her affection was that high enough.

Utada Hikaru wrote:Everybody finds love in the end.
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