Moderator: oldtime

Hello CJ-3B World

sbeilstein
Member
Joined: February 25th, 2013, 11:51 pm

March 18th, 2013, 11:09 pm #1

Hello,

I would like to introduce myself to the forum. I am the new caretaker of a 1954 CJ-3B that was owned by my wife's grandfather. He worked for California-Oregon Power Company (COPCO) in Toketee, Oregon. In 1961 COPCO was purchased by Pacific Power and Light, and apparently they decided to sell the jeeps they owned. My grandfather-in-law purchased the jeep from COPCO in 1962. He took very good care of it and it appears to be almost stock. When he passed away about twenty years ago, the Jeep was towed from his barn in Medford to my in-law's driveway in Albany. It had not run or been driven for any significant time since then. It has sat in their driveway, with some semi-successful attempts throughout the years to get it fired up and moving under it's own power.

DSC07988 by SBeilstein, on Flickr


DSC07955 by SBeilstein, on Flickr


DSC07954 by SBeilstein, on Flickr


DSC07951 by SBeilstein, on Flickr




That's where my part in the story comes in. I volunteered to take on the project and get his CJ-3B running and hopefully driving. My only experience with automotive repair comes from 3 years of auto-tech in high school which was now years ago. The assumed status of the jeep at the time was the expansion/core/freeze plugs most likely had popped out and the block was likely cracked. There was also known issues with the fuel system. I assumed a full engine replacement/rebuild would be necessary. Fortunately, I have a lot of family, friend, and online resources including this forum.

Three weeks ago; Driveway Day:

My dad and I arrived at my in-laws at 9 in the morning. We proceeded to open the hood, and do a visual inspection. Everything looked pretty good, so we jacked it up and pulled the oil plug. About 5 gallons of water or more ran out of the oil drain plug. The water level measured 10" from the bottom of the dipstick. We assumed the block was bad with this much water in it. We couldn't find a 1-3/8" socket to turn the engine over manually, so we tried with the starter and it actually turned over. We then began testing pressure in each cylinder, the cylinders read the following initial PSI from front to rear; 30-30-30-60. We dropped some oil into the cylinders and reran the compression tests, compression improved slightly to; 40-40-40-40-70. As I understand, the compression should be around 100, so there is possible trouble with the valves and rings sealing properly. We then began to test the electrical to see if we could get a spark. We replaced the plugs with new gapped spark plugs, and tested for spark using a spark tester, there was no spark at the plugs or between the coil and distributor. We pulled the distributor cap and the rotor was broken so we replaced the rotor but still no spark. Then we tried to test the coil and got varying results. The coil had a dent in the back bottom part of it, so we decided it may be the problem. We purchased a new coil from Knecht's for $16. We replaced the coil and still no spark. So then we replaced the condenser and we got a spark at the points. We reconnected the distributor, and got a spark at the plugs. During the replacement of the coil, the air breather and oil bath filter had to be removed and it was completely full of water also. My dad pulled a stud bolt that mounts the coil to the block, and it somehow goes through the coolant jacket in the block. When this happened anti-freeze ran out. So the block may have been protected from freezing. Also all visible freeze plugs were intact, although there may be another plug on the back of the engine that we couldn't see (a mirror might help in the future.) We added about 4 qts of new SAE30 motor oil, until the dipstick read full. There was no gas in the tank, so we inspected the tank and everything looked good and added about a gallon of gas. We also pulled the drain on the radiator, and no water drained, so we filled the radiator with water. We never opened the block drain valve on the passenger side of the block, but assume it is full of antifreeze. Please note the thermostat didn't open so no water got into the block. Not sure how the radiator drained itself either. So we plugged everything back in and sprayed some gas and starter fluid into the carburetor and turned it over and it fired up and ran for about 20 seconds. Later tries to fire it up were less and less successful, possibly due to fouling of the plugs from the WD-40 and SAE30 in the cylinders that we used for the compresson test. A quick test of the fuel line from the fuel pump to the tank by plugging the air compressor into the line, showed that it is plugged somewhere.

Overall it was a successful day. There is speculation on how the water got into the crankcase, but no definitive answer, the current idea is condensation in the oil bath air cleaner which then ran into crank case through the breathing port on the dipstick tube, or down the intake manifold.

Last Weekend; Moving Day and Running Day:

Last Saturday, Dad and I picked up a U-Haul trailer and drove to my in-law's to pick up the Jeep. We met them before they were off to a 70th wedding anniversary celebration. We decided to just get it loaded on the trailer and work on it in my garage, rather than try to do anything in the driveway. The loading went well, and we strapped it down and we were off to the Jeep's new home.

We got the Jeep back to Sherwood and we attached an air compressor to the fuel line to see if it was plugged, and 125 psi wouldn't move blow through, so it was decided to attach some tubing and a funnel directly to the fuel pump, and see if the fuel pump and the rest of the fuel system was working. Well, after some starting fluid the jeep started right up and ran as long as we kept filling the funnel with gas! The next day I pulled the drivers seat and gas tank, and rinsed the tank out with some gas, and scrubbed the gas cap. There was a good amount of gunk in the tank that came out. I then replaced the fuel line and filled the tank a little. After some trial and error (the tank wasn't full enough at first, and required some troubleshooting) the Jeep was running off of it's own fuel tank! I let the engine warm up while watching the engine temp gauge very closely, and sure enough at 180F the thermostat opened and coolant started flowing! The next thing I plan to do is the brakes so I can at least see if it will move under it's own power. I pulled the cover to the master cylinder, but the bolt on the cap is a large one and I don't have the correct socket, so that may have to wait a little bit.

The CJ-3B either came with some nice options or it appears that some aftermarket work may have taken place over the years. The list of my suspected options/aftermarket work include;

The engine has a PCV valve installed which doesn't seem right for a 1954.
There is a bowl-less fuel/vacuum pump and an inline fuel filter at the carburetor.
There is a heater that appears to be the same type that would have come with the jeep.
There is a rear seat that is no longer mounted to the jeep.
Their is a push-button start on the dash.
The engine is painted red.
There is a turn-signal switch on the steering column.
There is a small defrost fan attached to the steering column.
There is a strange little red-light on the dash, that I haven't figured out yet.
The side steps are gone.
There is a COPCO first-aid kit case attached to the back of the passenger seat.
It was painted a teal when my mother-in-law used it in high school.The original wheels, tires, and top have been replaced, when my brother-in-law tried to revive it in high school 15 years ago. And the interior was spray painted grey.

Overall the Jeep is in great shape, not a lot of rust, and the frame seems pretty straight. I count myself as extremely lucky for the current state of the CJ-3B after years of storage. I plan on doing a very minimal restoration and use it for recreational driving. My plan consists of basically, getting it running and safe to drive short distances, and minimizing any additional damage from rust, etc.

One thing that is bothering me is I cannot find an engine number on the water pump boss, no matter how much I clean, and stare at it. If anyone has any advice/techniques on locating this I would really appreciate it.

Here is a photo of where I think the engine number should be. The case number is 802679-W-12-D-AR.


DSC08122 by SBeilstein, on Flickr



I promise most future posts will be shorter...
Sherwood, OR
1954 CJ-3B / Rebuilt F-134 / Carter YF 938 SD Carburetor / Carter Fuel Filter / 6 Volt / Auto-Lite IAD-4008 A 3T Distributor / AC 4693 Dual Action Fuel/Vacuum Pump / Faulkner Rebuilt Starter Code 3382 / Auto-Lite GGW (No Plaque) Generator / American Bosch RGS 6G113 Voltage Regulator / Cutlas Power-Lock Hubs / Signal-Stat Signal Switch and Rear Light Housings / Harrison Heater with Switch / Dash Button Start with Auto-Lite Solenoid
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oldtime
Member
Joined: July 12th, 2008, 8:28 pm

March 18th, 2013, 11:37 pm #2

Welcome to the CJ-3B Bulletin Board !
Very nice thorough self introduction !

In your first pic I first noticed the very hard to find original CJ-3B Chaff screen
wrote:The engine has a PCV valve installed which doesn't seem right for a 1954
Supply pic to determine its origin
wrote:There is a heater that appears to be the same type that would have come with the jeep.
The Harrison heater is correct for your Jeeps vintage.
wrote:Their is a push-button start on the dash.
Definately an add on.
wrote:The engine is painted red
The red paint and the fact that the engine serial number was ground off implies that the engine was previously rebuilt.
wrote:There is a strange little red-light on the dash, that I haven't figured out yet.
High beam indicator.
Currently building my final F-134 powered 3B .
Rock Crawler using factory parts from the Willys Motors era (1953-1963)

http://s4.zetaboards.com/CJ3B_Bulletin_ ... 766/1/#new
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Bob
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Bob
Member
Joined: October 30th, 2008, 7:14 pm

March 19th, 2013, 12:11 pm #3

sbeilstein, congrats, that's a pretty nice looking jeep for having sat that long. The PCV valve was a standard thing on these. Did you do another compression check after you got it running?
Bob
1953 CJ3B
1965(?) CJ5
1949 Jeepster
1947 Cj2A
2004 Kubota l3400
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sbeilstein
Member
Joined: February 25th, 2013, 11:51 pm

March 19th, 2013, 4:00 pm #4

Thank you for the welcome.

I didn't realize the original chaff guards were hard to find, it does have some damage where one of the mounting brackets tore through the screen. I haven't done another compression test yet, I was going to run some engine flush through it and change the oil and filter first. I posted some more pictures below.

Here you can see the dash, heater, etc.

DSC07985 by SBeilstein, on Flickr

COPCO Plaque, and heater.

DSC07982 by SBeilstein, on Flickr

Here you can see the seats.

DSC07987 by SBeilstein, on Flickr

Here is the PCV and bowl-less fuel pump.

DSC07966 by SBeilstein, on Flickr
Sherwood, OR
1954 CJ-3B / Rebuilt F-134 / Carter YF 938 SD Carburetor / Carter Fuel Filter / 6 Volt / Auto-Lite IAD-4008 A 3T Distributor / AC 4693 Dual Action Fuel/Vacuum Pump / Faulkner Rebuilt Starter Code 3382 / Auto-Lite GGW (No Plaque) Generator / American Bosch RGS 6G113 Voltage Regulator / Cutlas Power-Lock Hubs / Signal-Stat Signal Switch and Rear Light Housings / Harrison Heater with Switch / Dash Button Start with Auto-Lite Solenoid
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oldtime
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Joined: July 12th, 2008, 8:28 pm

March 19th, 2013, 4:12 pm #5

Correct Harrison heater.
Correct PCV valve which is part of the closed crankcase ventilating system.
Willys is generally credited with inventing the closed crankcase ventilating system.
They were originally installed to ford streams / deep water in the MB military jeeps.
These are the absolute finest quality PCV valves that were ever designed.
Only the pre 1964 CJ's and the Military Jeeps have them.
They are cleanable and not a throw away design.
Kaiser later went to a disposable PCV valve.

That's a replacement fuel pump.
Currently building my final F-134 powered 3B .
Rock Crawler using factory parts from the Willys Motors era (1953-1963)

http://s4.zetaboards.com/CJ3B_Bulletin_ ... 766/1/#new
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sbeilstein
Member
Joined: February 25th, 2013, 11:51 pm

July 17th, 2013, 3:40 pm #6

I had some progress on getting our Jeep driveable so I figured I would post an update.

I got the Jeep back from the brake shop last Friday. They inspected the entire brake system, and repaired the brake line I mangled while trying to troubleshoot the brakes myself. They also worked a little on the parking brake, but said the cable was too long and couldn't do anything else without a new cable. This was the point I decided I just wanted the Jeep back and I could take care of the rest, so I had it towed back to the house.

When it first got back I managed to get it started and running a couple times after a lot of starting fluid, and hooking it to the battery charger for a jump. However, it died both times after a few minutes of rough idling. I was able to move it under its own power during one of these sessions. So the clutch, and first and reverse gear work at low speed. On the last attempt to get it back into the garage the throttle linkage came loose on the carb and it started at a high rpm, and I shut it off immediately. I then noticed oil smoke, and oil leaking from the oil pan gasket, and the side gasket on the block. After discussing this with my Dad, I had decided that the PCV valve must have been plugged (plus the breather hose from the intake to the oil filler was connected directly rather than to a clean air source) and there was no where for the crankcase gases to vent so it built up enough pressure to blow both gaskets. This is where I left the Jeep on Friday night.

For the rest of the weekend, the Jeep would not start and run, it would just sputter and stop. So last night I decided I was going to fix as much stuff as I could to try to eliminate any trouble spots. I replaced the points, and gapped them, cleaned and gapped all the spark plugs, replaced the spark plug cables, distributor cap, cleaned the battery terminals, cleaned the air cleaner and reinstalled it, replaced the PCV valve (which interestingly enough the old one had no valve anymore), and reinstalled the breather hoses. After all of this I still couldn't get it to start, so I disconnected the fuel line at the carb, and realized that it was pumping air, so I filled the gas tank some more and sure enough it started pumping fuel. Anyway, after all of this the Jeep is now starting fairly reliably without any starting fluid and on the first crank of the starter. So I considered last night a success!

I still need to replace the gaskets that were blown out in the process of all of this, but I am probably going to run some engine cleaner through it, and check the timing, and compression one last time. Then I'll replace the gaskets and do an oil change, and it should be ready to go for dry, daytime driving!












Sherwood, OR
1954 CJ-3B / Rebuilt F-134 / Carter YF 938 SD Carburetor / Carter Fuel Filter / 6 Volt / Auto-Lite IAD-4008 A 3T Distributor / AC 4693 Dual Action Fuel/Vacuum Pump / Faulkner Rebuilt Starter Code 3382 / Auto-Lite GGW (No Plaque) Generator / American Bosch RGS 6G113 Voltage Regulator / Cutlas Power-Lock Hubs / Signal-Stat Signal Switch and Rear Light Housings / Harrison Heater with Switch / Dash Button Start with Auto-Lite Solenoid
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Rus Curtis
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Joined: October 16th, 2008, 5:17 am

July 17th, 2013, 4:18 pm #7

Nice work! Nice jeep! Nice write up!

The ventilation hook ups (PCV and breather hoses) "looked" correct in your initial posts. A working PCV will help with getting the engine to run properly (I used a cheap disposable one at first).

Sounds like you've been able to get the jeep up to operating temperature. Since the cooling system pressurizes at temp., you can check the oil and coolant to see if the two fluids are mixing - and identify any radiator leaks. If not, your assumption about collecting water during storage may be correct. I would still be concerned about the valves and check the clearances before running too long.

Good luck!
Rus Curtis
Alabama
'54 CJ-3B "Green Gruntt"
Bantam T3-C
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sbeilstein
Member
Joined: February 25th, 2013, 11:51 pm

May 11th, 2017, 6:04 pm #8

Well after a few years of just enjoying running the 3B around our property I got into obsessive mode after pulling the oil pan, and deciding it was time to get this thing road worthy. So I have some new pictures.

EDIT: For the sake of record keeping, I had a lot of trouble a few years ago getting the Jeep to run. Here were my final conclusions to the problem along with a link to the diagnostic post.


Diagnosis Started May 2014, Ended November 2014:
The carburetor that was originally installed was a modified 938SA. After tearing it apart, I realized there were multiple problems with it. I eventually found a 938SD carburetor on ebay, and rebuilt it instead with parts from various locations (old carb, rebuild kit, new metering jet from Mike's.) I also bought a Carter ceramic fuel filter off ebay and installed it on the carburetor. (I now know these carb's very well, and had a lot of fun and frustration rebuilding them multiple times.)

I then installed the rebuilt SD carburetor and got the engine to run for the longest period yet, but after about 9 minutes it still died. Also, it would initially sputter and backfire when I tried to throttle it up. I was able to get a timing light on it though during this time and could see that the timing was definitely off by 30 degrees or so, and it was jumping around by about 10 degrees. I also had a light inline with the #1 plug and could see I was getting a bad spark when it was starting to sputter and eventually die. So, then I knew I had an electrical issue.

So, last night I static timed it, replaced and gapped the points, replaced the condenser, installed a ground strap (that was missing), and cleaned and confirmed the gap on the plugs.

This time when I started it, it stayed running for probably around 30 minutes until I shut it off.
Some interesting things to note:
I had a leak from the fuel filter to the carb, and so I installed teflon thread seal tape. I knew this was a bad idea but did it anyway :o. The tape came off immediately and went into the carb. The interesting thing was when I pulled the #1 plug, the tape was stuck to it. So somehow the tape got through the carb and into the #1 cylinder and stayed there while it was running for a few minutes.

Also, after I static timed the engine with the timing notch at 5 degrees before BTC on the #1 cylinder and also rotating the engine through some rotations to remove any backlash (as stated in the owner's manual), and got it running, I put the timing light on it and the timing notch was showing actually around 15 degrees BTC (not the 5 degrees I set it at.) I tried to adjust the distributor while it was running and any adjustment made it run worse, so I left it at the position I static timed it at. If anyone has any idea why this may be I would be interested to know.
I posted a couple videos of the timing, and also the rpm's at idle and dwell at idle. The dwell appears to be off also at around 52 degrees. Note, multiply the rpm and dwell by two, the meter is set for an 8-cylinder.

Timing There is a scratch mark that you can barely see, which is where the timing notch is.
Dwell

So, now it's on to the rest of the stuff I need/want to do. Including, rebuilding a 4693 fuel pump and replacing the non-glass one that is installed, refurbishing the body, replacing the emergency brake cable (which stretched or something), finding and installing an original drawbar, checking the valve timing and clearance, adding seat belts and maybe a rollbar, making the wipers and heater fan, work and on and on.

But either way this was a major milestone that was accomplished and I REALLY!!! appreciate all the help I got from member's of this forum (you know who you are.) I could not have done this without you. So thank you so much!

High Idle, Then Dies, Can't Restart




Current Update:
I have pulled the fenders, hood, windshield, radiator guard, and tailgate and sent them to be sand blasted. I pulled the oil pan and valve covers and adjusted valves and repainted the covers. Then I decided I might as well pull everything off the engine and repaint the engine. So that is what I did last night. Here are some pictures of the process. I am hoping to have the jeep ready to bring to a local car show on June 10. So, I am pretty much working every night I can after work to get it done. I plan on repainting while leaving most of the scars (dents, tears, intact.) I consider them all part of the story of the jeep at this point. I am just trying to clean it up a little, and get it back to stock. The old rear crossmember is getting replaced with something more like the original setup with a drawbar. I am removing the lights from the front fenders and will wire the signals to the parking lights. I think I am going to keep the spare tire carrier off, and remove the side mirror and just use a mirror above the windshield. I decided to just stick to a low gloss black for the engine paint. I cleaned up the engine first as best I could with a foaming degreaser, then pressure washing, then more degreaser and wire brushing, then more pressure washing, more scrubbing, more pressure washing, finally I went over it with some steel wool and wiped it down with brakleen before using my backpack blower and a space heater to dry it off as best I could. I just used duplicolor rattle can engine enamel. I am getting the exhaust header blasted, and will probably paint it the same. I looked into ceramacoating the exhaust but it is not in this budget.

I am planning on using airplane stripper to strip the body as much as I can, then sand the rest. I figure I am going to just paint everything myself with a single stage after a primer. I do have some welding work that needs to be done, that I am not comfortable with, so I am now going to start reaching out to see if anyone can get the welding done in my time frame. Wish me luck on that one.











Sherwood, OR
1954 CJ-3B / Rebuilt F-134 / Carter YF 938 SD Carburetor / Carter Fuel Filter / 6 Volt / Auto-Lite IAD-4008 A 3T Distributor / AC 4693 Dual Action Fuel/Vacuum Pump / Faulkner Rebuilt Starter Code 3382 / Auto-Lite GGW (No Plaque) Generator / American Bosch RGS 6G113 Voltage Regulator / Cutlas Power-Lock Hubs / Signal-Stat Signal Switch and Rear Light Housings / Harrison Heater with Switch / Dash Button Start with Auto-Lite Solenoid
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sbeilstein
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Joined: February 25th, 2013, 11:51 pm

May 11th, 2017, 6:05 pm #9










Sherwood, OR
1954 CJ-3B / Rebuilt F-134 / Carter YF 938 SD Carburetor / Carter Fuel Filter / 6 Volt / Auto-Lite IAD-4008 A 3T Distributor / AC 4693 Dual Action Fuel/Vacuum Pump / Faulkner Rebuilt Starter Code 3382 / Auto-Lite GGW (No Plaque) Generator / American Bosch RGS 6G113 Voltage Regulator / Cutlas Power-Lock Hubs / Signal-Stat Signal Switch and Rear Light Housings / Harrison Heater with Switch / Dash Button Start with Auto-Lite Solenoid
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sbeilstein
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Joined: February 25th, 2013, 11:51 pm

May 11th, 2017, 6:08 pm #10



r




Sherwood, OR
1954 CJ-3B / Rebuilt F-134 / Carter YF 938 SD Carburetor / Carter Fuel Filter / 6 Volt / Auto-Lite IAD-4008 A 3T Distributor / AC 4693 Dual Action Fuel/Vacuum Pump / Faulkner Rebuilt Starter Code 3382 / Auto-Lite GGW (No Plaque) Generator / American Bosch RGS 6G113 Voltage Regulator / Cutlas Power-Lock Hubs / Signal-Stat Signal Switch and Rear Light Housings / Harrison Heater with Switch / Dash Button Start with Auto-Lite Solenoid
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