Real or fake

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Real or fake

Mike Dyer
Mike Dyer

February 2nd, 2008, 1:59 am #1

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Bill Miller
Bill Miller

February 2nd, 2008, 2:27 am #2

...it's the common repro variety.

Bill.
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Michael Reintjes
Michael Reintjes

February 2nd, 2008, 4:46 am #3

...I,m with Bill...We used to see these by the bagfull back in the 80's for a quid each...Beware.
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Michael Reintjes
Michael Reintjes

February 3rd, 2008, 4:20 pm #4

From ans article by Tony Reintjes a few years back....detailed photos of the Original and the Reproduction examples...good reference.
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Clifford S. Weirmeir
Clifford S. Weirmeir

February 3rd, 2008, 4:54 pm #5

This is a great photo explaining the differences side by side. This badge is one I would like for my collection, however it is so widely faked I have trouble sometimes telling the differences. I have always relied on two separate images, one good, one fake, along with a written explanation of the differences.

Personally I think this is one of the best posts I have ever seen on tis badge. My I please post this image on other forums where I am a member? Of course I will give credit to the Canuck site, and a link to this thread.
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Micahel Reintjes
Micahel Reintjes

February 3rd, 2008, 5:02 pm #6

...people literally ask me several times about this at every show I go too and I think this is the best and most obvious explanation I could think of....Its tough to describe and a photo as they say is worth a thousand words. M.
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Michael Reintjes
Michael Reintjes

February 3rd, 2008, 5:03 pm #7

I have the entire article as well but am not sure if it would be acceptable to post it in its entirety on this forum.
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Ken Joyce
Ken Joyce

February 3rd, 2008, 6:16 pm #8

I think Bill and I have discussed this badge before and it brings up some interesting questions. Who made it and when? If someone is going to reproduce a cap badge, why create a completely new die? Would you not simply just get an impression from an original?

I know that the 1CPB cap badges were restruck after the war and stamped examples were made. Some collectors in the UK state that it was actually the companies that made them during the war that restruck them for collectors etc. after the war. I could find no proof of this. However all of these badges are made using a wartime die or an exact copy of one.

In this case, someone went through the trouble to have a completely different die made. Rather expensive prospect to sell simple reproductions.

It is not impossible that some group had a new die made however I wonder if these reproductions are actually based on an obscure wartime die? Could the die have been made just around the period the Regiment was disbanded and not widely used, or used at all? The original badges were a small contract to Gaunt and were not ordered via Ordnance but via unit funds hence they were made in the UK. What would have prevented another company from making their own die?

Anyway, it would be nice to know who had this die made to produce these badges.

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Michael Reintjes
Michael Reintjes

February 3rd, 2008, 7:05 pm #9

...Yes I,ve heard these theories before and there are some who badly want these repro second types to be real.I can only tell you that I have both the officers and em's badges both from Veteran sources and they are the type 1 shown on the left.I,ve also had and seen many other examples from vets and all are the type 1 on the left.I have examined other peoples examples with provenance and some accompanied by battledress or service dress and all are the type 1 on the left.There are also some examples on trench art(Elgin museum comes to mind ) and they are all type 1 badges.I have yet to see any of the circular o badges that have have any provenance at all.I can also tell you that the type 2 badges are very common and were availbale by the bag full back in the 80's when I worked in the militaria business and were 1 pound sterling each.Others will tell you that they showed up sometime in the 60's at prices as low as 20P each.
I have no proof as to who made these 2nd type badges at all so I offer no speculation as to the maker.I am ,however, satified that these badges were never worn by this regiment based on 30 years of both personal and anecdotal evidence as well as the common availability of these 2nd type badges.I know that some have theories as to the metal makeup and content of the type 2 badges but these theories have had no factual basis at all and until such is shown,these theories must be considered as speculative at best.
The type 1 badge on the left is the badge worn by this unit during the war and has been found in the possession of vets manys times.I would suggest that if collectors are interested in having an original 1CACR cap badge as worn in wartime they would seek out and obtain types 1 on the left.I leave it to you guys to believe what you want about the one on the right.
Cheesr,Mike.
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Ken Joyce
Ken Joyce

February 3rd, 2008, 7:36 pm #10

Mike, I have no interest in these badges as far as an investment goes. I dont collect 1CACR items nor do I own anything from this unit. My observations are based on suspicious evidence. I located quite a bit of info on these badges at the LAC. What veterans have in their posession is only part of the evidence. I know of several badge contracts submitted during the war where dies were made but the contract was not filled. Also, if you read my post, I was not implying at all that the Type 2 badges are wartime issue. What I stated was...

1. It is not impossible that the original "Die" for the type 2 was wartime made, not the actual badges.

Therefore either way, it would be nice to know who had the type 2 die made, whether wartime or postwar.

The die made in the UK for the 1CPB officers badge was only used to make a very small number of badges. What would have prevented another manufacturer of officers badges - for example - making their own die before the unit disbanded? There may only be a handful of originals in existance - if any. This is speculation but speculation based on things that actually happened quite commonly during the war.

It is also curious that they come from the UK with some being made in the UK fashion ie with half rounded copper alloy lugs. Again, speculation, however it does suggest that the source of the die was a UK manufacturer.

I think it is important to let people know such things should they wish to pursue the research further. These could be entirely reproduction badges made by someone after the war. Or they may have a wartime link. What is wrong with bringing that forward?

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