Ok who has suffered Cleveland cylinder wall failure???

Joined: February 13th, 2006, 4:59 am

August 14th, 2013, 10:18 pm #1

While we have talked about nearly every aspect of this engine have we all encountered the cylinder walls splitting?TorinoPat has got my curiosity up now on cylinder failures.I will start with my own experience, I have not cracked any 351c blocks that had not been caused by something else. The first one was over rev kiss the valve and good by cylinder! That was block no.1! The next was base plate in carb screw let loose fell in to no.3 and jammed piston hard and boom cracked top to bottom. The next was 400 block bored .030 over was not sonic tested and was 408 cubes. Ran fine for two years then started dumping water in pan. No.8 was split on outside part of block. That engine dynoed at 551. The last 436 stroker ended up dumping coolant from a split deck which was caused from improper installation of liners. Jury is still out whether these liners were actually needed. It will be interesting to hear if you guys have had trouble in this area! If indeed you suffered a failure from poor cylinders or other failures caused the cylinder to give out. It is known that a hearty block such as bbf, Dart Windsor,fe blocks can suffer a failure at keep the cylinder intact. This in most cases doesn't happen usually with this motor. However I think we had a post on this earlier this week. Lets hear the stories boys! Did your sleeve let loose from something failing or from weakness! I have talked with Paul Jenkins and while he never said he busted cylinders I would imagine he has. But he did tell me his blocks were stock blocks filled and prepared by himself. He may have had xe blocks at one time but never mentioned it. Also if something else fails and takes cylinder can that really be classed as a weakness? In the snowmobile world it happens regularly ? Let me know!
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Joined: December 16th, 2003, 11:56 pm

August 14th, 2013, 11:31 pm #2

corrosion pitting/scaling on the cylinder surfaces in the water jacket can be significant. I'm quite surprised they hold up as well as they do to the abuse they get.
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Joined: June 17th, 2010, 12:57 am

August 15th, 2013, 1:44 am #3

While we have talked about nearly every aspect of this engine have we all encountered the cylinder walls splitting?TorinoPat has got my curiosity up now on cylinder failures.I will start with my own experience, I have not cracked any 351c blocks that had not been caused by something else. The first one was over rev kiss the valve and good by cylinder! That was block no.1! The next was base plate in carb screw let loose fell in to no.3 and jammed piston hard and boom cracked top to bottom. The next was 400 block bored .030 over was not sonic tested and was 408 cubes. Ran fine for two years then started dumping water in pan. No.8 was split on outside part of block. That engine dynoed at 551. The last 436 stroker ended up dumping coolant from a split deck which was caused from improper installation of liners. Jury is still out whether these liners were actually needed. It will be interesting to hear if you guys have had trouble in this area! If indeed you suffered a failure from poor cylinders or other failures caused the cylinder to give out. It is known that a hearty block such as bbf, Dart Windsor,fe blocks can suffer a failure at keep the cylinder intact. This in most cases doesn't happen usually with this motor. However I think we had a post on this earlier this week. Lets hear the stories boys! Did your sleeve let loose from something failing or from weakness! I have talked with Paul Jenkins and while he never said he busted cylinders I would imagine he has. But he did tell me his blocks were stock blocks filled and prepared by himself. He may have had xe blocks at one time but never mentioned it. Also if something else fails and takes cylinder can that really be classed as a weakness? In the snowmobile world it happens regularly ? Let me know!
only from a dropped valves have i ever cracked a cylinder wall.
a friend of mine also dropped a vavle took out his block
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Joined: February 13th, 2006, 4:59 am

August 15th, 2013, 3:24 am #4

This is the sort of thing im starting to think. I was under the impression also that the cylinders were the weak link. However now that I've talked with a few x racers it seems not so. They were running tons of power through these but only when something let go you had a windowed cylinder. It's maybe this reason the c-motor was dubbed a poor block. When a 460 dropped a valve you had a chance of re-using block. I'm certain the other light weight fords have the same issue. Their was a fella on here from AU. That was running a blown 2200hp Cleveland. He said the weak link on his motors was the main saddles not the cylinders? That's pretty healthy numbers from stock style block.
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Joined: February 19th, 2005, 5:39 pm

August 15th, 2013, 3:24 am #5

only from a dropped valves have i ever cracked a cylinder wall.
a friend of mine also dropped a vavle took out his block
Years back, sonic tested block(I believe this is inaccurate many times). Ran hot at the end of o run, checked the radiator, was low, oil was a little high and milky... oh crap, cracked block. #2 about 2" long, located at 2 O'clock looking from the front.

Vid clip latter onhttp://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3EWhFlYLgHo

Mike

"Meet my little friend... 351c"
Last edited by machstang70 on August 15th, 2013, 3:25 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Joined: April 12th, 2004, 6:14 pm

August 15th, 2013, 3:56 am #6

This is the sort of thing im starting to think. I was under the impression also that the cylinders were the weak link. However now that I've talked with a few x racers it seems not so. They were running tons of power through these but only when something let go you had a windowed cylinder. It's maybe this reason the c-motor was dubbed a poor block. When a 460 dropped a valve you had a chance of re-using block. I'm certain the other light weight fords have the same issue. Their was a fella on here from AU. That was running a blown 2200hp Cleveland. He said the weak link on his motors was the main saddles not the cylinders? That's pretty healthy numbers from stock style block.
Ok, I was going to try to avoid this but here goes. I have lost clevelands both ways in the same motor. The valve dropped in my first cleveland that was a street motor but due to me being 17 years old saw frequent 6500 rpm blasts. When I tore it down to inspect the carnage I found that another cylinder had split, I assume it had been pretty recent because I hadn't noticed any excessive water usage. It's possible that when the motor locked up on the broken valve that it caused another cylinder to split? I suppose thats possible. I don't think you could count on any block surviving a valve being wedged into it at 3000 rpm.

Now for the part that I can't bring myself to ignore. This afternoon it was 800HP pro stock motors using production blocks, now its a supercharged 2200 hp monster! It must have been one of those blocks that was "prepped" by throwing it in the furnace and recasting it as a Man-o-war block. Maybe he cracked his main saddles on his first desktop dyno run , and never had a chance to split a cylinder wall.

What was it that Charlie Brown used to say, GOOD GRIEF!
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Joined: February 13th, 2006, 4:59 am

August 15th, 2013, 5:20 am #7

I'm not feeding you s***! This is what the whole thread is about. I'm sure Blizz can find the thread about the whizzy Aussie block. Just because you don't beleive doesn't mean didly. Bob Glidden may have been the best known racer but wasn't the only one. These guys had their own ideas and used them, who's to say they never worked? I just looked it up and I apologize on the Aussie block it was 1250 hp and it was a xe block. The login was Lyle671! I won't apologize for the p/s racer as that's the way it is! Bolt your Windsor together and be happy!
Last edited by steve.k on August 15th, 2013, 5:22 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Joined: June 16th, 2004, 4:57 am

August 15th, 2013, 11:05 am #8

While we have talked about nearly every aspect of this engine have we all encountered the cylinder walls splitting?TorinoPat has got my curiosity up now on cylinder failures.I will start with my own experience, I have not cracked any 351c blocks that had not been caused by something else. The first one was over rev kiss the valve and good by cylinder! That was block no.1! The next was base plate in carb screw let loose fell in to no.3 and jammed piston hard and boom cracked top to bottom. The next was 400 block bored .030 over was not sonic tested and was 408 cubes. Ran fine for two years then started dumping water in pan. No.8 was split on outside part of block. That engine dynoed at 551. The last 436 stroker ended up dumping coolant from a split deck which was caused from improper installation of liners. Jury is still out whether these liners were actually needed. It will be interesting to hear if you guys have had trouble in this area! If indeed you suffered a failure from poor cylinders or other failures caused the cylinder to give out. It is known that a hearty block such as bbf, Dart Windsor,fe blocks can suffer a failure at keep the cylinder intact. This in most cases doesn't happen usually with this motor. However I think we had a post on this earlier this week. Lets hear the stories boys! Did your sleeve let loose from something failing or from weakness! I have talked with Paul Jenkins and while he never said he busted cylinders I would imagine he has. But he did tell me his blocks were stock blocks filled and prepared by himself. He may have had xe blocks at one time but never mentioned it. Also if something else fails and takes cylinder can that really be classed as a weakness? In the snowmobile world it happens regularly ? Let me know!
As I mentioned in the other thread I have had a few split Cleveland cylinder walls over the years. What I forgot to mention was the very first split cylinder I had was a cast piston combo in my very first Cleveland build (that is IIRC lol). And if I do actually remember correctly the split cylinder on that engine did have a busted piston skirt too (did I mention I really hate cast pistons lol). So I guess that is another possible cause for a split cylinder wall (Cleveland an others) from either piston rock after the skirt broke off, or the piston/skirt somehow getting wedged for a split second as it broke off.






my youtube page.
http://www.youtube.com/user/DILLIGASDAVE/videos?view=0

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Joined: February 13th, 2006, 4:59 am

August 15th, 2013, 12:50 pm #9

So you are saying you have broke them from non grouted but not after being grouted! You also mention that the p/s racers did in fact use prepped stock blocks like the ones I mention Paul Jenkins used. It is interesting to note that the block was not the big issue. It was poor grade valve springs that lasted usually only about 4 rounds. It would seem to me if you have to grout both the Windsor and the Cleveland why not just use the Cleveland why not have the added Benifit of the high speed bearing journals and main journals ! Paul and I discussed block prep and like you say once done correctly you have a solid base. I was surprised when he mentioned this as I assumed most everyone furnaced brazed blocks. Paul mentions not everyone had lots of money so things were tight and they used what they could afford. Thanks Steve.
Last edited by steve.k on August 15th, 2013, 1:02 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Joined: January 1st, 1970, 12:00 am

August 15th, 2013, 1:30 pm #10

after the first bore split, we sleeved it. when the second one split, we sleeved that one, because we has so much invested in the first sleeve, so it continued all season long, the engine ran like hell 'till the temp gauge jumped! we would bring it in and see bubbles in the rad.

The engine was a Highport plated closed chamber head, with the old TRW pop-ups in a circle track car, we turned it over 7000 just before going into 1 and 3 it was fun while it lasted, it would make about night and a half, we just never knew how long she had.

The engine is still in one piece, after being sold a couple of times. I'd like to buy her back some day, make a flower pot out of the block and run the rest in a drag car.

-blizz

351C.net, Just say no to multi groove keepers..
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