Combat "Pips"

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Combat "Pips"

Clive
Clive

December 16th, 2009, 1:57 pm #1

I know - they're not 'pips' they're stars. In any event I am looking for several pair of these little 'pips' as worn in the early days of Combats (OG64) - prior to the introduction of the universal rank insignia. I am loking for singles or pairs and for both the regular pattern as well as the Guard's pattern.
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Joined: February 17th, 2005, 4:59 pm

December 16th, 2009, 4:57 pm #2

I think I've got two singles plus three on a bush jacket epaulette. Drop me a line.
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Joined: February 17th, 2005, 4:59 pm

December 16th, 2009, 4:58 pm #3

Don't forget to replace the "at" with @ in the email address.
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Ed Storey
Ed Storey

December 16th, 2009, 6:58 pm #4

I know - they're not 'pips' they're stars. In any event I am looking for several pair of these little 'pips' as worn in the early days of Combats (OG64) - prior to the introduction of the universal rank insignia. I am loking for singles or pairs and for both the regular pattern as well as the Guard's pattern.
I believe these are the type of 'pips' Clive is looking for. As far as I know, the Combat Pips were only manufactured in the one universal type for field use.

[/IMG]
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Christopher Furlotte
Christopher Furlotte

December 18th, 2009, 1:43 am #5

ED,
Nice photograph of the '64 pattern old army "pips". Pity, how the Canadian Army got rid of it due to unification, and uniform modifications (Tri-Service) etc,. I often wonder why the Government of Canada went that route to save money in order to destroy Canadian Army uniform traditions ie, rank styles in order to make it more Canadian? Or was it to get rid of British influence of our uniforms and adopt a more modern "American" type of uniform!? Again, remember it was the 1960's and nationalism was popular an all high back then, so I'm guessing that may been a part of it, and and saving money as British Regimental system of style of uniforms are very sharp looking, but then again,..it does come with a fairly high price ie, Highlander mess dress or Guards Busby as an example!

Metal or cloth Stars (pips) are very dashing, yet costly to manufacture compare to tri-service bars! I suspect or is to make it more Canadian!? I see a very strong U.S. influence in our dress uniforms ie, Tyle green shirt and CF colour dress greens are very similar to the U.S.Army dress uniform.

Here's a picture to see some comparences. The current U.S.Army dress uniform replace the Olive Drab dress uniform in 1957/58. So I'm guessing the Canadian leadership design may have been influenced to a degree(?) by this modern looking uniform.


http://www.daylife.com/photo/0bu8fQa043fFy?q=H1N1
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Christopher Furlotte
Christopher Furlotte

December 18th, 2009, 1:56 am #6

Here's a link from John Cameron's website on the Provost Corps. Officers Rank Insignia 1962-1968. (Page section)

http://mpmuseum.org/index3.html

Most of the current Commonwealth Armies around the world still retain this type of rank,with the exception of Canada.
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Joined: February 5th, 2005, 4:07 pm

December 19th, 2009, 3:52 pm #7

Chris,the variety of uniforms that existed within the old regimental system did not lend itself to national identity. Have you examined any of the pre-1969-70 group photos of various military courses composed of members from a number of different army units? It's a rag-tag looking bunch of soldiers/officers. You'd be hard pressed to positively identify any/all of them as being Canadian Army. With the CF Greens, Canadian soldiers in uniform now have a uniform (pardon the pun) Canadian appearance.

As far as the rank insignia goes - it was a simple system of pips up to Captain, and a crown for Major. After that, as you went further up the Field Officer and General Officer rank insignia, it got increasingly more complicated and confusing, not only to our soldiers, but especially to foreign personnel, not to mention our American cousins to the South whom Canadians regularly trained with and were stationed overseas with.

Canadian officers attending US Army courses/schools in the US such as Ranger and Special Forces, invariably wore US BDUs - Jungle fatigues at the Special Warfare School in Bragg - with US rank insignia, for example, captain's bars.

Yes, most, if not all other Commonwealth armies remain faithful the the old British rank insignia system, but if it were so simple, why then does this British general sport US rank insignia, if only to clearly identify his rank? I will concede that as simple as the US field officer rank insignia system is, on occasion, Americans have been known to also wear foreign rank insignia. One well-known American general in particular sported Saudi rank insignia during the Gulf War but I hardly believe it was done in order to clearly identify the rank insignia of four stars


[/IMG] British general with US and British rank insignia.
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Christopher Furlotte
Christopher Furlotte

December 19th, 2009, 11:52 pm #8

Alex,
I've seen many photographs of Canadian soldiers throughout during the 1960's and they did indeed looked very sharp bunch as a whole. As for group shots ie, on course etc,. Yes they did look a bit confusing ie, odds and sods in uniforms of various units etc,. Mind you, with the Regimental/Corps identities be it head dress ie, unit coloured cap bands and shoulder titles and lanyards you could pick out who belong to who etc.

I guess when it really comes down to "COST" $$$$, then yes it was very expensive to maintain for the Canadian taxpayer and govt as a whole, and all those different types of uniforms to wear and maintain is complex way to run an army, and it did have a very strong British flavour to it, I will admit somewhat reluctantly to this.

Many soldiers that I've talk too in past Regimental reunions admit to feeling a loss of unit identity with the introduction of CF greens compare to their previous uniforms.

Yes, the American rank structure is much easy to use and less complex then the British system. Yes, I've known Canadian training with the U.S.Army wore U.S.Army Fatigues/combat uniforms while on course!

My favorite Fatigues that the Americans wore was the South Vietnam Armies Tiger Stripe Combats. It was used extensively with not only U.S.Special Forces personal but also by Australian Special Air Service Regiment, and New Zealand SAS.

Here's a rare photograph and a rather interesting article on Aussie Special Forces with photo's and Commonwealth insignia.

http://www.diggerhistory.info/pages-con ... /aattv.htm


Chris
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Joined: February 5th, 2005, 4:07 pm

December 20th, 2009, 2:22 pm #9

Thanks for the link, Chris. Very interesting.
I had no idea that the guys from Oz had four VN VCs.
I'd known of one, but not the other three.
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Christopher Furlotte
Christopher Furlotte

December 20th, 2009, 8:13 pm #10

Alex,
I guessed you might be interested in that link as I'm always discovering more on the "Anzac's" history throughout the years since the early 1980's. The ANZAC's used a good deal of American uniforms and equipment as well as they're own, plus some British kit as well.

Here's a few links you might enjoy!


http://books.google.ca/books?id=Qha3ivF ... q=&f=false

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=asYCjGxxyC0

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pK8TJFMs51c

The Australians like the Canadian Army used the FN C1, they Aussie's called it the SLR (Self Loading Rifle) like they're British counter-parts. The ANZAC's also wore ERDL Uniform and the Vietnamese manufactured Tiger Stripe camouflage uniforms.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ERDL_pattern

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tigerstripe

Chris
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