Military Police traffic control /odd holster

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Military Police traffic control /odd holster

Joined: August 7th, 2002, 2:04 am

September 29th, 2007, 1:35 pm #1

Hi there

I'm painting a figure of an MP on traffic duty. He's wearing tall boots, riding trousers, BD blouse, gauntlets and a crash helmet.

Were the gauntlets and helmet white? Or was the helmet red?

Help!

Steve

PS What do you make of this holster and pistol. A trooper of 1CAB was photographed wearing it.

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Ed Storey
Ed Storey

September 29th, 2007, 1:40 pm #2

The Pistol is a US M1911 .45, I am unsure what the holster is.
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Michael W. (Mick) Stewart
Michael W. (Mick) Stewart

September 29th, 2007, 3:17 pm #3

Hi there

I'm painting a figure of an MP on traffic duty. He's wearing tall boots, riding trousers, BD blouse, gauntlets and a crash helmet.

Were the gauntlets and helmet white? Or was the helmet red?

Help!

Steve

PS What do you make of this holster and pistol. A trooper of 1CAB was photographed wearing it.

Steve: If he was wearing gauntlets and was on traffic control (TC) duty, most likely they were white. However, although I am not quite sure, I beleive some gauntlets issued were also brown (motorcyclists) but I am not positive about that. Most Military Police (MP) TC personnel wore white webbing (which began in North Africa) so as to be seen by armoured vehicle crews; casualties in TC companies were high. I am unsure about whether Canadian MPs wore whitened webbing (commonly called "Christmas Tree Order") as it was not worn as most beleive in Northwest Europe, except by TC Company personnel.

Regards,
Mick Stewart
www.Redcaps.us
1 ABN DIV Provost Coy (recreated)
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Ed Storey
Ed Storey

September 29th, 2007, 4:42 pm #4

Hi there

I'm painting a figure of an MP on traffic duty. He's wearing tall boots, riding trousers, BD blouse, gauntlets and a crash helmet.

Were the gauntlets and helmet white? Or was the helmet red?

Help!

Steve

PS What do you make of this holster and pistol. A trooper of 1CAB was photographed wearing it.

Steve, which theatre of operations, division is your figure going to represent?
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John Cameron
John Cameron

September 29th, 2007, 5:13 pm #5

Hi there

I'm painting a figure of an MP on traffic duty. He's wearing tall boots, riding trousers, BD blouse, gauntlets and a crash helmet.

Were the gauntlets and helmet white? Or was the helmet red?

Help!

Steve

PS What do you make of this holster and pistol. A trooper of 1CAB was photographed wearing it.

Hi Steve,
I'm going to assume you are talking about painting a Canadian Provost Pointsman, as opposed to British CMP TC, who were two completely different animals.
The crash helmet was either left in one of the original khaki shades or painted white, sometimes with the letters "PROVOST" hand painted or stenciled in red. The gauntlets generally seemed to have white cuffs and tan or brown gloves, but they could be completely white. Provost on traffic duty also often wore white traffic control sleeves extending from the elbows to the wrists.
Picures are worth 1000 words, here are a few:



Famous image of No1.Provost Coy (RCMP) traffic control point in Italy


Winter, NW Europe early 1945.


"These two subs are a bit big for the kitbag" Souvenier hunting Spring 1945?


"Yeah, Infantry only measure theirs in inches" Note the netting and field dressing on the helmet.


Side view, NW Europe 1944.


Provost always get the girls.


Good view of the uniform insignia, Spring/Summer 1945

As you can see, uniform details varied widely.
Also check out http://mpmuseum.org for details of breeches, boots, web etc.
John
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Ed Storey
Ed Storey

September 29th, 2007, 5:14 pm #6

Steve: If he was wearing gauntlets and was on traffic control (TC) duty, most likely they were white. However, although I am not quite sure, I beleive some gauntlets issued were also brown (motorcyclists) but I am not positive about that. Most Military Police (MP) TC personnel wore white webbing (which began in North Africa) so as to be seen by armoured vehicle crews; casualties in TC companies were high. I am unsure about whether Canadian MPs wore whitened webbing (commonly called "Christmas Tree Order") as it was not worn as most beleive in Northwest Europe, except by TC Company personnel.

Regards,
Mick Stewart
www.Redcaps.us
1 ABN DIV Provost Coy (recreated)
This new term for the webbing worn by Commonwealth Military Police may be in vogue with the 1 ABN DIV Provost Coy (recreated), but I would suggest that before going as far as claiming that it is a commonly used term that more than just some anecdotal evidence from another re-enactor be used as proof of this terminologies use. Admittedly I have never heard this term used before and welcome the opportunity have it proved to me that this term is more than just the ramblings of one aged Second War Veteran or a term used locally by one specific unit.

Anecdotal evidence is nice and the muses and remembrances of Veterans should be recorded, but these are just a person’s remembrances which can and often do change over time. To start or perpetuate a new set of terminology over evidence provided from another re-enactor who apparently talked to a veteran or veterans is tenuous at best. Stronger evidence would be something written at the time in Routine Orders or perhaps in a period letter to a family member using the term or even a unit history, in other words a document that can actually be referred to. But until such source data can be found, I would suggest restricting such terminology to recreated re-enactments and not try and convince all of us in this forum of its common use until other evidence is found.
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Ed Storey
Ed Storey

September 29th, 2007, 5:19 pm #7

Hi Steve,
I'm going to assume you are talking about painting a Canadian Provost Pointsman, as opposed to British CMP TC, who were two completely different animals.
The crash helmet was either left in one of the original khaki shades or painted white, sometimes with the letters "PROVOST" hand painted or stenciled in red. The gauntlets generally seemed to have white cuffs and tan or brown gloves, but they could be completely white. Provost on traffic duty also often wore white traffic control sleeves extending from the elbows to the wrists.
Picures are worth 1000 words, here are a few:



Famous image of No1.Provost Coy (RCMP) traffic control point in Italy


Winter, NW Europe early 1945.


"These two subs are a bit big for the kitbag" Souvenier hunting Spring 1945?


"Yeah, Infantry only measure theirs in inches" Note the netting and field dressing on the helmet.


Side view, NW Europe 1944.


Provost always get the girls.


Good view of the uniform insignia, Spring/Summer 1945

As you can see, uniform details varied widely.
Also check out http://mpmuseum.org for details of breeches, boots, web etc.
John
John, fantastic photographs and they certainly go a long way in answering the question. Thanks for sharing them.
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Joined: July 15th, 2006, 11:15 pm

September 29th, 2007, 11:20 pm #8

The Pistol is a US M1911 .45, I am unsure what the holster is.
The holster looks like it could be an Italian Army tropical service holster for the M 1934 Beretta.
Eugen bender's book on military holsters shows several. I've a scan if anyone wants to post it.

Ron V
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Michael W. (Mick) Stewart
Michael W. (Mick) Stewart

September 29th, 2007, 11:40 pm #9

This new term for the webbing worn by Commonwealth Military Police may be in vogue with the 1 ABN DIV Provost Coy (recreated), but I would suggest that before going as far as claiming that it is a commonly used term that more than just some anecdotal evidence from another re-enactor be used as proof of this terminologies use. Admittedly I have never heard this term used before and welcome the opportunity have it proved to me that this term is more than just the ramblings of one aged Second War Veteran or a term used locally by one specific unit.

Anecdotal evidence is nice and the muses and remembrances of Veterans should be recorded, but these are just a person’s remembrances which can and often do change over time. To start or perpetuate a new set of terminology over evidence provided from another re-enactor who apparently talked to a veteran or veterans is tenuous at best. Stronger evidence would be something written at the time in Routine Orders or perhaps in a period letter to a family member using the term or even a unit history, in other words a document that can actually be referred to. But until such source data can be found, I would suggest restricting such terminology to recreated re-enactments and not try and convince all of us in this forum of its common use until other evidence is found.
Ed:

The term "Christmas Tree Order" came from a post off the UK group website from current British reenactors representing Military Police (MP) at WWII reenactments in England. These reenactors, one of whom I am currently speaking with, have spoken to many WWII CMP Personnel. However, you are correct regarding the documentation for the use of such terminology - it should be verified. This is an ongoing mission from our reenactment unit.

I would like to mention that I have heard the use of the term ONCE from a veteran I am currently speaking to in the UK. I am a paid associate member of the Royal Military Police Association (RMPA) in the UK, having served as a Military Policeman (MP) and state certified Texas Peace Officer; it is my intention to track down the information behind the term with factual, documented sources.

I disagree with the term you used: "the ramblings of veterans". WWII veterans that I have spoken to (American, British and Commonwealth) have never "rambled" but seem to have very clear and precise recollection of their time in service specifically scuttlebutt terminology from the war.

Regards,
Mick Stewart
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Michael W. (Mick) Stewart
Michael W. (Mick) Stewart

September 29th, 2007, 11:48 pm #10

Ed:

Here is one documented source:

WWII (British) SLANG

http://www.wakefieldfhs.org.uk/War%20Slang.htm

This website is based upon input from:

* Normandy Veteran's Association (Leed's 61 Branch)
* Combined Services Association
* 8th Army Association (Wakefield)

Regards,
Mick Stewart
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