Chris Craft 20 "Italien"

Chris Craft 20 "Italien"

Joined: April 8th, 2012, 8:18 am

April 8th, 2012, 9:36 am #1

Hello,
I bought an old Chris Craft Capri 20 Italien, which I currently restore. Unfortunately I only found a brochure photo in your forum, so I need all the information and pictures of you.

I have some information about the boat, according to nameplate and boat papers.
Here the data:
Year of construction: 1973 ??
Length: 6.00 m
Width: 2.31 m
Achievement: V8 230 HP
Transmission: V-drive
Boat number: ORAV-20-6025-Z

Furthermore, I would be interested to know how many other boats still exist or who has still such a boat.
Pictures of my boat coming soon.

I hope you can help me.

Yours sincerely
H. Naroska

P.S .: Unfortunately, I speak only very little in English and have translated this text with the help of a translation tool.
Quote
Like
Share

Joined: July 15th, 2005, 8:09 pm

April 8th, 2012, 1:10 pm #2

Hello and Welcome!

Edit note: This thread is being left as it is, but you can see here I
mistakenly thought Horst had a Cutlass similar to the one we saw in Croatia
a few months ago, but he did indeed, have a fiberglass Capri. Read on, it
gets very interesting........regards, Paul, forum moderator

We only recently became aware of the 20 Cutlass one day when we received photos from Croatia. Then Herb Pocklington, who was in charge of Chris Craft European operations sent us a brochure photo, and he said that particular boat was produced in small quantities because it did not sell well, but served well as a "bridge product" or a stepping stone to another similar model.

Not many were built, and therefore not many remain. Your boat serial number suggests it is #25, but I don't know how many others were built. With 230 horsepower it would be a lot of fun. In addition, the look, style, and function of this model would make it of interest virtually anywhere it would appear, either at a boat show or out front of a high end yacht club.

We don't have much on this model but we will share what we have. We do have a lot of info about the motor and drivetrain. Looking forward to seeing your photos,

best,

Paul





Last edited by FEfinaticP on April 10th, 2012, 10:47 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Quote
Like
Share

Joined: April 8th, 2012, 8:18 am

April 8th, 2012, 3:25 pm #3

Hello Paul,
many thanks for the quick answer.
Will send you a few pictures.

Because I have investigated about months on the Internet, I could find, unfortunately, no boat. Me would interest whether it exists somewhere in this world still such a boat.
Because this is the first day, I hope that maybe even more people can read this contribution and deliver to me further information.

Yours sincerely and glad Easter
H. Naroska














Quote
Like
Share

Joined: March 8th, 2012, 7:33 pm

April 9th, 2012, 11:15 am #4

Hi,
Its hard to find any info on the Italian built boats. I still wonder if there are any leftovers from the CC premises in Fiumincino were they were built, around 10 years ago there still were some documentation and moulds for some of the boats built on the site.
The Capri was built using the 19' Lancer hull so all dimensions are the same, only the interior and the driveline differ. Found 2 leaflets where the Capri is included for the model years -74 -75, quite likely that they were built only these 2 years. Sorry for the blurred first image. -1974: 1975:
Quote
Like
Share

Joined: April 8th, 2012, 8:18 am

April 9th, 2012, 1:16 pm #5

Hey Thomas,
thank you for the answer and the great pictures.
Since I would like to build up my ship originally faithfully, I have noticed an emblem in the 2nd picture from 1974 (which is in the front third of the boat) which I lack.
Unfortunately, I have no idea how it looks like (I know only of the Lancer in the back area).
Informations about the emblem or where i can buy it or who has one, I would be grateful.

Again many thanks.
Greetings from Germany
Horst
Quote
Like
Share

Joined: March 8th, 2012, 7:33 pm

April 9th, 2012, 1:57 pm #6

Hi Horst,
Its actually not an emblem but a dropshaped navigation light together with the tank vent that gives the impression of an emblem! Seems to be no other specific "Capri" emblem on the boat just the CC logos.
Last edited by Thomas-CC-lancer on April 9th, 2012, 1:59 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Quote
Like
Share

Paul
Paul

April 9th, 2012, 2:00 pm #7

Hey Thomas,
thank you for the answer and the great pictures.
Since I would like to build up my ship originally faithfully, I have noticed an emblem in the 2nd picture from 1974 (which is in the front third of the boat) which I lack.
Unfortunately, I have no idea how it looks like (I know only of the Lancer in the back area).
Informations about the emblem or where i can buy it or who has one, I would be grateful.

Again many thanks.
Greetings from Germany
Horst
Good morning Horst and Thomas,

Well I waited until I could get to a computer rather than an iPhone to view the images and the thumbnails Horst sent are so small and pixelated I can not see any real detail. Horst, if you can send larger images that would be great. Thomas, thanks for the info, your comment about "10 years ago" there was some sort of documentation about the old CC molds is very interesting. What do you know about that?

I do know from the source, that when CC pulled out of Italy Herb Pocklington had already gone on to Hatteras, but CC "pulled out of Italy in the night" apparently leaving some unpaid bills, etc., and there is no telling what happened to the molds or if other boats were manufactured from them with another brand name, etc.

The boat Horst has is interesting because there are no other ORAV boats listed in the US Essential Guide except the 23' V-drive Lancer Premiere/Custon Super Sport of 1970, which was actually a rebadged 23 Commander after the Commander officially ran its course as a 1968 and 1969 model.

When I first got the message from Horst, I thought we had another 20 Corsair like the one reported from Croatia, but this boat is much different and it looks basically like a blend of 19' US Lancer with an Italian 23 Monte Carlo twist, with V-drive.

From what I can see, and admittedly, the photos are tough to see detail, it looks like Horst has a V-drive boat with an aft sun pad. If this is the case then it follows the Italian format Herb Pocklington initiated after seeing what Carlo Riva was doing in wood. Herb told me he asked his manufacturing and design guys to come up with a boat like that and they did, called the 23 Monte Carly, essentially another rebadged 23 Commander with V-drive and we have seen a few come up here on THE FORUM; one in Spain, one in France. Herb told me his staff was concerned about the liability of a boat of this nature with a sun pad and they added side safety rails, still a concern but Herb said "build it". Now we see another boat if similar style with a sun pad, and it is one of few that got the feature, as we only seem to have one model here in the US that had that feature and it was not all that popular as it was on the Riviera in the Mediterranean, and that is the 19' XK-19 of 1970 - 1975

Thomas you mentioned the boat Horst has is a version of that boat, which makes sense. Looking at the XK-19 data I was suprised to find yet another entry for a ORAV-19 model, which may actually be the same wetted hull configuration Horst has in Italian topsides, which is noted as a 1970 v-drive model, ORAV-19, did not have the siesta padded upholstery on the aft deck, and was powered by a CC 327QA motor.

Herb told me that US Chris Craft was controlled by Harry Coll, and European Chris Craft was controlled by him; the two companies were certainly related but they were (by international law) independent on operations, etc. Therefore Herb was able to produce hybrid boats using US molds but with different topsides and all of the US motors and such, but the manufacture and sales, tax reporting, etc., were all regulated by Italian and European law.

Since CC used the "shoebox construction technique" where the basic hull and motor remained the same, but a new topside casting could be added to make the boat either a XK-19 or a 19' Lancer, it allowed Europe to experiment with many different designs that were suited for their own market. The 20' Corsair for instance, never reached the US, but was designed specifically for Europe, using this same basic hull but with outdrive.

Regards,

Paul
Forum Moderator

Quote
Share

Joined: August 26th, 2011, 11:36 am

April 9th, 2012, 4:21 pm #8

It appears that while this has the sunpad layout like the Xk's, the hull was not cut down and seems to be the same as the Lancer. I think this is quite a bit more practical but does take away some cockpit space.
Quote
Like
Share

Joined: April 8th, 2012, 8:18 am

April 9th, 2012, 5:43 pm #9

Good morning Horst and Thomas,

Well I waited until I could get to a computer rather than an iPhone to view the images and the thumbnails Horst sent are so small and pixelated I can not see any real detail. Horst, if you can send larger images that would be great. Thomas, thanks for the info, your comment about "10 years ago" there was some sort of documentation about the old CC molds is very interesting. What do you know about that?

I do know from the source, that when CC pulled out of Italy Herb Pocklington had already gone on to Hatteras, but CC "pulled out of Italy in the night" apparently leaving some unpaid bills, etc., and there is no telling what happened to the molds or if other boats were manufactured from them with another brand name, etc.

The boat Horst has is interesting because there are no other ORAV boats listed in the US Essential Guide except the 23' V-drive Lancer Premiere/Custon Super Sport of 1970, which was actually a rebadged 23 Commander after the Commander officially ran its course as a 1968 and 1969 model.

When I first got the message from Horst, I thought we had another 20 Corsair like the one reported from Croatia, but this boat is much different and it looks basically like a blend of 19' US Lancer with an Italian 23 Monte Carlo twist, with V-drive.

From what I can see, and admittedly, the photos are tough to see detail, it looks like Horst has a V-drive boat with an aft sun pad. If this is the case then it follows the Italian format Herb Pocklington initiated after seeing what Carlo Riva was doing in wood. Herb told me he asked his manufacturing and design guys to come up with a boat like that and they did, called the 23 Monte Carly, essentially another rebadged 23 Commander with V-drive and we have seen a few come up here on THE FORUM; one in Spain, one in France. Herb told me his staff was concerned about the liability of a boat of this nature with a sun pad and they added side safety rails, still a concern but Herb said "build it". Now we see another boat if similar style with a sun pad, and it is one of few that got the feature, as we only seem to have one model here in the US that had that feature and it was not all that popular as it was on the Riviera in the Mediterranean, and that is the 19' XK-19 of 1970 - 1975

Thomas you mentioned the boat Horst has is a version of that boat, which makes sense. Looking at the XK-19 data I was suprised to find yet another entry for a ORAV-19 model, which may actually be the same wetted hull configuration Horst has in Italian topsides, which is noted as a 1970 v-drive model, ORAV-19, did not have the siesta padded upholstery on the aft deck, and was powered by a CC 327QA motor.

Herb told me that US Chris Craft was controlled by Harry Coll, and European Chris Craft was controlled by him; the two companies were certainly related but they were (by international law) independent on operations, etc. Therefore Herb was able to produce hybrid boats using US molds but with different topsides and all of the US motors and such, but the manufacture and sales, tax reporting, etc., were all regulated by Italian and European law.

Since CC used the "shoebox construction technique" where the basic hull and motor remained the same, but a new topside casting could be added to make the boat either a XK-19 or a 19' Lancer, it allowed Europe to experiment with many different designs that were suited for their own market. The 20' Corsair for instance, never reached the US, but was designed specifically for Europe, using this same basic hull but with outdrive.

Regards,

Paul
Forum Moderator
Hello people,

it is unbelievable how you clean depends on this matter.
The letter of Paul, I find quite complicated, but I found a treat that was written in May 2009 at 4:38 pm by Paul, including the Prospectus. This boat actually corresponds exactly, as well as design and drive, to my boat at home.
As well as Paul describes the cause, it is a modular principle of Lancer / Commander with an idiosyncratic desing of the interior.

Thomas says that there is a tank vent, but I have found body filler sites on both sides while removing the old paint in almost the same level of about 8x10 cm bolting-holes have to which also point out that there were any signs attached.

I got much information from you on the preparation and equipment of the boat.
It would probably also interesting how many of them still exist.

Here are some pictures during the restoration.
The original images when I brought the boat from Italy, I am sending you tomorrow. I hope in a larger and better quality.

Yours sincerely,

Horst



























edit comments: images resized for forum format
Last edited by FEfinaticP on April 9th, 2012, 8:20 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Quote
Like
Share

Joined: March 8th, 2012, 7:33 pm

April 9th, 2012, 6:46 pm #10

Hi Horst, Paul,

Re the emblem: I can only tell what the pictures in the leaflets say, things like emblems may well have changed when the Capri went into production. You have a defintive advantage in having the real thing in front of you! I am wondering where the fueltank is located as the fillercap is not in the same location as on the 19' Lancer (in front of the hatch). From your pictures its quite clear that the deck shape is exactly the same as for the 19' Lancer, having owned one I do know only the location of the fittings differ. I like those VDO instrumentsd by the way, very nice!

Re the 23' Lancer Monte Carlo there's one from 1973 for sale here in Stockholm right now.

re Fiumincino: Was in touch with Lionel Massart around 10 years ago as he was restoring a 23' Lancer, we compared notes. He went from Basel to Fiumincino and managed to find the site, get into it and in someway got hold of a few documents, among them a step by step instruction on how to build a 31' Commander, pictures and notes had been made during the build of the very 1'st one in the States. He did see some of the moulds still lying around at that time, think he said one of them was for the hull of the 31' COmmander. I did meet him after his journey and had a look at the build instruction. He later went to Southafrica to work and sadly was killed in a car accident.



And, another odd Italian made Lancer a 25 cabin cruiser from 1971, also for sale right now in Stockholm:
Quote
Like
Share