Carter Carb Rebuilt Kits -- Where?

Carter Carb Rebuilt Kits -- Where?

Joined: August 25th, 2005, 5:45 am

February 12th, 2006, 5:23 am #1

Where is the best place (or at least a good place) to get rebuild kits for the Carter AFBs on our 427s? I think we need to rebuild ours.

Thanks! Curt in PDX.
---

1967 fiberglass 38' Chris Craft Commander Sportfisher with twin 427 CID 300 HP engines.
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Joined: November 8th, 2005, 10:54 pm

February 12th, 2006, 2:02 pm #2

you can go to the Carburetor Shop in MO http://www.thecarburetorshop.com they have the rebuild kit for the 4157 which I assume you have as that is the stock carb for a 427. Another place is your local NAPA parts store I ordered 2 from there for my Carter AVS carbs. The rebuild kits are the same as far as marine or auto carbs. The big difference is trying to find what your specs are for float settings etc. The spec sheet I got for my AVS carbs showed all mopar engines so I had to make a swag at getting it right (scientific wild ass guess). I haven't been able to find specs for my particular application yet. The prices are all over the place on the net I was quoted any where from $45 per kit to NAPA where I paid $26 a kit NO I could not find a difference between the two kits. I had the carb shop send the parts list in their kit and it matched the NAPA kit exactly. The best thing I can tell you is if you really want to know a lot about Carter Carbs is buy the book Carter Carburetors by David Emanuel it is an excellent refrence for the carbs and less than 20 bucks on the net.
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Paul
Paul

February 12th, 2006, 2:39 pm #3

Where is the best place (or at least a good place) to get rebuild kits for the Carter AFBs on our 427s? I think we need to rebuild ours.

Thanks! Curt in PDX.
---

1967 fiberglass 38' Chris Craft Commander Sportfisher with twin 427 CID 300 HP engines.
I have two boxes with carb parts here in the shop and I don't want to use those numbers because I'm not sure enough to post them for use. I would suspect NAPA would have the parts, my boxes here have CARQUEST and Federal Mogul on them.

Dan Cook (Dan Cook Chairs Craft Parts)would be a source, and I actually believe I got the Federal Mogul kits from him a few years ago.

Since we're talking "Carter" here are some good references.


Carter AFB Carb Specs (Photos) >>From the Master Index File<<
Including original spec info for the 625 cfm AFB that came on the CC marine 427
http://www.network54.com/Forum/message? ... 1125684478


Here is a source for individual AFB parts, metering rods, jets, etc.
http://www.thermoquads.com/page206.html


Carter AFB rebuilding tips (informative article on Carter rebuilding, which also will apply to our marine carbs)

If you're seriously considering rebuilding your old carburetor yourself (which I would recommend), you may want to pick up this book: Carter Carburetors by Dave Emanual, ISBN: 0931472113. Available at Barnes and Noble (http://shop.barnesandnoble.com/booksear ... 0931472113), among other places.

Granted, it's got a lot of info you won't need unless you want to tune your carburetor by grinding and replacing parts, but it does provide a good introduction to carburetor theory and operation, as well as the specifics of Carter models. On the other hand, you can get 90% of what you need from the shop manual. If you don't have the shop manual, BUY ONE. It's the best money you'll ever spend on your car. They pop up on eBay all the time for ~$15.

Before you start tuning your carburetor , there's a common misunderstanding that needs to be addressed: the "idle screws" on the front of the carburetor adjust the amount of fuel/air mixture that is pulled into the carburetor bore at idle.

There are 2 things to note here:
· They don't adjust the fuel/air ratio; that is predetermined by the size of the idle bleed vents and the idle tubes.

· They don't adjust the idle speed directly. This is merely a side effect of adjusting the amount of fuel/air mixture that is drawn into the carburetor.

Rebuilding tips:
Completely disassemble the carburetor and clean it before you add the new gaskets, valves, etc. in the rebuild kit. I mean take out everything that will come out (shafts, plates, valves, etc.) before you clean it. A lot of these older carburetors get gunked up in places like bleed vents. Merely replacing parts won't address this problem; you need to clean the carburetor. You can buy a gallon of carburetor cleaner complete with a parts basket at your local parts store (or Auto Zone, anyway) for about $12. Soak it overnight, and put it back together the next day. I generally scrape off all (or most) of the outside crud with a wire brush before I soak it, then blow everything out with high pressure air when it's done. Blast air through every hole you can find (needle valves, float valves, bleed vents, etc.). If you don't have a compressor, a bicycle pump will do (but your lungs won't). A little dirt in the wrong place (e.g. idle bleed vent) can cause big performance problems.

Don't polish the throttle and choke shafts aggressively to clean them. All you need to do is take off whatever varnish and/or carbon may be on them. If you take off too much metal, you'll have a sloppy fit, which will create a vacuum leak and screw up your air/fuel ratio. It's also possible that the shafts could be loose because the holes are worn, but that doesn't happen very often with the AFB because the throttle body casting is so thick.
Don't forget to clean the choke (including the piston). It frequently clogs up with carbon, so your choke sticks. If you want to go whole hog, add an electric choke. See here for more information.

Lastly, the rebuild kit will often have different specifications than the chassis manual for things like float drop. I always go with the manual.

Great article on Carter AFB information
http://carcraft.com/techarticles/1071/

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Paul
Paul

February 12th, 2006, 2:40 pm #4

you can go to the Carburetor Shop in MO http://www.thecarburetorshop.com they have the rebuild kit for the 4157 which I assume you have as that is the stock carb for a 427. Another place is your local NAPA parts store I ordered 2 from there for my Carter AVS carbs. The rebuild kits are the same as far as marine or auto carbs. The big difference is trying to find what your specs are for float settings etc. The spec sheet I got for my AVS carbs showed all mopar engines so I had to make a swag at getting it right (scientific wild ass guess). I haven't been able to find specs for my particular application yet. The prices are all over the place on the net I was quoted any where from $45 per kit to NAPA where I paid $26 a kit NO I could not find a difference between the two kits. I had the carb shop send the parts list in their kit and it matched the NAPA kit exactly. The best thing I can tell you is if you really want to know a lot about Carter Carbs is buy the book Carter Carburetors by David Emanuel it is an excellent refrence for the carbs and less than 20 bucks on the net.
Good info, thanks for posting.

P
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Joined: November 8th, 2005, 10:54 pm

February 12th, 2006, 2:47 pm #5

I have two boxes with carb parts here in the shop and I don't want to use those numbers because I'm not sure enough to post them for use. I would suspect NAPA would have the parts, my boxes here have CARQUEST and Federal Mogul on them.

Dan Cook (Dan Cook Chairs Craft Parts)would be a source, and I actually believe I got the Federal Mogul kits from him a few years ago.

Since we're talking "Carter" here are some good references.


Carter AFB Carb Specs (Photos) >>From the Master Index File<<
Including original spec info for the 625 cfm AFB that came on the CC marine 427
http://www.network54.com/Forum/message? ... 1125684478


Here is a source for individual AFB parts, metering rods, jets, etc.
http://www.thermoquads.com/page206.html


Carter AFB rebuilding tips (informative article on Carter rebuilding, which also will apply to our marine carbs)

If you're seriously considering rebuilding your old carburetor yourself (which I would recommend), you may want to pick up this book: Carter Carburetors by Dave Emanual, ISBN: 0931472113. Available at Barnes and Noble (http://shop.barnesandnoble.com/booksear ... 0931472113), among other places.

Granted, it's got a lot of info you won't need unless you want to tune your carburetor by grinding and replacing parts, but it does provide a good introduction to carburetor theory and operation, as well as the specifics of Carter models. On the other hand, you can get 90% of what you need from the shop manual. If you don't have the shop manual, BUY ONE. It's the best money you'll ever spend on your car. They pop up on eBay all the time for ~$15.

Before you start tuning your carburetor , there's a common misunderstanding that needs to be addressed: the "idle screws" on the front of the carburetor adjust the amount of fuel/air mixture that is pulled into the carburetor bore at idle.

There are 2 things to note here:
· They don't adjust the fuel/air ratio; that is predetermined by the size of the idle bleed vents and the idle tubes.

· They don't adjust the idle speed directly. This is merely a side effect of adjusting the amount of fuel/air mixture that is drawn into the carburetor.

Rebuilding tips:
Completely disassemble the carburetor and clean it before you add the new gaskets, valves, etc. in the rebuild kit. I mean take out everything that will come out (shafts, plates, valves, etc.) before you clean it. A lot of these older carburetors get gunked up in places like bleed vents. Merely replacing parts won't address this problem; you need to clean the carburetor. You can buy a gallon of carburetor cleaner complete with a parts basket at your local parts store (or Auto Zone, anyway) for about $12. Soak it overnight, and put it back together the next day. I generally scrape off all (or most) of the outside crud with a wire brush before I soak it, then blow everything out with high pressure air when it's done. Blast air through every hole you can find (needle valves, float valves, bleed vents, etc.). If you don't have a compressor, a bicycle pump will do (but your lungs won't). A little dirt in the wrong place (e.g. idle bleed vent) can cause big performance problems.

Don't polish the throttle and choke shafts aggressively to clean them. All you need to do is take off whatever varnish and/or carbon may be on them. If you take off too much metal, you'll have a sloppy fit, which will create a vacuum leak and screw up your air/fuel ratio. It's also possible that the shafts could be loose because the holes are worn, but that doesn't happen very often with the AFB because the throttle body casting is so thick.
Don't forget to clean the choke (including the piston). It frequently clogs up with carbon, so your choke sticks. If you want to go whole hog, add an electric choke. See here for more information.

Lastly, the rebuild kit will often have different specifications than the chassis manual for things like float drop. I always go with the manual.

Great article on Carter AFB information
http://carcraft.com/techarticles/1071/
That is the exact book I have Paul and if you have ever seen it it has more detail and pictures than you can imagine. Went to look at a 35 Commander last weekend for a friend and managed to talk Tim Toth into going along he read that book the whole way to Detroit and back. When Tim says that a book is great I figure it is a good source. He also talked about borrowing it in the near future. And for Tim yes I will lend it to him as many times as he has come to my rescue. I know he will be down in the bilge with me putting on heads in the spring so how can I refuse? Tim doesn't miss a chance to tear into a motor if he can help it.
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Tom Slayton
Tom Slayton

February 12th, 2006, 9:56 pm #6

I have two boxes with carb parts here in the shop and I don't want to use those numbers because I'm not sure enough to post them for use. I would suspect NAPA would have the parts, my boxes here have CARQUEST and Federal Mogul on them.

Dan Cook (Dan Cook Chairs Craft Parts)would be a source, and I actually believe I got the Federal Mogul kits from him a few years ago.

Since we're talking "Carter" here are some good references.


Carter AFB Carb Specs (Photos) >>From the Master Index File<<
Including original spec info for the 625 cfm AFB that came on the CC marine 427
http://www.network54.com/Forum/message? ... 1125684478


Here is a source for individual AFB parts, metering rods, jets, etc.
http://www.thermoquads.com/page206.html


Carter AFB rebuilding tips (informative article on Carter rebuilding, which also will apply to our marine carbs)

If you're seriously considering rebuilding your old carburetor yourself (which I would recommend), you may want to pick up this book: Carter Carburetors by Dave Emanual, ISBN: 0931472113. Available at Barnes and Noble (http://shop.barnesandnoble.com/booksear ... 0931472113), among other places.

Granted, it's got a lot of info you won't need unless you want to tune your carburetor by grinding and replacing parts, but it does provide a good introduction to carburetor theory and operation, as well as the specifics of Carter models. On the other hand, you can get 90% of what you need from the shop manual. If you don't have the shop manual, BUY ONE. It's the best money you'll ever spend on your car. They pop up on eBay all the time for ~$15.

Before you start tuning your carburetor , there's a common misunderstanding that needs to be addressed: the "idle screws" on the front of the carburetor adjust the amount of fuel/air mixture that is pulled into the carburetor bore at idle.

There are 2 things to note here:
· They don't adjust the fuel/air ratio; that is predetermined by the size of the idle bleed vents and the idle tubes.

· They don't adjust the idle speed directly. This is merely a side effect of adjusting the amount of fuel/air mixture that is drawn into the carburetor.

Rebuilding tips:
Completely disassemble the carburetor and clean it before you add the new gaskets, valves, etc. in the rebuild kit. I mean take out everything that will come out (shafts, plates, valves, etc.) before you clean it. A lot of these older carburetors get gunked up in places like bleed vents. Merely replacing parts won't address this problem; you need to clean the carburetor. You can buy a gallon of carburetor cleaner complete with a parts basket at your local parts store (or Auto Zone, anyway) for about $12. Soak it overnight, and put it back together the next day. I generally scrape off all (or most) of the outside crud with a wire brush before I soak it, then blow everything out with high pressure air when it's done. Blast air through every hole you can find (needle valves, float valves, bleed vents, etc.). If you don't have a compressor, a bicycle pump will do (but your lungs won't). A little dirt in the wrong place (e.g. idle bleed vent) can cause big performance problems.

Don't polish the throttle and choke shafts aggressively to clean them. All you need to do is take off whatever varnish and/or carbon may be on them. If you take off too much metal, you'll have a sloppy fit, which will create a vacuum leak and screw up your air/fuel ratio. It's also possible that the shafts could be loose because the holes are worn, but that doesn't happen very often with the AFB because the throttle body casting is so thick.
Don't forget to clean the choke (including the piston). It frequently clogs up with carbon, so your choke sticks. If you want to go whole hog, add an electric choke. See here for more information.

Lastly, the rebuild kit will often have different specifications than the chassis manual for things like float drop. I always go with the manual.

Great article on Carter AFB information
http://carcraft.com/techarticles/1071/
http://www.marineparts.com/partspages/Carbs/carb4.htm

Tom
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Joined: August 25th, 2005, 5:45 am

February 15th, 2006, 4:26 am #7

Where is the best place (or at least a good place) to get rebuild kits for the Carter AFBs on our 427s? I think we need to rebuild ours.

Thanks! Curt in PDX.
---

1967 fiberglass 38' Chris Craft Commander Sportfisher with twin 427 CID 300 HP engines.
Great info. I am pretty familiar with the Carter AFBs, and rebuilt a number of them back in the 60's. Fairly straight-forward carbs, and not bad to work on.

With the engines in our CC Commanders being on such an angle, I wonder about setting the float level and drop. Of course the level needs to be set to prevent flooding raw gas into the carb. But so far I have not actually found specs for the dimentions to set the floats for when mounted on an angle in a boat. Anyone have definitive data, or if not then data from what worked for you?

We are experiencing some starving of the engines at about 3000 rpm (all of a sudden the RPM drops off sharply). We are struggling to find the cause.

First, as much work as we have done to get the junk out of the old fuel tanks and fuel, I know there is still a lot of stuff in there. We pumped out much of the old fuel and diluted what was left with lots of new gasoline, but it is really hard to get everything out of the old tanks without cutting an access hole in the top to physically get inside.

The possible problems (I think) are a clogged intake screen inside the fuel tank (if there is such a screen), clogged fuel filter (this boat has "diesel" type filters -- very large capacity, but fine porosity), and inadequate fuel pumps.

About the filters -- when we bought the boat it had 1-micron filters installed. Totally wrong for gas engines! We changed to 30 micron, which is the most porus available for this housing, but is probably still way too fine. We have changed them out a couple of times, and they seem OK but who knows? We may have to buy a different filter housing which is designed for more porus gas filters.

Anyway, to conclude this rambling posting, I would like to get the carbs rebuilt and set up properly to at least eliminate that element to our "starving" problem.

Best wishes, Curt...
-----

1967 fiberglass 38' Chris Craft Commander Sportfisher with twin 427 CID 300 HP engines.
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Joined: November 8th, 2005, 10:54 pm

February 15th, 2006, 5:26 am #8

Don't know what to tell you as the filers in my boat are original and easy to find maybe go back to stock? they weren't the best but they do the job in my opinion.But I knoiw they are no where near 30 micron filters. I buy them at autozone for less than 5 bucks each. I guess because I only buy gas at certain places my new place is a valvtech dealer. I don't worry about gas I can buy it and run for at least a couple fo weeks on it. Or if there is a trip involved I buy it and then leave not too many places on the west end of Erie where you run oout of gas on a trip out and back.
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Paul
Paul

February 15th, 2006, 5:48 am #9

Hi Curt,

One filter is the "big beer can" in line between the tank and the motor. The other is the "pencil screen filter" mounted at the front of the motor.

Based on what would normally be encountered from a gas tank (which is not a metal milling or sanding operation) I would think the stock GROCO or equiv filter medium would be fine. Any smaller micron capability would seem to just clog up quickly.

In addition, I'd put a weighted tube into the bottom of your tank, and draw out some fuel and take a look. Most of the junk is down at the bottom, and you may want to just pre-empt the clogging by drawing out as much of that junk as possible.

All the best,

Paul
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Joined: August 25th, 2005, 5:45 am

February 17th, 2006, 3:27 am #10

Paul said: "In addition, I'd put a weighted tube into the bottom of your tank, and draw out some fuel and take a look. Most of the junk is down at the bottom, and you may want to just pre-empt the clogging by drawing out as much of that junk as possible."

Hi Paul, that is exactly what we did last summer. We bought the boat and it had perhaps 100 gallons of fuel aboard. We didn't know at first that some of that gas was probably 20 years old! We did not like the smell of it however, so we pumped about 50 gallons of it out and disposed of it, and added about 80 gallons of new fuel (carried to the boat in 5 gallon gas cans!). It looked to us like we got most of the varnish-balls out of the tank bottoms while we were pumping out old-fuel, but later we found that there is still a lot of clumping-looking junk floating around in the bottom of the tanks.

While our filters are fine porosity (30 micron), they are huge Racon filters with about 1 quart size housings. I'm sure the previous owner added them when he found he was getting the smaller stock filter clogged during his annual "engine running" at the dock.

Yesterday we got a break in the weather, and took the boat for a cruise. After a half hour of crusing the S/B engine quit, and although it would restart and run at higher RPMs, we couldn't keep it running at low RPMs after that. It acted like a carburation problem, and/or a major vacuum leak. We didn't have time to diagnose the problem. I will order carb rebuild kits, and if that doesn't work out I may order Edelbrock marine replacement carbs (about $350 each). I think I need to eliminate the possible fuel-system problems one part at a time. As you-all may know, Edelbrock makes the current version of the old Carter AFB carbs.

Anyway, we are getting pretty good at bringing the boat back on one engine -- lots of practice in the last 6 months!


[Me (left) and co-owner Jim after getting back to dock on 1 engine yesterday]

Best wishes, Curt....
----



1967 fiberglass 38' Chris Craft Commander Sportfisher with twin 427 CID 300 HP engines.
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