Engines Temps?

Engines Temps?

Joined: February 13th, 2006, 4:59 am

July 5th, 2012, 1:39 am #1

As not to hijack Matts thread I started this one! Engines last a lot longer running closer to 200-220 than if they are running 160 or 180. There's nothing in the engine that will be destroyed at any temperature where your coolant stays liquid. Only if the coolant boils over or leaks out of the system will components get hot enough to be damaged. The only reason the manufactures run these hot of temps are 1.Emissions
2.the best possible fuel economy 3.To allow short jonts to grocery store so oils can reach adequate temps in everyday conditions.
We own heavy equipment and I can tell you from experience that heat (anything over 200) is a problem waiting to happen. It is nice to keep these machines running as cool as possible as if you get a partially plugged rad things can get hot in a hurry.Like I said earlier we have engines in the 11000 hr range thats getting up there.My pickup that has 169000 miles on it has only 5200hrs so that gives you a idea what type of hrs.These engine consistently run in the 170-180 degree range and no higher.While there are engines out there with more hrs I do not beleive raising the temp can contribute to more life.With the rise in temp more and more friction will occurr.As hotrodders we try to keep inlet charge as cool as possible even go to lengths to install cool cans and heat sheilds to keep temps down?Wouldnt it just work alot easier by keeping the engine heat down?
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Joined: December 16th, 2003, 1:59 am

July 5th, 2012, 3:01 am #2

http://www.carnut.com/ramblin/_cool3.html

there'll be phantoms, there'll be fires on the road... and the white man dancing
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Joined: February 13th, 2006, 4:59 am

July 5th, 2012, 4:08 am #3

Thanks Tinman that was informative for sure! I posted in my thread that the engines seemed to have a extended life in that 170-180 range which your article pointed out! I mention the 160 stat for the c-motor which I use but I also state that my engine hits 200 in a pull then cools to 180! I beleive with the added combustion temps from engine mods you need a lower stat than stock to bring you in line. This is the very reason I was preaching! Just because a engine has a certain stat does not mean it will run at that specific temp, especially guys in the southern hot climates! Steve
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Joined: October 1st, 2004, 8:05 pm

July 5th, 2012, 5:39 am #4

Thermostats are not precisely made devices, there's a margin of error in their operation.

A thermostat rated 180°F will start opening between 173°F to 180°F

It will be fully open between 198°F and 205°F

Steve, the cooling system needs of your mud racer are completely different than the needs of a street car, I wouldn't apply what works in the mud to street vehicles. A street car operates most of the time near the bottom of a thermostats range (i.e. only opened a small amount). Your mud racer puts a lot of load on its motor and cooling system, the thermostat is going to operate much nearer its upper range (fully open).

Make sense?

Happy 4th my friend.

-G
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Joined: December 16th, 2003, 1:59 am

July 5th, 2012, 7:11 am #5

Thanks Tinman that was informative for sure! I posted in my thread that the engines seemed to have a extended life in that 170-180 range which your article pointed out! I mention the 160 stat for the c-motor which I use but I also state that my engine hits 200 in a pull then cools to 180! I beleive with the added combustion temps from engine mods you need a lower stat than stock to bring you in line. This is the very reason I was preaching! Just because a engine has a certain stat does not mean it will run at that specific temp, especially guys in the southern hot climates! Steve
too hot you cook the oil and your clearances tighten up, score, gall, seize

too cold your clearances are big and your parts wear faster

but yes absolutely, the T-stat rating has nothing to do with how high the temp might climb if the system can't keep it under control

if you're running WOT you might want to whittle down your impeller to prevent cavitation, you might be whipping the coolant in the pump instead of pushing it through the block?

there'll be phantoms, there'll be fires on the road... and the white man dancing
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Joined: February 13th, 2006, 4:59 am

July 5th, 2012, 12:46 pm #6

Thanks guys for info but I guess what I was trying to say is that even in my street cars I run the 160. I find that because most the stock cooling systems are a little tight for engines that have more comp. ported heads and bigger cams. I find that most of my temps stay in that 170-185 range even with the 160 cause of the extra heat generated. I never had luck with bigger stats but I see what you are saying. In our big cat engines caterpillar liked to have their diesels running in the 200+ range, we found it was very hard to get engine life at these temps. Our subsequent dozers have different engines that run way cooler and last way longer. I took this experience and applied it to both my drag car, and street car. This was the particular reason I preached about the 160? As for Matt I think he will have to adjust his stat selection so he can find that sweet spot between 170- 185! George I am building a mud racer but it's not together yet, it. Is still at balance shop as we speak.i was referring to my cars but I do hear what you are saying.
Last edited by steve.k on July 5th, 2012, 12:48 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Joined: January 10th, 2002, 5:53 pm

July 5th, 2012, 1:59 pm #7

As not to hijack Matts thread I started this one! Engines last a lot longer running closer to 200-220 than if they are running 160 or 180. There's nothing in the engine that will be destroyed at any temperature where your coolant stays liquid. Only if the coolant boils over or leaks out of the system will components get hot enough to be damaged. The only reason the manufactures run these hot of temps are 1.Emissions
2.the best possible fuel economy 3.To allow short jonts to grocery store so oils can reach adequate temps in everyday conditions.
We own heavy equipment and I can tell you from experience that heat (anything over 200) is a problem waiting to happen. It is nice to keep these machines running as cool as possible as if you get a partially plugged rad things can get hot in a hurry.Like I said earlier we have engines in the 11000 hr range thats getting up there.My pickup that has 169000 miles on it has only 5200hrs so that gives you a idea what type of hrs.These engine consistently run in the 170-180 degree range and no higher.While there are engines out there with more hrs I do not beleive raising the temp can contribute to more life.With the rise in temp more and more friction will occurr.As hotrodders we try to keep inlet charge as cool as possible even go to lengths to install cool cans and heat sheilds to keep temps down?Wouldnt it just work alot easier by keeping the engine heat down?
If you put a 160 in a car/whatever and your gage runs 170-180, then the system is not working right. If it was pulling heat out of the engine like the system was designed, then it would hold temp. If it's not, then you are operating outside the systems design parameters.

In direct relation to Matt's thread, I have spent a LOT of time working on temperature control with performance motors and aluminum radiators. What works is high temps and lots of air flow. Aluminum radiators like a hot working fluid and it makes the heat exchange process work better. And you also best be moving air big time across the core. I've also had conversations with cooling engineers and a guy from Griffin summed it up nicely - "hot water equals a cool motor". If the water coming out of the motor is hot, then it is doing it's job of carrying heat out of the engine. On our race cars, I run aluminum radiators and 195 t-stats. The cars maintain 195~200 in weather that will melt your tennis shoes. 160s and 180 t-stats will not hold temp and will let engine temps creep in your burnout and staging which is instant death to your dial in. Consistency is what is needed to win bracket races and we do that. Also, on tear downs for the race engines I find that the insides are very clean and there is little to no bore or bearing wear. Usually the only parts that need to be cycled out every 2-3 years is valve seals. I tore down the 2V race engine after 5 years of service and you could still see plenty of crosshatch on the cylinder walls. We did a very light hone, put in new rings and ran it another 1000 passes. And I can jump in the race car and drive it home 20 miles if I care to do so without cooling worries.

This is typical of summer temps at the drag strip here in Texas

In car with all the windows down


Ground temp in the staging lanes (track temp reaches 160+)


We shall agree to disagree on this subject - I'm just telling you what works for me in this environment.



1967 Falcon 4 door 351C-4V
1970 Mustang 351C-2V
http://raceabilene.com/kelly/hotrod
Owner built, owner abused.
Last edited by Falcon67 on July 5th, 2012, 2:01 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Joined: February 13th, 2006, 4:59 am

July 5th, 2012, 3:46 pm #8

The thing with the factory system is exactly that it was built for factory output engines. When we increase engine power by 100-200 hp the factory system is hooped. Take for example my drag car originally came with 2 core rad , when I had the 351 in making around 400 hp it was adequate for cooling even cruising town with stock pump. Then when I did the 408 it was a different story. I then added a 3 core griffin that would fit in my existing rad location without extensive chopping. I also Added mezeire pump and dual fans from a intrepid car. Even with the added capacity and my 436 I run the 160 to keep in engine in the desired 170-185 range. Is my rad still to small ? Probably but it works rarely getting to that 200 mark where (I) do not like it to be.
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Joined: December 16th, 2003, 11:56 pm

July 5th, 2012, 11:18 pm #9

If you put a 160 in a car/whatever and your gage runs 170-180, then the system is not working right. If it was pulling heat out of the engine like the system was designed, then it would hold temp. If it's not, then you are operating outside the systems design parameters.

In direct relation to Matt's thread, I have spent a LOT of time working on temperature control with performance motors and aluminum radiators. What works is high temps and lots of air flow. Aluminum radiators like a hot working fluid and it makes the heat exchange process work better. And you also best be moving air big time across the core. I've also had conversations with cooling engineers and a guy from Griffin summed it up nicely - "hot water equals a cool motor". If the water coming out of the motor is hot, then it is doing it's job of carrying heat out of the engine. On our race cars, I run aluminum radiators and 195 t-stats. The cars maintain 195~200 in weather that will melt your tennis shoes. 160s and 180 t-stats will not hold temp and will let engine temps creep in your burnout and staging which is instant death to your dial in. Consistency is what is needed to win bracket races and we do that. Also, on tear downs for the race engines I find that the insides are very clean and there is little to no bore or bearing wear. Usually the only parts that need to be cycled out every 2-3 years is valve seals. I tore down the 2V race engine after 5 years of service and you could still see plenty of crosshatch on the cylinder walls. We did a very light hone, put in new rings and ran it another 1000 passes. And I can jump in the race car and drive it home 20 miles if I care to do so without cooling worries.

This is typical of summer temps at the drag strip here in Texas

In car with all the windows down


Ground temp in the staging lanes (track temp reaches 160+)


We shall agree to disagree on this subject - I'm just telling you what works for me in this environment.



1967 Falcon 4 door 351C-4V
1970 Mustang 351C-2V
http://raceabilene.com/kelly/hotrod
Owner built, owner abused.
Probably near that hot under the hood some days before you ever start it up, LOL. Guys already know, cooling systems effectiveness varies widely, HP (engine heat output) varies widely. Driving conditions vary widely. No one size T-stat fits all. A T-stat can't cool the engine. It will act as a warm-up valve to get you up to temp quickly. It will rein in the cooling system if the cooling system happens to have some extra capacity for the conditions. If the cooling system is running out of gas for the conditions the T-stat throws it's hands in the air and opens right up. It's usually time to get more cooling system if you want to keep that T-stat set-point. Guys should choose the T-stat rating based on experience with the engine, the cooling system, and the conditions and what they like to see on the temp gage assuming the cooling system can cooperate and ablige them. 160 is probably too cold up north at 20 below. 200 is probably never too hot. 18o might be nice if the cooling system can provide for it under the conditions.
Last edited by F0rdmech on July 5th, 2012, 11:20 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Joined: February 13th, 2006, 4:59 am

July 6th, 2012, 12:36 am #10

Well you guys have me stumped? If the thermostat does nothing to regulate temp then why don't they just make a 195 and call it good? Then every time we hop up our engines we just go buy a bigger rad??the thermostat is just that what the name implies to control temp to a degree. If your system is a little laggy the stat may get u where you need to be. Will you get spike ? Yes of course will it cool enough ? Most likely. If I take my new ford pickup and hold it to the floor for 1 mile will the temp go above 195? Yes of course I have done it!An early opening stat can help things stay cool at the get go before it gets to hot and to the point where it's tough to get cool. Matt had said his engine never boiled but was over 200 I say if he had a stat that opened early it would not have got that high. With the hot ambient air most of you have in the U.S there is no way I would run a 195 stat as if one thing goes out of whack you have no margin for error! I live in the great white north and our diesels run all winter long at 165-170 and like I said have over 110000 hrs on them so far and are still running? Like George pointed out a 195 stat is not fully open till well in the 200's wouldn't it make sense to have one fully open by 185 in the sweet spot?
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