Questions about Roger Roy collection

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Questions about Roger Roy collection

Joined: December 22nd, 2008, 5:22 am

June 18th, 2009, 2:09 am #1

Roger you should be very proud of you uniform collection.
In the photo under the hats I see an Artillery SGT tunic which got me puzzle:

1- It seem that he is wearing his 3 strippes and a gun over it like it should be, but by the photo is not to clear it seem that the gun is firing in the back, I am sure that no Gunner would wear his rank this way.

2- He is also wearing his white lanyard on the left side I dont think this is right side.

Please let me know if I am mistaking?

CWO Gilles Aubé
UBIQUE

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Joined: March 15th, 2006, 3:45 pm

June 18th, 2009, 2:44 am #2

Interesting question.
Yet I do not think they made left and right gun patches.

Both gun badges are the same on this tunic.

In all the photos I've seen they all look like this. Most Artillery men seem to show the right arm
in photos most likely because it look "correct"


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Joined: March 15th, 2006, 3:45 pm

June 18th, 2009, 2:55 am #3

..the lanyards I've seen worn in CEF photo are worn on the left, in post war 1930's photos I have they seem to be worn on the right. If I may direct you to Clive Laws book..Page 18 of KHAKI, you can clearly see the Sgt wearing the lanyard on the left.

Regardless it is important to know that I have added NOTHING to these tunics except a few missing CANADA titles or collar badge. All the lanyards or formation patches etc..are as I got them.
None of these tunics have been messed with. I am a stern and picky collector. Most of the tunics have come out of old collections from highly trusted friends of from the family.

Cheers
Roger
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Joined: March 15th, 2006, 3:45 pm

June 18th, 2009, 3:08 am #4

Interesting question.
Yet I do not think they made left and right gun patches.

Both gun badges are the same on this tunic.

In all the photos I've seen they all look like this. Most Artillery men seem to show the right arm
in photos most likely because it look "correct"

Well I did find some examples of left and right guns...but who knows.
These are original to the tunic. Perhaps they were out of "left" pointing gun
when this sgt sewed them on? It's in "field used" condition so I guess all I can do is guess.

Cheers
R
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Ed Storey
Ed Storey

June 18th, 2009, 11:42 am #5

Roger you have an exceptional collection that is immaculate in its presentation very nice!!

Please though, do not have the impression that your uniforms are field used. Their originality is not in question, but the chances that these uniforms were actually used in the trenches or on the gun line are pretty slim to nil. This is not a criticism but you have to keep in mind that during the Great War uniforms were literally lived in and that there was a good amount of wear, tear and staining on these garments. At the end of hostilities and during the repatriation and demobilization process, worn clothing was returned to QM and was replaced by new garments that were tarted up with all of the appropriate insignia for the return home.

Your Officers SD may have seen field use, but again, if the garment was too badly worn, then there is a very good chance it would have been replaced.
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Joined: March 15th, 2006, 3:45 pm

June 18th, 2009, 1:20 pm #6

Ed...I know what a demobilization tunic is, I am not a newbie.

Without writing a book about it, I have all the evidence in
my research to state that my 16th officer tunic was worn in the field
but I don't feel the need to get into it, the 4th MGC as well sd the 1st MGC tunic are NOT demob' tunics.

Cheers
Rog
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Joined: January 1st, 1970, 12:00 am

June 18th, 2009, 3:40 pm #7

Interesting question.
Yet I do not think they made left and right gun patches.

Both gun badges are the same on this tunic.

In all the photos I've seen they all look like this. Most Artillery men seem to show the right arm
in photos most likely because it look "correct"

I would challenge anyone on the forum to post a photograph of a sergeant of the CFA, CGA or RCA wearing a backwards facing gun. I've never seen it done.

Anything is possible of course - I've seen photos of all kinds of "wrong" stuff - service chevrons especially, since the regs changed at least once or twice, and there was much confusion - but I'd be very interested to see such a thing.

That is not the point though. I think this highlights the utility of forums like this. No collector can ever - ever - hope to know it all, or get every detail correct, working on his own in isolation. To think that it is possible is conceit. I'm not accusing Roger of doing so; in fact, he has been very generous with his knowledge on this forum, helping us learn from him as he has - I hope - learned one or two things by asking here. That is what the forum is for.

The point is, of course, that there were so many details, so much arcane "stuff" going on, and often not recorded for posterity, that without each other to refer to, it would simply become lost. We can respect that - and each other - and acknowledge it in our interactions. I've certainly been caught out on elementary errors of fact; even published them in books. It's unfortunately part of the game.

I'll say it again - <em>It's part of the game. </em>You put out the best information you have, and if you're lucky you learn something from it. Sometimes someone taps you on the shoulder. Sometimes you get your teeth kicked in. But you learn. I prefer the tap, personally, behind closed doors in the best case, but it doesn't always happen that way.

But it WILL happen, each time you show yourself and your "stuff" in public. When people stop noticing things that are wrong, that's a bad sign, I think. It means we've stopped being interested.
Michael Dorosh
Webmaster
canadiansoldiers.com
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Joined: March 15th, 2006, 3:45 pm

June 18th, 2009, 4:01 pm #8

I would agree with you Mike on all points
As I stated, I have never "added" any unit patch ,guns etc...to any of my tunics. I do not believe it "making up" a tunic.

But since that tunic seems to be all original I just wondered if a "goof up" like that has ever been seen.

Both cannons are so poorly stitched (almost tacked on using the same tan color cotton thread. who knows but I've had it looked over by other "experts" and no one felt it was "made up"

As tempting as it would be to get the "correct" pointing gun and add it on..I will not. It came like this and like this it will stay.

R
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Joined: March 15th, 2006, 3:45 pm

June 18th, 2009, 5:44 pm #9

I would challenge anyone on the forum to post a photograph of a sergeant of the CFA, CGA or RCA wearing a backwards facing gun. I've never seen it done.

Anything is possible of course - I've seen photos of all kinds of "wrong" stuff - service chevrons especially, since the regs changed at least once or twice, and there was much confusion - but I'd be very interested to see such a thing.

That is not the point though. I think this highlights the utility of forums like this. No collector can ever - ever - hope to know it all, or get every detail correct, working on his own in isolation. To think that it is possible is conceit. I'm not accusing Roger of doing so; in fact, he has been very generous with his knowledge on this forum, helping us learn from him as he has - I hope - learned one or two things by asking here. That is what the forum is for.

The point is, of course, that there were so many details, so much arcane "stuff" going on, and often not recorded for posterity, that without each other to refer to, it would simply become lost. We can respect that - and each other - and acknowledge it in our interactions. I've certainly been caught out on elementary errors of fact; even published them in books. It's unfortunately part of the game.

I'll say it again - <em>It's part of the game. </em>You put out the best information you have, and if you're lucky you learn something from it. Sometimes someone taps you on the shoulder. Sometimes you get your teeth kicked in. But you learn. I prefer the tap, personally, behind closed doors in the best case, but it doesn't always happen that way.

But it WILL happen, each time you show yourself and your "stuff" in public. When people stop noticing things that are wrong, that's a bad sign, I think. It means we've stopped being interested.
Yes Mike
I have indeed learned much from this forum and the CEF study forum.
I hope I have been able to add some helpfull information in some of my prior posts. I tend not to say too much unless I am 100% certain of what I am claiming. I am not a die hard expert, but I know more about the CEF than the average person. As Mike pointed out, forums like these are a great way to exchange information that may not be available on line or in books.
In many cases some members cannot afford to buy some of these referance books. I have been lucky over the years and managed to obtain many important and out of print books about the CEF. Just look at how hard it is to find a simple copy of the Charlton standard guide to CEF Infanrty badges. I think thel sell for over $100?.

In the end these photos are just my way of sharing with the members and thanking you all for your help over the years.

Yes Mike
I have indeed learned much from this forum and the CEF study forum.
I hope I have been able to add some helpfull information in my prior posts.
I tend not to say too much unless I am certain of what I am claiming but it's hard to be 100% sure on anything.
Over the years members like Bill Alexander, Clive Law, Ed Story, John Cameron, Joe Sweeny (Sorry if I forgot anyone else..) Have all been helpfull.
If I cannot find the answers in my books....then I post my question.

As Mike pointed out, forums like these are a great way to exchange information
Not everything can be found in books.
In many cases some members cannot afford to buy some of these referance books. I have been lucky over the years and managed to obtain many important and out of print books about the CEF. Just look at how hard it is to find a simple copy of the Charlton standard guide to CEF Infanrty badges. I think they sell for over $100?.

In the end these photos are just my way of sharing with the members and thanking you all for your help over the years.
Of course I do welcome any comments about anything in my collection that may be "incorrect" I appriciated that Gille Aube pointed out those details.
If he is correct about the lanyard, then I will move it over, I have however obserbed in Clives book a photo of an Artillery Sgt wearing it on the left side.
Now I'd like to see the gun pointed in the wrong direction.

A good example of "odd things" being worn is the 19th Bn formation patches on my 19th tunic...just take a look at it in my photos
It's 100% untouched and was sewn on like that.
Bill Alexander replied "The 19th Bn must have mis-interpreted the regs regarding the formation patch. I believe other examples exist with the divsion patch mis-oriented."


it is clearly not official, but seems to have been worn like that.
I'd love to find photos or documentation reagarding the 19th wearing patches in this way
If anyone has any info. please let me know...I have not been able to find any such info in the war diaries of the 19th.
I also do not have the official history of the 19th.

Cheers
Roger
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Ed Storey
Ed Storey

June 18th, 2009, 5:55 pm #10

I would agree with you Mike on all points
As I stated, I have never "added" any unit patch ,guns etc...to any of my tunics. I do not believe it "making up" a tunic.

But since that tunic seems to be all original I just wondered if a "goof up" like that has ever been seen.

Both cannons are so poorly stitched (almost tacked on using the same tan color cotton thread. who knows but I've had it looked over by other "experts" and no one felt it was "made up"

As tempting as it would be to get the "correct" pointing gun and add it on..I will not. It came like this and like this it will stay.

R
I absolutely agree, even if the badges are on backwards, never change them, that is the joy of the original garment.
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