Dyno results

Dyno results

Joined: September 6th, 2010, 5:18 pm

April 17th, 2012, 3:19 am #1

Hey fellas,

This is my first post but I'm a long time reader. Just got my first 351c off the dyno, this was my first real performance build. I was hoping to get closer to the 500hp mark. I was wondering if you could critique my build and see what I need to do to get that extra 50hp.

Short block: D2AE-CA 2 bolt bored .040 over
4MA crank ground .010
Stock rods with ARP bolts with counterweights smoothed up into a slight V
Block decked a little beyond zero, pistons protruded .010 out of hole
Moroso windage tray
Cam bearing restrictors in 1234 with the big passage to the #1 main blocked
Stock volume oil pump
Custom .052 head gasket to achieve .041 quench

Heads: D1AE
measured 65cc
Ported to flow 329 and 229@ .600
Ferrea 5000 stainless valves
springs, retainers and locks supplied with cam
springs measured #122 and #325
Harland Sharp roller rockers
5/16 .080 wall pushrods
Crower cool face EDM solid lifters

Camshaft: Erson E227242
Lsa 110+4
overlap 71 degrees
intake opens 37 closes 69
exhaust closes 34 opens 82
Valve lift .588 intake and exhaust
.026 lash
duration at .050 Intake: 242 Exhaust: 246
overall Intake: 286 Exhaust: 246
Intake Centerline 106
Cam was installed "straight up" but found to be 2 degrees retarded

Induction:
Holley 950hp
Edelbrock Torker, a really old one with the butterfly shaped plenum

Exhaust:
hooker 1 3/4 headers

Ignition:
Msd 8477 pro billet distributor
Autolight 24's gapped at .030

Compression 10.77:1

All runs were made with 91 octane.

Most of my dyno time was eaten up chasing a strange lean fuel issue that turned out to be some alcohol and/or bad premium gas mixed together. So we didn't get to play with the timing much and all runs were taken at 28 degrees total.

Does this combo reflect the dyno sheet or is something off here?




I cant figure out how to make the picture bigger. It made 452hp at 6000rpm and 429ft lbs at 4600rpm.
Last edited by zrob90sc on April 17th, 2012, 3:50 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Joined: February 13th, 2006, 4:59 am

April 17th, 2012, 4:08 am #2

Zach I dont think you should be dissapointed to much!Thats excellant power on pump fuel plus you are not spinning it hard.I think timing would have picked things up probably around 36 total on Iron heads.I also think you need some 1 7/8 headers!That picked up 25hp alone on my 408.Your cam is a little small for me but I think yours would offer good street manners so maybe something you maynot like to change?I would have liked about .620 lift and 256-266 @.050 duration but its a little more lumpy?I think headers and timing get you within 15hp where you want to be?Also Strip Dommy will pick you up some power even though its a upper rpm manifold.In fact the strip made more peak on mine over the CHI but did cost a bit of tq down low?

ANyhow not to shabby just some tweaking and you'll be close!
Good job Zach! Steve
Last edited by steve.k on April 17th, 2012, 4:11 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Joined: October 1st, 2004, 8:05 pm

April 17th, 2012, 6:51 am #3

(1) Headers are small, need to be 1-7/8" ID (ID = 10% larger than the exhaust valve)

(2) Too little ignition timing; quench chamber 4V's combined with flat tops normally want 36 degrees or more

(3) Cam is a little small, a flat tappet solid with 250° @ 0.050" intake duration & 0.600" valve lift, combined with 11.0:1 compression, should get you into the 500 BHP league.

BHP is always heavily dependent on carb calibration, ignition calibration and ring seal. In your favor, the head porting sounds pretty good and the compression is in the ball park. The devil is in the details. The Holley Strip Dominator would net you a few additional BHP over Vic's Torker manifold too.

I understand chasing a BHP number, like 500 BHP. I've done it too. You probably won't be satisfied until you achieve it, and that's OK. I wasn't either. But in the end, you don't drive a dyno. Someday you'll discover what you are really after are certain engine characterisitics ... the numbers be damned.

You are close to your goal, keep at it, and good luck.

-G
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Joined: May 20th, 2005, 4:48 pm

April 17th, 2012, 10:56 am #4

Hey fellas,

This is my first post but I'm a long time reader. Just got my first 351c off the dyno, this was my first real performance build. I was hoping to get closer to the 500hp mark. I was wondering if you could critique my build and see what I need to do to get that extra 50hp.

Short block: D2AE-CA 2 bolt bored .040 over
4MA crank ground .010
Stock rods with ARP bolts with counterweights smoothed up into a slight V
Block decked a little beyond zero, pistons protruded .010 out of hole
Moroso windage tray
Cam bearing restrictors in 1234 with the big passage to the #1 main blocked
Stock volume oil pump
Custom .052 head gasket to achieve .041 quench

Heads: D1AE
measured 65cc
Ported to flow 329 and 229@ .600
Ferrea 5000 stainless valves
springs, retainers and locks supplied with cam
springs measured #122 and #325
Harland Sharp roller rockers
5/16 .080 wall pushrods
Crower cool face EDM solid lifters

Camshaft: Erson E227242
Lsa 110+4
overlap 71 degrees
intake opens 37 closes 69
exhaust closes 34 opens 82
Valve lift .588 intake and exhaust
.026 lash
duration at .050 Intake: 242 Exhaust: 246
overall Intake: 286 Exhaust: 246
Intake Centerline 106
Cam was installed "straight up" but found to be 2 degrees retarded

Induction:
Holley 950hp
Edelbrock Torker, a really old one with the butterfly shaped plenum

Exhaust:
hooker 1 3/4 headers

Ignition:
Msd 8477 pro billet distributor
Autolight 24's gapped at .030

Compression 10.77:1

All runs were made with 91 octane.

Most of my dyno time was eaten up chasing a strange lean fuel issue that turned out to be some alcohol and/or bad premium gas mixed together. So we didn't get to play with the timing much and all runs were taken at 28 degrees total.

Does this combo reflect the dyno sheet or is something off here?




I cant figure out how to make the picture bigger. It made 452hp at 6000rpm and 429ft lbs at 4600rpm.
Desktop Dyno, Engine Analyzer, and some guys that use their dynos to sell engines, will tell you that you have a 500hp engine, but I think you have a very realistic build and result.

George is absolutely right, if you aim for driveability and not a certain horsepower number, you will be a lot happier. Sure, you can hit the 500hp mark with a big cam and more compression, but is it worth the hassle just to say you have a certain number? Remember, a 450hp engine in the right car will easily run in the 11's.

My last "street build" came right in at 420hp....357ci, 4V heads, a hydraulic roller with 230/236 duration @ .050", and a Blue Thunder dual plane intake.

Some things that I would check/change:

I too would open up the header sizes and I would also analyze the horsepower curves looking for valve float indication. The spring pressures you were using seem a little light to me to be able to take advantage of a cam that should pull higher than 6000. My engine above peaked at 6200, with 12 degrees less duration than you. That sorta raises a flag to me. A 351 with really nice flowing heads like you have, coupled with 242° of cam duration (especially installed on a 108° ICL) should pull much higher than 6000.

You need more valve lift. Having heads that flow the best at .600" doesn't mean much if you're only opening the valves about .560" after lash.

Less carb may be better for the street. Again, as an example, I dyno'd my last 351 street engine with a Holley 850 DP. I bolted on a Quick Fuel 650 and it made the exact same horsepower....but I guarantee that the 650 will probably have a lot better throttle response on the street. 350 cubes shouldn't need a 950HP....especially only turning 6000 rpm.

Brent Lykins
B2 Motorsports, LLC






Last edited by blykins on April 17th, 2012, 11:02 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Joined: September 6th, 2010, 5:18 pm

April 17th, 2012, 12:50 pm #5

(1) Headers are small, need to be 1-7/8" ID (ID = 10% larger than the exhaust valve)

(2) Too little ignition timing; quench chamber 4V's combined with flat tops normally want 36 degrees or more

(3) Cam is a little small, a flat tappet solid with 250° @ 0.050" intake duration & 0.600" valve lift, combined with 11.0:1 compression, should get you into the 500 BHP league.

BHP is always heavily dependent on carb calibration, ignition calibration and ring seal. In your favor, the head porting sounds pretty good and the compression is in the ball park. The devil is in the details. The Holley Strip Dominator would net you a few additional BHP over Vic's Torker manifold too.

I understand chasing a BHP number, like 500 BHP. I've done it too. You probably won't be satisfied until you achieve it, and that's OK. I wasn't either. But in the end, you don't drive a dyno. Someday you'll discover what you are really after are certain engine characterisitics ... the numbers be damned.

You are close to your goal, keep at it, and good luck.

-G
This whole HP thing is very addictive, I really want 500hp but I don't think I want to give up this torque curve. So I'll optimize what I have and leave the dome pistons and bigger cam for next time.

George would you know if there is any difference in this strange butterfly plenum torker than the newer ones?
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Joined: September 6th, 2010, 5:18 pm

April 17th, 2012, 1:00 pm #6

Desktop Dyno, Engine Analyzer, and some guys that use their dynos to sell engines, will tell you that you have a 500hp engine, but I think you have a very realistic build and result.

George is absolutely right, if you aim for driveability and not a certain horsepower number, you will be a lot happier. Sure, you can hit the 500hp mark with a big cam and more compression, but is it worth the hassle just to say you have a certain number? Remember, a 450hp engine in the right car will easily run in the 11's.

My last "street build" came right in at 420hp....357ci, 4V heads, a hydraulic roller with 230/236 duration @ .050", and a Blue Thunder dual plane intake.

Some things that I would check/change:

I too would open up the header sizes and I would also analyze the horsepower curves looking for valve float indication. The spring pressures you were using seem a little light to me to be able to take advantage of a cam that should pull higher than 6000. My engine above peaked at 6200, with 12 degrees less duration than you. That sorta raises a flag to me. A 351 with really nice flowing heads like you have, coupled with 242° of cam duration (especially installed on a 108° ICL) should pull much higher than 6000.

You need more valve lift. Having heads that flow the best at .600" doesn't mean much if you're only opening the valves about .560" after lash.

Less carb may be better for the street. Again, as an example, I dyno'd my last 351 street engine with a Holley 850 DP. I bolted on a Quick Fuel 650 and it made the exact same horsepower....but I guarantee that the 650 will probably have a lot better throttle response on the street. 350 cubes shouldn't need a 950HP....especially only turning 6000 rpm.

Brent Lykins
B2 Motorsports, LLC





Brent, I just took a second look at the sheet and the HP hangs in there with 439 @ 6500rpm but drops like a rock after that. It lost over 100hp from 6500rpm to 6800rpm. Would #350 be better? The car is driven on the street but with EDM lifters and not stoplight to stoplight as I live in the middle of nowhere ha.
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Joined: May 20th, 2005, 4:48 pm

April 17th, 2012, 1:13 pm #7

Dropping a few ponies from 6000-6500 would be somewhat normal, but I don't know about dropping 100hp from 6000-6800.

With the larger valves of a Cleveland, I honestly think I would throw some springs on it. Small block Chebbies and small block Fords with 1.94/2.02's can get away with less pressure, but keeping control of a 2.190 is a different story. You may have started to lose control of the valvetrain around the 6000 mark....valve float/bounce isn't always audible. A quick check of the valve stems will let you know if you were getting some bad motion up there. I've seen valve stems get an "X" pattern on the stem instead of the normal -- pattern, due to loss of control.

If it were mine, since the cam is broken in, I'd go with about a 140-145 lb seat pressure and a 350 lb open pressure.

I'd like to see the curve or see a curve that's extrapolated from the data if possible.

Brent Lykins
B2 Motorsports, LLC






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Joined: February 13th, 2006, 4:59 am

April 17th, 2012, 1:35 pm #8

Zach one of my first builds was quite similar to yours and made around 425 hp. That engine was one of my best all around street engines ever! I drove that car 100's of miles at a time and it loved the light to light situations! I think you may have right now exactly what you were looking for. Have fun and post some pics of car when everything is rolling! Steve
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Joined: September 6th, 2010, 5:18 pm

April 17th, 2012, 5:04 pm #9

Dropping a few ponies from 6000-6500 would be somewhat normal, but I don't know about dropping 100hp from 6000-6800.

With the larger valves of a Cleveland, I honestly think I would throw some springs on it. Small block Chebbies and small block Fords with 1.94/2.02's can get away with less pressure, but keeping control of a 2.190 is a different story. You may have started to lose control of the valvetrain around the 6000 mark....valve float/bounce isn't always audible. A quick check of the valve stems will let you know if you were getting some bad motion up there. I've seen valve stems get an "X" pattern on the stem instead of the normal -- pattern, due to loss of control.

If it were mine, since the cam is broken in, I'd go with about a 140-145 lb seat pressure and a 350 lb open pressure.

I'd like to see the curve or see a curve that's extrapolated from the data if possible.

Brent Lykins
B2 Motorsports, LLC





Here's what it made.
RPM TQ HP

3300 360 226
3400 349 225
3500 333 222
3600 324 222
3700 315 222
3800 318 229
3900 322 239
4000 369 291
4100 374 292
4200 389 311
4300 402 330
4400 418 362
4500 423 376
4600 429 377
4700 421 368
4800 425 379
4900 406 384
5000 403 394
5100 406 396
5200 401 397
5300 404 408
5400 403 414
5500 405 424
5600 400 426
5700 402 436
5800 395 436
5900 401 451
6000 395 452
6100 363 421
6200 362 427
6300 361 432
6400 359 438
6500 355 439
6600 337 424
6700 302 385
6800 268 347

I forgot to mention that my headers got right next to the dyno and we had to make some 45degree extensions to connect them to the exhaust outlet. The dyno operator said that was responsible for the dip early on in the curve?
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Joined: September 6th, 2010, 5:18 pm

April 17th, 2012, 5:05 pm #10

Zach one of my first builds was quite similar to yours and made around 425 hp. That engine was one of my best all around street engines ever! I drove that car 100's of miles at a time and it loved the light to light situations! I think you may have right now exactly what you were looking for. Have fun and post some pics of car when everything is rolling! Steve
Thanks Steve, the engine and tranny are installed. I'm just waiting on fuel line connections to finish it up. I'll get some pics and stats up next week!
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