The NRA is full of crap

Joined: November 13th, 2010, 12:37 pm

April 2nd, 2018, 11:49 pm #121

Fortune Cookie wrote:
tyu12 wrote:
Island Annie wrote:
tyu12 wrote: You know, after 9-11 we are willing to be x-rayed and take off our shoes to board a plane.  We are willing to do that, but not give up any gun rights.  What a country.

they are trying to make the schools safer with clear backpacks but students are protesting that. So trying to make things safer is not always easy and someone is always going to complain.
The clear backpack thing is the barn door after the horse. You can't fit an AR-15 (the preferred choice of mass shooters everywhere!) in one of those anyway, just as armed guards or teachers will not stop the entry of yet another angry white male with a control fetish. Background checks, waiting periods, model restrictions, and ammo limits are all proven prevention steps that the NRA fights.

An actual skinhead is typically pro-violence and pro-white supremacy. People don't like what Emma Gonzalez is saying so they belittle her appearance, as if they had the right to some say in it. The idea that she bullied the shooter is from the same people saying David Hogg wasn't in school that day (they had to retract that statement). Shooters are far more likely to have engaged in prior violence and control behavior. This particular shooter was part of a neo-Nazi group, so there's supreme irony in using the term on Emma because she doesn't fit your feminine ideal.
Yes, you can fit an AR-15 into a backpack banning AR-15 is a barn door after the hours what are the chances of another shooter going to that school I would say very small unless there were more who were bullied like the Cruz kid.
   You believe that Cruz was part of a neo-nazi group but you do not believe that she could have bullied the kid.
what do you call kids with haircuts like that? 
I call this particular one "Emma." 

What do you call her? 
tyu the moral and ethical coward won't answer this. 

I won't stop asking. 
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Joined: January 9th, 2008, 8:26 pm

April 3rd, 2018, 12:40 am #122

Fortune Cookie wrote:
Fortune Cookie wrote:
tyu12 wrote:
Island Annie wrote:
tyu12 wrote: You know, after 9-11 we are willing to be x-rayed and take off our shoes to board a plane.  We are willing to do that, but not give up any gun rights.  What a country.

they are trying to make the schools safer with clear backpacks but students are protesting that. So trying to make things safer is not always easy and someone is always going to complain.
The clear backpack thing is the barn door after the horse. You can't fit an AR-15 (the preferred choice of mass shooters everywhere!) in one of those anyway, just as armed guards or teachers will not stop the entry of yet another angry white male with a control fetish. Background checks, waiting periods, model restrictions, and ammo limits are all proven prevention steps that the NRA fights.

An actual skinhead is typically pro-violence and pro-white supremacy. People don't like what Emma Gonzalez is saying so they belittle her appearance, as if they had the right to some say in it. The idea that she bullied the shooter is from the same people saying David Hogg wasn't in school that day (they had to retract that statement). Shooters are far more likely to have engaged in prior violence and control behavior. This particular shooter was part of a neo-Nazi group, so there's supreme irony in using the term on Emma because she doesn't fit your feminine ideal.
Yes, you can fit an AR-15 into a backpack banning AR-15 is a barn door after the hours what are the chances of another shooter going to that school I would say very small unless there were more who were bullied like the Cruz kid.
   You believe that Cruz was part of a neo-nazi group but you do not believe that she could have bullied the kid.
what do you call kids with haircuts like that? 
I call this particular one "Emma." 

What do you call her? 
tyu the moral and ethical coward won't answer this. 

I won't stop asking. 
I found out her name is Emma
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Joined: November 13th, 2010, 12:37 pm

April 3rd, 2018, 12:59 am #123

tyu12 wrote:
Fortune Cookie wrote:
Fortune Cookie wrote:
tyu12 wrote:
Island Annie wrote:

The clear backpack thing is the barn door after the horse. You can't fit an AR-15 (the preferred choice of mass shooters everywhere!) in one of those anyway, just as armed guards or teachers will not stop the entry of yet another angry white male with a control fetish. Background checks, waiting periods, model restrictions, and ammo limits are all proven prevention steps that the NRA fights.

An actual skinhead is typically pro-violence and pro-white supremacy. People don't like what Emma Gonzalez is saying so they belittle her appearance, as if they had the right to some say in it. The idea that she bullied the shooter is from the same people saying David Hogg wasn't in school that day (they had to retract that statement). Shooters are far more likely to have engaged in prior violence and control behavior. This particular shooter was part of a neo-Nazi group, so there's supreme irony in using the term on Emma because she doesn't fit your feminine ideal.
Yes, you can fit an AR-15 into a backpack banning AR-15 is a barn door after the hours what are the chances of another shooter going to that school I would say very small unless there were more who were bullied like the Cruz kid.
   You believe that Cruz was part of a neo-nazi group but you do not believe that she could have bullied the kid.
what do you call kids with haircuts like that? 
I call this particular one "Emma." 

What do you call her? 
tyu the moral and ethical coward won't answer this. 

I won't stop asking. 
I found out her name is Emma
You found that out, yes. But you've made it clear that this not what you call someone "with [a] haircuts like that."

What do YOU call kids with haircuts like that? 

Please answer honestly, since YOU are the one who first posed the question. 
Last edited by Fortune Cookie on April 3rd, 2018, 8:36 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Joined: January 2nd, 2008, 1:30 am

April 3rd, 2018, 7:32 am #124

tyu12 wrote: How many people here would be willing to change the first amendment to arrest or fine people who burn the flag or stomp on it.
We don't have to change amendment to have legal regulation around them.  While burning the flag is protected by the first amendment as political speech, inciting violence and hate speech is not protected. And the right to assemble protected by the first amendment is also regulated.  There are exceptions for the fourth amendment on search and seizure. And gun regulation can be constitutionally configured.   So, yes, the question is do we want to have more legal regulation of the second amendment? For my part the answer is yes, yes, yes.

And tyu12, your denigration of the Parkland students is inexcusable as well weakening your position.  If you can post here, you have the time and the Internet access to research the truth before posting disgusting rumors and untruths.  As I posted before, I don't think that they are saints or that they are automatically right due to their experience, but they deserve to be treated respectfully.  You call them dirty names and and question their motivation and integrity, while showing a total lack of understanding or humanity toward their plight.  Shame, shame, shame on you.
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Joined: March 30th, 2007, 12:27 am

April 3rd, 2018, 9:47 am #125

In my opinion the majority of politicians that vote pro NRA or fail to act against the NRA are just as bad as the NRA and just as culpable. Their votes have been bought by money and influence. Lobbyists are the ruin of the democratic process and many many politicians  simply cross the street from Congress to become bribery experts for vested interests. It's all about the money.
You make a living by what you get. You make a life by what you give..
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Joined: April 27th, 2011, 4:12 pm

April 3rd, 2018, 10:54 am #126

sugarmagnolia wrote:
tyu12 wrote: How many people here would be willing to change the first amendment to arrest or fine people who burn the flag or stomp on it.
We don't have to change amendment to have legal regulation around them.  While burning the flag is protected by the first amendment as political speech, inciting violence and hate speech is not protected. And the right to assemble protected by the first amendment is also regulated.  There are exceptions for the fourth amendment on search and seizure. And gun regulation can be constitutionally configured.   So, yes, the question is do we want to have more legal regulation of the second amendment? For my part the answer is yes, yes, yes.

And tyu12, your denigration of the Parkland students is inexcusable as well weakening your position.  If you can post here, you have the time and the Internet access to research the truth before posting disgusting rumors and untruths.  As I posted before, I don't think that they are saints or that they are automatically right due to their experience, but they deserve to be treated respectfully.  You call them dirty names and and question their motivation and integrity, while showing a total lack of understanding or humanity toward their plight.  Shame, shame, shame on you.
I'm pretty sure hate speech is protected under the 1st Amendment unless it leads to an imminent threat of violence, such as telling a group of people to be violent towards another. I'm reading a lot of conflicting information online right now and it seems like a complex issue.

"Hate speech in the United States is comparatively unregulated when compared to that of most other liberal democracies".

Once we start messing with the 2nd Amendment, gun control advocates won't stop until it is completely gutted and they will STILL claim they aren't trying to repeal it. Also, banning AR-15's, which it seems most want, will not stop mass shootings. Do you think if Cruz went to the store and they were sold out of AR's, he would have just cancelled his plans? Technically, most gun crimes in this country are committed with handguns.

It baffles me that little freak Cruz fell through the cracks and was allowed to purchase a gun. With his history of mental health issues, he should have instantly failed a background check. it's things like this we need to fix, not banning a certain type of gun.
Last edited by gator on April 3rd, 2018, 10:59 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Joined: September 27th, 2005, 12:41 am

April 3rd, 2018, 10:57 am #127

Yes, you can fit an AR-15 into a backpack banning AR-15 is a barn door after the hours what are the chances of another shooter going to that school I would say very small unless there were more who were bullied like the Cruz kid.
  
Frankly, if that particular barn door (banning AR-15s) had been closed after Sandy Hook, as it should have been, there might not have been a Parkland.
"...the problem with pounding a square peg into a round hole is not that the hammering is hard work. It's that you're destroying the peg." ."

-Paul Collins


    
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Joined: April 27th, 2011, 4:12 pm

April 3rd, 2018, 11:03 am #128

Island Annie wrote:
Yes, you can fit an AR-15 into a backpack banning AR-15 is a barn door after the hours what are the chances of another shooter going to that school I would say very small unless there were more who were bullied like the Cruz kid.
  
Frankly, if the barn door (banning AR-15s) had been closed after Sandy Hook, as it should have been, there might not have been a Parkland.
If AR's were banned circa Sandy Hook, wouldn't he have just taken one of his moms pistols and committed the atrocity that way? Again, banning a type of gun isn't going to stop someone intent on doing evil. The fact that his mother had any gun in the house, fully knowing her son was touched in the head, sickens me.
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Joined: November 13th, 2010, 12:37 pm

April 3rd, 2018, 11:12 am #129

gator wrote:
Island Annie wrote:
Yes, you can fit an AR-15 into a backpack banning AR-15 is a barn door after the hours what are the chances of another shooter going to that school I would say very small unless there were more who were bullied like the Cruz kid.
  
Frankly, if the barn door (banning AR-15s) had been closed after Sandy Hook, as it should have been, there might not have been a Parkland.
If AR's were banned circa Sandy Hook, wouldn't he have just taken one of his moms pistols and committed the atrocity that way? Again, banning a type of gun isn't going to stop someone intent on doing evil. The fact that his mother had any gun in the house, fully knowing her son was touched in the head, sickens me.
You didn't read the articles I posted that compared the wounds caused by a typical pistol round and those caused by the bullets loose by an AR-15, did you? 

You should scroll back and read those. 
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Joined: April 27th, 2011, 4:12 pm

April 3rd, 2018, 11:29 am #130

I'm aware that the high velocity of the .223 and 5.56 round causes an abnormal amount of damage to the human body, but a pistol in the hands of a madman can cause just as much carnage. Look at Virginia Tech, the worst school shooting in US history and it was carried out with a 9mm Pistol.
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Joined: September 1st, 2012, 8:06 am

April 3rd, 2018, 12:00 pm #131

gator wrote: Once we start messing with the 2nd Amendment, gun control advocates won't stop until it is completely gutted and they will STILL claim they aren't trying to repeal it.
Sadly, you are falling for the "slippery slope" argument. I am surprised, given your normally rational take on all things.
That will simply not happen - ignore the extreme outliers, and pay attention to the vast majority of reasonable Americans in the middle.
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Joined: September 27th, 2005, 12:41 am

April 3rd, 2018, 12:03 pm #132

gator wrote:
Island Annie wrote:
Yes, you can fit an AR-15 into a backpack banning AR-15 is a barn door after the hours what are the chances of another shooter going to that school I would say very small unless there were more who were bullied like the Cruz kid.
  
Frankly, if the barn door (banning AR-15s) had been closed after Sandy Hook, as it should have been, there might not have been a Parkland.
Wouldn't he have just taken one of his moms pistols and committed the atrocity that way? Again, banning a type of gun isn't going to stop someone intent on doing evil. The fact that his mother had any gun in the house, fully knowing her son was touched in the head, sickens me.
Yes, there is always that possibility, but the point of an AR-15 ban, or ammo/mag limits is to reduce the scale of the carnage.  When there was an assault weapons ban, that is indeed what happened, fatalities went down.  It would be a lot easier to incapacitate a handgun shooter than a guy with a weapon that fires multiple rounds per X# of seconds. Same thing if they have to stop and reload more frequently.
"...the problem with pounding a square peg into a round hole is not that the hammering is hard work. It's that you're destroying the peg." ."

-Paul Collins


    
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Joined: January 2nd, 2008, 1:30 am

April 3rd, 2018, 12:22 pm #133

And again, there is no one perfect solution.  We must chip at this issue from all sides --- AR-15 ban, large magazine ban, better reporting and better adherence to the current regulations, better mental health outreach.  And still we will have shootings --- but hopefully, less frequently with less loss of life.  Because that is what the end game is ----- saving lives.  Isn't that worth it? Or are we so depraved as a society that we are unwilling to act unless we have guarantees, unwilling to spend the money unless it benefits us personally, unwilling to deny ourselves some small part of our freedom because of our greed and need to have it all, unwilling to change because of our fears --- unwilling to save whatever lives we can.
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Joined: April 27th, 2011, 4:12 pm

April 3rd, 2018, 12:54 pm #134

battlingignorance wrote:
gator wrote: Once we start messing with the 2nd Amendment, gun control advocates won't stop until it is completely gutted and they will STILL claim they aren't trying to repeal it.
Sadly, you are falling for the "slippery slope" argument. I am surprised, given your normally rational take on all things.
That will simply not happen - ignore the extreme outliers, and pay attention to the vast majority of reasonable Americans in the middle.
I hope I am wrong. Its just that I have a feeling a lot of people aren't willing to admit that they really do want most types of firearms banned. I've heard people flip flop on this issue so many times, depending on who they are talking too. Same goes for Politicians. 

Just out of curiosity, is there anyone here who thinks 2A should be repealed?
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Joined: January 2nd, 2008, 1:30 am

April 3rd, 2018, 1:05 pm #135

I don't.  I think that military-like weaponry should not be in the hands of civilians.  I think that gun ownership should require a license process, including education about safe gun ownership.  I think that there should be severe penalties for unsafe gun ownership (not properly storing guns, etc). I feel uneasy about concealed carry gun laws, but I am not sure about what to do about it. But I can see that gun ownership is both a pleasure and a necessity for many people, and that gun ownership is deeply embedded in the American culture.
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Joined: November 13th, 2010, 12:37 pm

April 3rd, 2018, 1:32 pm #136

gator wrote: I'm aware that the high velocity of the .223 and 5.56 round causes an abnormal amount of damage to the human body, but a pistol in the hands of a madman can cause just as much carnage
No, it can't. 
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April 3rd, 2018, 1:55 pm #137

gator wrote:I hope I am wrong. Its just that I have a feeling a lot of people aren't willing to admit that they really do want most types of firearms banned. I've heard people flip flop on this issue so many times, depending on who they are talking too. Same goes for Politicians. 

Just out of curiosity, is there anyone here who thinks 2A should be repealed?
I think you might be buying into what the NRA is selling. Don't do that.

They wanted you to believe that Obama (or Hillary) was going to take away your guns. That's on no one's agenda that I know of.

They want you to believe that registration, background checks, training laws, "fingerprint grips" (not sure of the actual term) and other safety measures are a form of infringement.

They want you to completely ignore the "well-regulated militia" phrase in 2A.

I agree with Sugarmagnolia that military-style weapons should not be available to the general public. I think the entry to gun ownership should be more rigorous than owning a car. I think parents should be prosecuted when their child shoots someone with an unsecured gun, even if it is another family member. God knows we arrest mothers for leaving their kids in the car or letting them go to the park by themselves, but storing your gun in a side table drawer, where any toddler can grab it, seems to be totally okay.

I want the assholes who walk around in public with heavy weaponry, stalking playgrounds, and Target stores and Starbucks, just because they can, to be appropriately considered a threat and removed.

I know plenty of hunters who are reasonable people and who handle and store their weapons safely. It's not a burden. Most NRA baseline membership supports background checks. Their leadership does not.
"...the problem with pounding a square peg into a round hole is not that the hammering is hard work. It's that you're destroying the peg." ."

-Paul Collins


    
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Joined: November 13th, 2010, 12:37 pm

April 3rd, 2018, 5:13 pm #138

I grew up with long guns in the house. For all I know, my father had handguns, too, but if he did I never saw them. 

I think my father would have considered it very strange if he saw someone who felt he needed to carry an AR-15 to go grocery shopping. I'm pretty sure he never would have considered doing so himself. He just had the guns and that was that. 

I have shot all kinds of guns -- my father's rifles and shotguns and the handguns and shotguns of friends. They're kind of fun, but I have no great interest in them. I found shooting skeet a the most fun of all.  Maybe if I thought guns were the most fun I'd ever had (or of they made me feel more manly), I might feel differently, but I would hope I wouldn't think my right to have fun with guns (or to enhance my manhood) would trump the rest of society's right to actually live. 

This fetishization of firepower is a very strange thing. I suspect REAL men don't need to walk around pretending to be commandos. 

I hope the time has finally come when we would collectively acknowledge that we have a pretty bad problem and that sensible restrictions on gun ownership won't bring down all of western civilization. 
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Joined: February 19th, 2010, 9:12 pm

April 3rd, 2018, 6:02 pm #139

Someone asked whether anyone would want to get rid of the second amendment. I personally have no use for guns but I have a number of friends who enjoy shooting clay pigeons and such. Some of them served our country.  I want them to be able to enjoy that and I know they are safe and responsible.

No one needs the kinds of guns that are killing en masse.  We can make other legislative changes such as the ones I've mentioned here several times as a start. The person who told me those pieces of legislation are important is Greg Gibson who many of you know as the Gloucester parent of a young man who was shot and killed at college 25 years ago.  He has worked very hard ever since to help get legislation passed that would help stop this and there is no one whose opinion I respect more on this.  

No one I know is talking about getting rid of the second amendment...though one of my conservative sparring partners once said he'd think about getting rid of the 19th!  (He was joking...I hope.)  I think we need to start on the points we all agree on and make them law. And soon.
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Joined: December 22nd, 2007, 3:35 am

April 3rd, 2018, 7:02 pm #140

No one is talking about getting rid of the second amendment because it would be incredibly difficult if not impossible to get a repeal ratified. It would take only 13 states to block it, and I can easily think of 20 states that would never go for a repeal.
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