Joined: April 23rd, 2016, 11:23 am

September 12th, 2017, 1:39 am #31

Ok here's the latest. My curiosity was killing me so I pulled the timing cover off tonight. I have gears so I would guess that they got the opposite rotation part correct. The part that I saw immediately that didn't look right was the dots on the gears were not lined up properly IF the opposite rotation gear drive is set up the same as normal timing chain gears...the two dots are to be right next to each other (dot on the crank gear straight up and the dot on the cam gear straight down). With my crank gear straight up the dot on the cam gear was straight up as well indicating to me that the cam was timed 180 off.
I changed the position of the cam so that the dots aligned, this coupled with the fact that #1 is at TDC and the flywheel timing dot was on the pointer I believe it is ready to fire again. That will be tomorrow's activity.
If any of this doesn't sound right please let me know so that I can take appropriate measures to correct it.
Thank you!

Craig Wilson
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Joined: July 15th, 2005, 8:09 pm

September 12th, 2017, 10:54 am #32

Andy said: "It will be the same. If he spun it one more revolution, the dots would line up. Every other revolution, the dots are top/top. One spins twice as fast as the other."

John said: "My guess is that you have the wrong tin on the timing chain cover or the damper rubber has spun."



Andy said: "The crank spins two times for each revolution of the camshaft. When he pulled it and put it back in with the dots lined up, and the distributor out, all the lifters and pushrods out, then reassembled it, it is essentially in the same position as before. Once you put all of the lifters and pushrods back in, then drop the distributor in, spin the crank one time, it will be in the same position. Everyone said to check that the dots were lined to make sure it wasn't just a tooth or two off, which would make it out of time. If they were lined up both at 12:00, it was installed correctly already.

When the dots are lined up(top/bottom,12/6), that is NOT #1 TDC, it is #6 TDC Compression and #1 exhaust stroke.
12/12 is #1 TDC Compression stroke."

John said: "Hi Andy it's been a while since I set a camshaft, but from what I remember the dot on the camshaft is set at 6 o'clock and the dot on the Crankshaft is set at 12 o'clock, so that's two dots meet. Correct?"

Andy said: "Yes. That is the easiest way to line it up, but that is often confused as #1 TDC, since the #1 piston is at the top of it's stroke, which is right, but the exhaust valve is open, so it is the top of the exhaust stroke, not TDC.

When you spin the crank one time, the cam(bigger pulley) dot is now at 12:00 and the crank pulley is also at 12:00, this is #1 TDC. Both valves are closed at this point and the fuel and air mixture is compressed, ready for fire."




Dean said: "Since so many things have been monkeyed around with I would start over with the basics. Take the valve cover off the bank that has number one cylinder in it. The crankshaft must be at top dead center and you have no way of knowing that unless you check to see if both valves on number one are solidly closed. Pull number one spark plug out and turn the crankshaft in the same direction the engine is supposed to turn. In this case that should be with the flywheel going clockwise. As you get compression in number one, stop when the timing mark alines at zero. Both dots on the cam and crank should be right next to each other. Then check to make sure both pushrods on number one cylinder can be turned easily with your fingers. That would indicate there is no tension on them and the cam is in the proper place. Remove and re-index your distributor keeping in mind it's going to turn clockwise. Get the rotor pointing toward the carburetor as close as possible and that will be your number one terminal on the distributor. Pull all the plug wires off the distributor and start over assuring you have the correct firing order for the right-hand rotation motor. Check and doublecheck this it's important! Keep the distributor slightly loose so you can turn it as you try to start the motor for the first time. And you'll probably need to turn it slightly counter clockwise to get the timing before top dead center. Get the motor to start hopefully no backfires and then set timing with the timing light. At the same time 🙏"



Last edited by FEfinaticP on September 12th, 2017, 2:23 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Joined: April 23rd, 2016, 11:23 am

September 13th, 2017, 11:30 am #33

Hi all,
I'm sorry I've been away and not able to reply to all these wonderful help replies.
I'm at the point now where as Dean says I need to start from scratch.
Last night I pulled the timing cover off again and went through dean's instructions. This method of timing a cam is the way I have always done it with the timing dots together at TDC but I'm confused by Andy's statement about this not being the compression stroke. When in this configuration both pushrods are loose indicating both valves are closed correct? If you start there and rotate the crank 1 revolution would that not be the end of the exhaust stroke and the beginning of the intake stroke and the intake valve would be open or beginning to open indicated by tension on the intake pushrod? In my mind this would not be firing position. Or is there a brief period between exhaust and intake where both valves are closed confusing the whole issue?

Craig Wilson
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Paul
Paul

September 13th, 2017, 2:30 pm #34

Get someone to slowly rotate the motor in the proper direction, while you put your finger on the open spark plug hole on cylinder number one. Record exactly when there is a suction and compression. That will get you close to where you can start degreeing things in specifically.

http://www.animatedengines.com/otto.html

Regards,

Paul
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Paul
Paul

September 13th, 2017, 2:37 pm #35

Reading all of this, I'm still not convinced you had all the wires hooked up properly to the plugs. I say this because I have personally made this error myself even though I have checked the rotation of the distributor to be sure, and then checked the cylinders, etc., and still got one wrong. And of course, motors will run this way but won't run all that well. Don't assume you know which way the distributor is turning, verify it with the diagrams and actual rotation.

One day I was invited aboard a 427 powered Commander and the guy was a very successful businessman in his particular field, but had no mechanical ability to speak of and admitted it frequently. We left the docks and things seemed just fine, but I kept smelling fuel. Finally I said, hey, let me take a look at that motor, just wondering if the choke had stuck shut, and when we opened the hatch lo-and-behold, there was a plug wire just dangling loose, lol, and when we hooked it up the fuel smell went away. I was quite suprised how well a 427 would run on 7 cylinders, the darn thing started just fine, we pulled away from the docks and took off, and it wasn't even readily apparant that one was running on 7 until I started to smell it.

Good luck on your project, you will find out what the issue is one way or another. Keep us posted.

Paul
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Joined: July 15th, 2005, 8:09 pm

September 19th, 2017, 3:46 pm #36







Hey I hope to hear some good news from you, hope things are working out with that motor. Keep us posted !!!!!!

Paul
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Joined: April 23rd, 2016, 11:23 am

September 24th, 2017, 11:16 pm #37

Thanks Paul,
I've been working out of town for the past week and a half so nothing has been happening on the boat.
I think I am going to take the motor to an engine builder to have a pro diagnose the symptoms and remedy the situation. At this time I can also have the engine dyno'd to find out for sure what I have for horsepower so I can buy the right prop the first time without guess work.
I can only bang my head against the wall so many times and I have other fish to fry on this project.
Once the issue is identified I will indeed post an update.

Craig Wilson
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Joined: July 15th, 2005, 8:09 pm

September 29th, 2017, 3:58 pm #38

Good luck with it buddy. I am wrestling with an issue here, not sure what it is either. Keep us posted, you know we're pulling for you.

best,
Paul
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John Moore
John Moore

September 30th, 2017, 4:02 pm #39

The 1968 23 Commander came with 327F or 427. The 327F is installed backwards, with flywheel forward, and must spin the transmission Left Hand in order to make the prop spin Right Hand. Therefore the F is a Right Hand (otherwise known as Opposite Rotation) motor.

The 1969 23 Commander came with 327Q or 427. The 327Q is installed frontwards, with flywheel aft, and is mated up to the transmission at what we will call the "front" of the motor. Therefore it is a Left Hand motor because it too must spin the transmission hub Left Hand in order to make the prop spin Right Hand.

We thank Bill Policastro, of GHOST RIDER for this awesome tech info.

Regards,
Paul
I'm not trying to ruffle feathers here, but the Q engines are the flywheel forward models. The F models are flywheel rearward in normal manner. The Q engines have a Chris Craft firing order that is not related to any SBC engine. The number one cylinder is at the front of the engine on its left side as viewed from aft in Q installation. The distributor rotates clockwise. Q engines time at 10°@ 500 RPM. Q engines have dimples in the flywheel for both Right hand and Left hand rotations. The dimples are marked R and L accordingly. A starboard Q engine rotates in normal engine manner whereas a Port Q engine rotates reverse. Starboard Qs have timing chains. Port Qs have timing gears.Port Q engine distributor also rotates clockwise with a different firing order. J.
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Paul
Paul

January 2nd, 2018, 8:00 pm #40

Good luck with it buddy. I am wrestling with an issue here, not sure what it is either. Keep us posted, you know we're pulling for you.

best,
Paul
The following note was posted by Craig on another web site:


"Hi to all that have been following my new engine timing problem.
My engine now resides at a top notch engine builder's shop. This being the slow season for building racing engines he agreed to take on my problem child engine for diagnosis and eventual repair.
That's all that's been going on lately except for a couple of trips to the Islands for some pre-winter R&R.
I posed a question on the Commander forum and got no replies so I thought I'd try it here for some opinions.
As you know I will be replacing the long (12') exhaust hoses with new, in fact I have decided to use 3" copper pipe instead of wet hose...it's actually a little cheaper and I know how nice the wood boat sounds breathing through copper so this engine should sound even better.
So here is the question for your consideration; Should I run the copper pipe downhill all the way so no water sits in them or should I run them uphill to trap water creating that big block old cruiser sound where it has to build up exhaust pressure to force the water out?
Of course this is all for effect at Idle, anything above an idle will force the water out anyway.

Craig
Craig Wilson
Churchville, NY
Alexandria Bay, NY"



Comment: I don't recall seeing this posted here on The Forum, sorry if we let you down, however, it seems like you got the info you were looking for. Regards, Paul
Last edited by FEfinaticP on January 2nd, 2018, 8:02 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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