question re. formation patches for WW2 military district forces

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question re. formation patches for WW2 military district forces

David Soltess
David Soltess

April 15th, 2007, 5:48 pm #1

I'd like to find out if and, if so, what distinctive formation patches various Military District units would have worn in mid-1943.

The ones I'm interested in are Military District 2 (Toronto HQ: Queen's York Rangers, Scots Fusiliers & Garrison Bn.); Military District 4 (Quebec HQ: Princess of Wales); Military District 12 (Dundurn, SK); and for 21st Infantry Brigade (Valcartier: Fus. de Montreal, Maisonneuve, Reg. de Levis) after reorganization which removed it from 8th Division.

Also, I have a question about the proper order for seniority for regiments in 6th, 7th and 8th division infantry brigades. This site and a couple of other sources list the seniority one way, while Tripp's "Canada's Army in World War II" orders them differently.

For example, 13th Inf. Brigade is ordered here as 1) Canadian Scottish, 2) Brockville Rifles, 3) Edmontion Fusiliers. Tripp orders them as 1) Brockville Rifles, 2) Edmonton Fusiliers, 3) Can Scots.

I just need to know who is more accurate. I'm mounting and framing my badge collection, and I'd like to have this order of seniority correct.

Thanks in advance for any help.
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Bill Alexander
Bill Alexander

April 15th, 2007, 9:10 pm #2

The Military Districts did not have a formation patching system during World War 2. Formation patches within Canada were for the three home divisions. Some returned soldiers, later in the war, were allowed to wear their parent formation signs.
Nicholson, in Six Years of War, gives the same seniority as Tripp.
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David Soltess
David Soltess

April 15th, 2007, 9:50 pm #3

Mr Alexander. I appreciate the clarification, esp. on the seniority question.

From what you say, in your opinion would the 21st Infantry Brigade and the Princess of Wales Own Reg. still have worn 8th Div patches in 1943, or would they have discarded formation patches entirely once they were removed from 8th Div command?

Similarly, what about regiments which weren't ever part of a home division roster, like the Queen's York Rangers or Scots Fusiliers? Would they just not have worn any at all either?

Thanks again.
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Bill Alexander
Bill Alexander

April 15th, 2007, 10:05 pm #4

David, Once units were removed from the order of battle of the division, they no longer had permission to wear the patch of that formation. It would be totally counter-productive to allow units to wear a patch which identified them as part of a formation, when in fact they were not part of that formation. They should have removed the patch once reassigned. (Having said that, there was a WW2 photo posted here on the board back a couple of months ago of some fellows wearing a formation patch to a formation to which they no longer belonged. It was never resolved as to why this situation existed.)
Units that were not on the order of battle of a particular formation would not have worn any formation patch.
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David Soltess
David Soltess

April 15th, 2007, 10:58 pm #5

Helps immeasurably & I think my mounts will be all the better for it.
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Mark W. Tonner
Mark W. Tonner

April 15th, 2007, 11:14 pm #6

Mr Alexander. I appreciate the clarification, esp. on the seniority question.

From what you say, in your opinion would the 21st Infantry Brigade and the Princess of Wales Own Reg. still have worn 8th Div patches in 1943, or would they have discarded formation patches entirely once they were removed from 8th Div command?

Similarly, what about regiments which weren't ever part of a home division roster, like the Queen's York Rangers or Scots Fusiliers? Would they just not have worn any at all either?

Thanks again.
Hi David;

Regarding your question to Bill:

"... in your opinion would the 21st Infantry Brigade and the Princess of Wales Own Reg. still have worn 8th Div patches in 1943, or would they have discarded formation patches entirely once they were removed from 8th Div command?"

From approx. January through to October, 1943, while 21st Infantry Brigade was a part of 8th Canadian Division, the three infantry battalions of the brigade:

3rd Battalion, Les Fusiliers Mont-Royal, C.I.C.
3rd Battalion, Le Regiment de Maisonneuve, C.I.C.
1st Battalion, Le Regiment de Levis, C.I.C.

would have worn the formation patch of the 8th Canadian Division.

Effective 15 October 1943:

Headquarters, 8th Canadian Division
Headquarters, 21st Infantry Brigade
3rd Battalion, Les Fusiliers Mont-Royal, C.I.C.
3rd Battalion, Le Regiment de Maisonneuve, C.I.C.
1st Battalion, Le Regiment de Levis, C.I.C.

were all disbanded under the authority of General Order Number 15 of 1944 - Effective 15 October 1943.

Regarding the 1st Battalion, The Princess of Wales' Own Regiment (M.G.), C.I.C., converted and redesignated: 1st Battalion, The Princess of Wales' Own Regiment, C.I.C., they would have not worn any formation patch at all, this battalion was never part of any of the three home service divisions. The battalion was placed on Active Service within Military District No. 4 for more or less Internal Security duties. 1st Battalion, The Princess of Wales' Own Regiment, C.I.C. was also disbanded under the authority of General Order Number 15 of 1944 - Effective 15 October 1944.

To answer your other question to Bill:

"...what about regiments which weren't ever part of a home division roster, like the Queen's York Rangers or Scots Fusiliers? Would they just not have worn any at all either?"

Yes, you are correct, 1st Battalion, The Queen's York Rangers (1st American Regiment), C.I.C. and 1st Battalion, The Scots Fusiliers of Canada, C.I.C. would not have worn any formation patch. Also, both these last named battalions were also disbanded under the authority of General Order Number 15 of 1944 - Effective 15 October 1944.

I know this was a long answer, but I hope it helped.

Cheers

Mark


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Joined: February 1st, 2006, 6:13 pm

April 15th, 2007, 11:26 pm #7

Hi David;

A correction to my earlier reply:

I wrote:

"1st Battalion, The Princess of Wales' Own Regiment, C.I.C. was also disbanded under the authority of General Order Number 15 of 1944 - Effective 15 October 1944."

this should read:

"1st Battalion, The Princess of Wales' Own Regiment, C.I.C. was also disbanded under the authority of General Order Number 15 of 1944 - Effective 15 October 1943."

and I wrote:

"Also, both these last named battalions were also disbanded under the authority of General Order Number 15 of 1944 - Effective 15 October 1944."

this should read:

"Also, both these last named battalions were also disbanded under the authority of General Order Number 15 of 1944 - Effective 15 October 1943."

Old age setting in .....

Cheers

Mark

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David Soltess
David Soltess

April 16th, 2007, 12:22 am #8

I was going to mount the badges for the 3 home defense divisions as they were in spring/summer '43, at the height of their strengths according to Stacey's history. I did know that the PWOR, Queen's York & Scots Fusiliers were among many units disbanded from Sept. '43 onwards.

I've got a frame with the appropriate divisional and/or command patch for each of the 3 home divisions, but needed to make up one for the military districts & local defense forces outside the home defense divisions or Atlantic/Pacific commands.

Think I've got it all well-sorted now, thanks to you and Bill Alexander, & the arrangement will be appropriately patchless.

Now, just because there always seems to be at least one more question to ask, did anyone on this forum ever establish whether the yellow diamond flash was authorized/worn by the Canadian West Indies/British Guiana contingents? I know Bill Alexander posted that he had a yellow patch sample (Veteran's Guards?), but don't recall seeing anything conclusive posted as to whether the 'Bermuda diamond' was used generally or not.
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Doug Townend
Doug Townend

April 16th, 2007, 12:25 am #9

The Military Districts did not have a formation patching system during World War 2. Formation patches within Canada were for the three home divisions. Some returned soldiers, later in the war, were allowed to wear their parent formation signs.
Nicholson, in Six Years of War, gives the same seniority as Tripp.
In adition to the three home defence divisions, there were the two war zone commands - Atlantic and Pacific which wore the greeen and grey diamond shaped patches respectively.

DT
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Bill Alexander
Bill Alexander

April 16th, 2007, 10:53 pm #10

I was going to mount the badges for the 3 home defense divisions as they were in spring/summer '43, at the height of their strengths according to Stacey's history. I did know that the PWOR, Queen's York & Scots Fusiliers were among many units disbanded from Sept. '43 onwards.

I've got a frame with the appropriate divisional and/or command patch for each of the 3 home divisions, but needed to make up one for the military districts & local defense forces outside the home defense divisions or Atlantic/Pacific commands.

Think I've got it all well-sorted now, thanks to you and Bill Alexander, & the arrangement will be appropriately patchless.

Now, just because there always seems to be at least one more question to ask, did anyone on this forum ever establish whether the yellow diamond flash was authorized/worn by the Canadian West Indies/British Guiana contingents? I know Bill Alexander posted that he had a yellow patch sample (Veteran's Guards?), but don't recall seeing anything conclusive posted as to whether the 'Bermuda diamond' was used generally or not.
David, At this point in time I would not use the yellow diamond for the B Force units. There is no substantial proof that any of the contingent wore the patches in period evidence. Until a GO/RO, or period photographic evidence confirms the use of the patch, the prudent route is to leave the formation patch out of that part of the display. The various "Force" deployments as a whole did not appear to have formation patching at the time of their deployments. (Eg the Hong Kong patch was not approved until the soldiers of that force were on their way home to Canada in 1945.)
In reference to the Atlantic and Pacific Commands, they were patched by 1943, but pose a bit of a problem as to how you want to include them in you display. The order of battle for these two commands was very fluid and included units that were not on the order of battle of the home divisions, but the home divisions were under control of the commands. The order of battle changed frequently and many of the units were moved to other formations and overseas. Mark Tonner may be able to assist in creating an order of battle, and there is orders of battle given for the two commands for 1943 in Stacey's 6 Years of War.
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