Best Rebuild for my Pantera

Best Rebuild for my Pantera

Joined: June 14th, 2011, 10:13 pm

June 28th, 2011, 12:51 am #1

Just joined and to be honest, a little overwhelmed with all of the information. Searched on PAntera and didn't find much in the way of a rebuild. I guess it really does not make a rats ass difference what car it's in.... a 351 is a 351. That being said...... I have the original 72 4 bolt main in my car. It has 55K miles on it and tomorrow I will do a compression test on all the cylinders. I have a new Holly Carb that was setup specifically for the pantera so I was told, it has the red metering blocks. The engine is still pretty damn strong but it reminds me so much of my 396 L78 big block I had in my Camero. TONS of low end torque and it does pull hard until about 5800. I'm not feeling comfortable with anything over that. I think I have the 4V open Chamber heads but I'm not 100% certain on that. Mallory distributor, headers, large capacity oil pan, HO oil pump... it runs at 70LBS. The intake is an Edelbrock that says something like S351 on it. The car like to run between 200 to 230 degree's as I recently replaced the entire cooling system lock stock and barrel. New fluidine radiator and fans. High volume water pump as well. She is burning some oil. 15-50 synthetic.

So..... enough said. bottom line, I'm looking for @ 500HP that idles great, runs cool, and has a power curve that runs the gauntlet from low to high. Longevity and reliability. Have been shown what a solid flat tappet cam and some aluminum heads can do on another members cougar XR. Mind blowing stuff as I have never seen or felt such a beautiful power band with staggering quick responses from the pedal. We were making HARD power down low and all the way to 7000 RPM. I would like to know what others have done.... what combo's have you had luck with. Right now I'm thinking new Aluminum heads, a cam, rings and bearings and of course seals. Please educate this novice..... I take criticism well.

Dave Downer
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Joined: May 20th, 2005, 4:48 pm

June 28th, 2011, 10:28 am #2

....I'd put a stroker kit in it, add aluminum heads, and add a nice roller cam. A 408 would give you lots of torque and bottom end, but with the right heads and right camshaft would allow you to play up higher in the rpm range as well. 500 hp is child's play with a stroker kit and good heads (prepped cast iron 4V or aluminum).

Brent Lykins
B2 Motorsports, LLC






Last edited by blykins on June 28th, 2011, 10:59 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Joined: January 1st, 1970, 12:00 am

June 28th, 2011, 1:18 pm #3

I'm sure you are aware of these guys, but I'm going to refer you to Panteras International, Our own George Pence runs the magazine for those cats.

http://www.panteracars.com/

I would ask around on that forum for a direction on your build for that particular car and how you intend to drive it.

The Pantera is a sports car, and I would treat it as that, rather than a bad ass heavier muscle car that likes low end tq and big cubes to get things exciting.

To me a sports car like the Pantera is intended to be driven, finessed, rev'd and shifted.

I would think a nice, crisp, properly built 351 (with your iron 4V heads and the right cam) would make a very nice sports car. What I wouldn't want is tire over powering, that is a result of a big stroker kit which causes me to not want to jump on the peddle as you exit a corner for fear of breaking the tires loose and sliding the rear.

I know the Pantera is a bit heavier than my Cobra Replica, but after fianally getting the proper cam and torque converter matched with the rest of my build, I cannot imagine why I would need more torque in the 357 cubes I already have, the car simply jumps when peddle is applied, revs up and revs down almost a quick making a real fun car to drive (when the poor thing actually gets driven) its a sports car and a blast, I hope the best for you and your build too.

Just my 2 cents.

Perhaps George would chime in with his decades of Pantera experiences and that of his readers.
-blizz

Never Pet a burning dog, and don't fry bacon naked... Gary Busey on Celeb Apprentice.
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Joined: October 1st, 2004, 8:05 pm

June 28th, 2011, 3:01 pm #4

The 351 is plenty of motor for a little Italian sports car. It makes power more in the way a sports car should, not like a classic 60's muscle car. As a life long 351C enthusiast, I'd say that cubic inches is against the spirit behind the 351C. The 351C is about volumetric efficiency, not cubic inches.

Some Pantera owners choose to stroke the 351C. However, the Pantera reacts violently enough to the 351, it doesn't need the extra displacement. The more you drive your car, attack twisting mountain roads, drive in the rain, etc, the less you want more displacement. If you want to fry tires you just need a cam with 108 to 110 degree lobe separation. If you want controllable power choose a cam with 112 degree lobe separation or more.

The 351C with 4V heads can make 500 BHP rather willingly, you don't necessarily need alloy heads. But if you want alloy heads, give the new Scott Cook heads a good hard look.

Scott Cook Heads

With a good set of rings, the right amount of compression, a good induction system, a good exhaust system it doesn't take much cam to make 500 BHP with a 351C 4V. The less efficient your induction or exhaust system is, the more cam you need.

You may want to think twice about a solid lifter cam in a Pantera, adjusting valve lash in a Pantera is rather like sleeping on a bed of nails.

The exhaust system in a Pantera is often a bottleneck, not much room for free flowing mufflers, and the largest pipes you can snake through the suspension are about 2-1/4" ID. I run the GTS exhaust system in mine, it looks stock, its quiet, but the GTS mufflers rob about 50 BHP.

-G
____________________________________________________________

Pantera Photos | 351C Historic Information | 351C Technical Information

If you use a 351C 4V powered vehicle for a grocery getter ... the eggs aren't going to make it home!
Last edited by gpence on June 28th, 2011, 3:06 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Joined: May 20th, 2005, 4:48 pm

June 28th, 2011, 3:26 pm #5

I'm sure you are aware of these guys, but I'm going to refer you to Panteras International, Our own George Pence runs the magazine for those cats.

http://www.panteracars.com/

I would ask around on that forum for a direction on your build for that particular car and how you intend to drive it.

The Pantera is a sports car, and I would treat it as that, rather than a bad ass heavier muscle car that likes low end tq and big cubes to get things exciting.

To me a sports car like the Pantera is intended to be driven, finessed, rev'd and shifted.

I would think a nice, crisp, properly built 351 (with your iron 4V heads and the right cam) would make a very nice sports car. What I wouldn't want is tire over powering, that is a result of a big stroker kit which causes me to not want to jump on the peddle as you exit a corner for fear of breaking the tires loose and sliding the rear.

I know the Pantera is a bit heavier than my Cobra Replica, but after fianally getting the proper cam and torque converter matched with the rest of my build, I cannot imagine why I would need more torque in the 357 cubes I already have, the car simply jumps when peddle is applied, revs up and revs down almost a quick making a real fun car to drive (when the poor thing actually gets driven) its a sports car and a blast, I hope the best for you and your build too.

Just my 2 cents.

Perhaps George would chime in with his decades of Pantera experiences and that of his readers.
-blizz

Never Pet a burning dog, and don't fry bacon naked... Gary Busey on Celeb Apprentice.
You don't always have to hold them wide open....but it's more fun that way. :D

The larger displacement would help out on the bottom end if he wants to do a lot of city driving, parades, cruises, etc. I always advise customers to go bigger than their initial thoughts (within reason and ability of parts) as I get a lot of questions from guys who have had their engines for several years....wanting more horsepower.

Even a 500hp 351 is going to make a car like this a smoke show if you get in the gas. I'd rather have the less likelihood of "fussiness" down low and the ability to make more horsepower all across the curve. I deal a lot with Cobra replicas that weigh 2200-2400 lbs and are front engine cars....they will handle 500-600hp without fuss.

Brent Lykins
B2 Motorsports, LLC






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Joined: July 26th, 2002, 1:52 am

June 28th, 2011, 4:15 pm #6

Just joined and to be honest, a little overwhelmed with all of the information. Searched on PAntera and didn't find much in the way of a rebuild. I guess it really does not make a rats ass difference what car it's in.... a 351 is a 351. That being said...... I have the original 72 4 bolt main in my car. It has 55K miles on it and tomorrow I will do a compression test on all the cylinders. I have a new Holly Carb that was setup specifically for the pantera so I was told, it has the red metering blocks. The engine is still pretty damn strong but it reminds me so much of my 396 L78 big block I had in my Camero. TONS of low end torque and it does pull hard until about 5800. I'm not feeling comfortable with anything over that. I think I have the 4V open Chamber heads but I'm not 100% certain on that. Mallory distributor, headers, large capacity oil pan, HO oil pump... it runs at 70LBS. The intake is an Edelbrock that says something like S351 on it. The car like to run between 200 to 230 degree's as I recently replaced the entire cooling system lock stock and barrel. New fluidine radiator and fans. High volume water pump as well. She is burning some oil. 15-50 synthetic.

So..... enough said. bottom line, I'm looking for @ 500HP that idles great, runs cool, and has a power curve that runs the gauntlet from low to high. Longevity and reliability. Have been shown what a solid flat tappet cam and some aluminum heads can do on another members cougar XR. Mind blowing stuff as I have never seen or felt such a beautiful power band with staggering quick responses from the pedal. We were making HARD power down low and all the way to 7000 RPM. I would like to know what others have done.... what combo's have you had luck with. Right now I'm thinking new Aluminum heads, a cam, rings and bearings and of course seals. Please educate this novice..... I take criticism well.

Dave Downer
lunati 70000 lifters

ultradyne nf56 lobes on your choice of lsa these are tight lash lobes , .016 , and they just dont slap around as much as ordinary lobes

A blue thunder 4145 intake would be an improvement over what you have , I think a factory dual plane would be . scott cook makes a modded factory dual plane in aluminum

I like these je pistons 4032 alloy 1/16 rings

http://www.jepistons.com/Catalogs/SRP/F ... _flat.aspx

the old 4778 holley works well , has been a favorite of some pantera owners . make sure you get the old one with the skirted boosters ( 4778, -1 ,-2 ). throttle response will be pretty keen.

if you use the yella terra platinum rockers you wont have to adjust lash often , you wouldn't with ordinary crane or lunati or crower rockers either . but the yella terras are pedestal mount and the lash wont occur between the rocker and the poly lock .

"either we're lost or these woods are FULL of studebaker truck fenders !"

unknown dirt biker
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Joined: June 14th, 2011, 10:13 pm

June 28th, 2011, 6:41 pm #7

The 351 is plenty of motor for a little Italian sports car. It makes power more in the way a sports car should, not like a classic 60's muscle car. As a life long 351C enthusiast, I'd say that cubic inches is against the spirit behind the 351C. The 351C is about volumetric efficiency, not cubic inches.

Some Pantera owners choose to stroke the 351C. However, the Pantera reacts violently enough to the 351, it doesn't need the extra displacement. The more you drive your car, attack twisting mountain roads, drive in the rain, etc, the less you want more displacement. If you want to fry tires you just need a cam with 108 to 110 degree lobe separation. If you want controllable power choose a cam with 112 degree lobe separation or more.

The 351C with 4V heads can make 500 BHP rather willingly, you don't necessarily need alloy heads. But if you want alloy heads, give the new Scott Cook heads a good hard look.

Scott Cook Heads

With a good set of rings, the right amount of compression, a good induction system, a good exhaust system it doesn't take much cam to make 500 BHP with a 351C 4V. The less efficient your induction or exhaust system is, the more cam you need.

You may want to think twice about a solid lifter cam in a Pantera, adjusting valve lash in a Pantera is rather like sleeping on a bed of nails.

The exhaust system in a Pantera is often a bottleneck, not much room for free flowing mufflers, and the largest pipes you can snake through the suspension are about 2-1/4" ID. I run the GTS exhaust system in mine, it looks stock, its quiet, but the GTS mufflers rob about 50 BHP.

-G
____________________________________________________________

Pantera Photos | 351C Historic Information | 351C Technical Information

If you use a 351C 4V powered vehicle for a grocery getter ... the eggs aren't going to make it home!
LIttle background on my driving habits... owned many cars as I love them. All types, makes and shapes but I have owned close to a dozen Porsches. Mostly older ones but my latest was a 74 Carrera. My driving fun is in the twisties usually playing in the 4000 RPM to 7500 RPM range and watching/feeling for the rear end to hit critical mass. My 914/6 was notorious for having a slim line between sliding out or success in a corner. I have only slid the pantera once and I was amazed at how well it did.... point is I'm not about how fast I can get in a straight line. I must admit that sometimes that's fun but I live for the corners. Blasting out of a corner, then on it hard until... brake (Maybe) and setup for the next corner.

That being said.... that's the kind of motor I want. Something quick and has a strong power band. Hey thanks for all of the input here guys. I didn't know GEorge was a Pantera guy. Were you in Reno a couple of weeks ago?

Dave
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Joined: February 17th, 2004, 11:02 pm

June 29th, 2011, 7:06 pm #8

Just joined and to be honest, a little overwhelmed with all of the information. Searched on PAntera and didn't find much in the way of a rebuild. I guess it really does not make a rats ass difference what car it's in.... a 351 is a 351. That being said...... I have the original 72 4 bolt main in my car. It has 55K miles on it and tomorrow I will do a compression test on all the cylinders. I have a new Holly Carb that was setup specifically for the pantera so I was told, it has the red metering blocks. The engine is still pretty damn strong but it reminds me so much of my 396 L78 big block I had in my Camero. TONS of low end torque and it does pull hard until about 5800. I'm not feeling comfortable with anything over that. I think I have the 4V open Chamber heads but I'm not 100% certain on that. Mallory distributor, headers, large capacity oil pan, HO oil pump... it runs at 70LBS. The intake is an Edelbrock that says something like S351 on it. The car like to run between 200 to 230 degree's as I recently replaced the entire cooling system lock stock and barrel. New fluidine radiator and fans. High volume water pump as well. She is burning some oil. 15-50 synthetic.

So..... enough said. bottom line, I'm looking for @ 500HP that idles great, runs cool, and has a power curve that runs the gauntlet from low to high. Longevity and reliability. Have been shown what a solid flat tappet cam and some aluminum heads can do on another members cougar XR. Mind blowing stuff as I have never seen or felt such a beautiful power band with staggering quick responses from the pedal. We were making HARD power down low and all the way to 7000 RPM. I would like to know what others have done.... what combo's have you had luck with. Right now I'm thinking new Aluminum heads, a cam, rings and bearings and of course seals. Please educate this novice..... I take criticism well.

Dave Downer
> Searched on Pantera and didn't find much in the way of a rebuild.

In addition to the PI forum, you might want to consider joining the Detomaso
Email list http://realbig.com/detomaso/). It's a plain old text based email
list but has higher traffic than the PI forum. BTW, I'm also a Pantera owner
and run the 351C dyno program for the Pantera and 351C forums where we dyno
test Cleveland heads, intakes, cams, exhausts, etc on various displacement
Cleveland V8's.

> I think I have the 4V open Chamber heads but I'm not 100% certain on that.

If it has the original heads, they will be open chamber. The OEM loose fit
keepers and 2 piece valves are a disaster waiting to happen. The stock valves
are made from two pieces, friction welded together and use loose fitting
multi-groove keepers (the keepers halves contact each other instead of being
wedged against the stem by retainer). If the valves don't slip out of the
keeper, they'll pop the head off the stem. Aftermarket tight fit multi-groove
keepers are available but you still have the 2 piece valve problem.

> The intake is an Edelbrock that says something like S351 on it.

Most likely F-351, an early version of the Performer low rise dual plane.

> The car like to run between 200 to 230 degree's as I recently replaced the
> entire cooling system lock stock and barrel.

Verify you have the block restrictor plate and a real 351C thermostat. The
351C thermostat is shouldered to fit into the block restrictor plate. If
you go to an auto parts store, they will more often than not give you a 351W
thermostat which will cause the engine to run hot as part of the coolant
flow will bypass the radiator. My Panteras run in the 195 deg F. range.

> I'm looking for @ 500HP that idles great, runs cool, and has a power curve
> that runs the gauntlet from low to high. Longevity and reliability. Have
> been shown what a solid flat tappet cam and some aluminum heads can do on
> another members cougar XR.

Be aware that some aftermarket aluminum heads (specifically the Pro Comp) are
worse than the stock iron heads and lost 30 HP compared to unported stock
4V heads in my dyno testing.

> I would like to know what others have done.... what combo's have you had luck
> with.

We (engine builder Dave McLain and myself) have built and dyno tested 351C,
393C, 408C and 438 Clevor (Dart race block) engines with hydraulic and solid
roller cams and various cylinder heads (2V, 3V, 4V, Pro Comp, Ford Motorsport
A3 and C302) and a bunch of different intake manifolds. Given your desire to
have something that idles well with a broad power band, I'd recommend a 393C
or 408C stroker. As an example, I did a 408C for Mike Drew (quarterly
newsletter editor for the Pantera Owners Club of America). He started with
a rebuilt 351C that just didn't make enough power or toque for Mike. On a
chassis dyno, it made 263 HP. We re-used as much of that engine as possible
but added a 408C stroker kit with an optimized cam. The result was 526 HP
through the mufflers for the best configuration tested. Both engines peaked
at the same 6000 RPM. In addition to making much more power, the 408C also
gets better fuel economy (Mike reports 18+ MPG traveling at 80+ MPH). Mike's
comments after driving the car with the new engine:

"I took the car for a quick drive around the block. WOW! It is
completely and utterly transformed. Cruising at low rpm in 2nd gear,
I punched it, and after bucking once (due to the aforementioned carb
issues), it just lit up the tires, no clutch required. Just ZING!
Even when the tires hooked up, the aluminum flywheel let it rev like
crazy right up to redline. This thing is crazy, crazy fast compared
to how it ran before. After owning this car for 21 years, I finally
have the car I was supposed to have all along!"

You can make similar power with a stock displacement 351C but you will have
to spin the engine to a much higher RPM and low speed performance and idle
quality will suffer. The power band will also be narrower and the throttle
response under 3000 RPM will be sluggish.

I have a couple strokers (one 402C and one 407C) going together now for my
own Panteras. We'll be testing both A3 and C302 Ford Motorsport high port
heads.

> The 351 is plenty of motor for a little Italian sports car. It makes power
> more in the way a sports car should, not like a classic 60's muscle car.
> As a life long 351C enthusiast, I'd say that cubic inches is against the
> spirit behind the 351C. The 351C is about volumetric efficiency, not cubic
> inches.

Of all the Pantera owners that I know that have done strokers, not a single
one of them would return to a standard displacement engine. In addition to
351C's, we've built several 393C and 408C strokers with iron and aluminum
heads and all have been thrilled with the results. After the owner has had
some time with the engine, I follow up to see how they like the power band.
I ask them if they had it to do over again, would they trade some torque for
more power up the RPM band and not a one of them has said yes. Once they
have 500 ft-lbs at 4500 RPM, they don't really want to give it up.

> Some Pantera owners choose to stroke the 351C. However, the Pantera reacts
> violently enough to the 351, it doesn't need the extra displacement. The more
> you drive your car, attack twisting mountain roads, drive in the rain, etc,
> the less you want more displacement.

YMMV but it hasn't happened to me yet.

> If you want to fry tires you just need a cam with 108 to 110 degree lobe
> separation. If you want controllable power choose a cam with 112 degree
> lobe separation or more.

I'd say that's a gross simplification and varies greatly with the displacement
of the engine, among other variables.

> You may want to think twice about a solid lifter cam in a Pantera, adjusting
> valve lash in a Pantera is rather like sleeping on a bed of nails.

True.

> The exhaust system in a Pantera is often a bottleneck, not much room for free
> flowing mufflers, and the largest pipes you can snake through the suspension
> are about 2-1/4" ID. I run the GTS exhaust system in mine, it looks stock, its
> quiet, but the GTS mufflers rob about 50 BHP.

The 50 HP loss that George quotes comes from my dyno testing of both the
standard ANSA mufflers on a 351C and the Euro GTS mufflers on a 408C. Both
lost 50 HP compared to 3" inlet/outlet Magnaflow mufflers. Some Pantera owners
have routed 3" intermediate tubing to the mufflers but 2 1/2" is easier. On
the 408C that will be tested when I return from Singapore, we'll be testing
some 2 1/2" mufflers to see if they'll support 500 to 550 HP. With the wrong
induction and exhaust choices, it's quite easy to throw 100 HP or more away on
these engines.

> Even a 500hp 351 is going to make a car like this a smoke show if you get in
> the gas. I'd rather have the less likelihood of "fussiness" down low and the
> ability to make more horsepower all across the curve.

Ditto.

> I deal a lot with Cobra replicas that weigh 2200-2400 lbs and are front
> engine cars....they will handle 500-600hp without fuss.

And so will the Pantera. I've had plenty of seat time in 500+ HP stroker
Panteras and the chassis handles it without drama.

Dan Jones
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Joined: October 1st, 2004, 8:05 pm

June 30th, 2011, 12:09 am #9

>It's a plain old text based email list but has higher traffic than the PI forum.

I receive the statistics for Pantera International's forum every month, they are very very good, they continue to get better. Nobody has access to information that would support the "higher traffic" claim but me, and I strongly disagree. I will agree the drama & ego of the mail list is greater though. Which is why I stopped participating in the mail list more than a half decade ago. But drama & conflict gives the impression of more activity. The Pantera International Forum, like this forum, expects members to be respectful of one another.

>You can make similar power with a stock displacement 351C but you will have to spin
>the engine to a much higher RPM and low speed performance and idle quality will suffer.
>The power band will also be narrower and the throttle response under 3000 RPM will be sluggish.

Dan has run a couple of cam profiles I threw together on his dynomation software ... low overlap profiles ... that made 470 to 500 BHP at 6000 rpm or less with a standard displacement 351C. Not high rpm, not bad idle quality, not poor low speed performance. If hitting that 500 BHP number is important, it can be done with a 351 at 6000 rpm.




-G
____________________________________________________________

Pantera Photos | 351C Historic Information | 351C Technical Information

If you use a 351C 4V powered vehicle for a grocery getter ... the eggs aren't going to make it home!
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Joined: December 16th, 2003, 1:59 am

June 30th, 2011, 5:38 pm #10

http://pantera.infopop.cc/eve/forums/a/ ... 2601013795




there'll be phantoms, there'll be fires on the road... and the white man dancing
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