Battle Honours of 14th Canadian Hussars - where do they come from?

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Battle Honours of 14th Canadian Hussars - where do they come from?

Joined: January 1st, 1970, 12:00 am

January 29th, 2007, 2:40 am #1

The 14th Canadian Light Horse (renamed 14th Canadian Hussars in 1940 and the regiment that raised the 8th Recce Regiment) perpetuate the 5th Battalion and the 209th Battalion, but have battle honours that don't match up with either of those units. Officially, they perpetuate the 209th, which was broken up for reinforcements. regiments.org doesn't shed any light on the matter, nor Regiments and Corps (1964).
Michael Dorosh
Webmaster
canadiansoldiers.com
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Bill
Bill

January 29th, 2007, 12:47 pm #2

Mike, Which honours don't match?
Stewarts Concise Lineages indicates what you have related as well.
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Michael Dorosh
Michael Dorosh

January 29th, 2007, 3:45 pm #3

The 209th Battalion received only Great War as an honour, but the 14th do not hold this one according to Regiments and Corps. The 14th Hussars had 7 Battle Honours (6 emblazoned)

Ypres 1915 '17, Festubert 1915, Arras 1917 '18, Hill 70, Amiens, Hindenburg Line, Pursuit to Mons

This is verified my Michael O'Leary who looked up the General Order that granted them, and is repeated in Regiments and Corps and at regiments.org. Well and good, but the 5th Battalion, CEF, according to regiments.org, have 20:

Ypres 1915 '17, Gravenstafel, St. Julien, Festubert 1915, Mount Sorrel, Somme 1916, Thiepval, Ancre Heights, Arras 1917 '18, Vimy 1917, Arleux, Hill 70, Passchendaele, Amiens, Scarpe 1918, Drocourt-Quéant, Hindenburg Line, Canal du Nord, Pursuit to Mons, France and Flanders 1915-18

Is regiments.org incorrect about the 5th Battalion's honours? If not, then why do the 14th Hussars only receive 7 battle honours instead of 20, if they perpetuate the 5th?
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Michael Dorosh
Michael Dorosh

January 29th, 2007, 3:46 pm #4

Just to be clear, I realize "Great War" is not held by any unit with other battle honours for the First World War. My point being that they either perpetuate the 209th, or the 5th, but for some reason have the Battle Honours of neither...
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Bill
Bill

January 29th, 2007, 5:28 pm #5

Mike, There are two categories of battle honours. Many regiments have far more honours than are practical to have on the colour. They had to choose which honours were the most important for the unit and have these emblazoned on the colour. In the case of the 5th Bn, the longer list contains all the honours they were awarded. The short list, as indicated on the sites and references you consulted are the honours emblazoned on the battalion colour. To put it plainly, there are important honours and less important honours. In my understanding, these were decided by the unit and approved by National Defence or its predecessor.
I am not sure how this figures in the perpetuation by the 14th, as you would think the perpetuating unit would be entitled to all the honours, and not just those emblazoned.
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Michael Dorosh
Michael Dorosh

January 29th, 2007, 5:33 pm #6


The 7 honours listed for the 14th Canadian Hussars include one that is not emblazoned. In short, seven total.

This is reflected by Corps and Regiments, in which 6 of the 7 are in bold type, as well as at regiments.org, which also bolds those "emblazoned" battle honours.

I am well aware of the distinction between emblazoned and non-emblazoned battle honours.  That is clearly not the case here.

And still begs the question - where do the 14th Canadian Hussars' battle honours come from, and why?  Seven honours, 6 emblazoned.  I thought the maximum number for display was 10, so why leave one of the seven off the regimental guidon?  I realize 10 is the maximum and that if you really wanted, you could display less than 10. Why would you want to, though?

I wonder if this isn't a clerical error.  From my website:

"In the 1990s, a staff officer at the Directorate of History and Heritage discovered that the Lincoln and Welland Regiment was entitled to two previously overlooked Battle Honours because no one had noticed the official list had been printed on both sides of the same piece of paper. The honours KUSTEN CANAL and BAD ZWISCHENAHN (the last two, chronologically, and typed on the reverse side of the official list) had been granted in 1951 but not recognized due to this oversight until 1995."

Truth is stranger than fiction.

Incidentally, this is the definition of "emblazoned" on my website - http://www.canadiansoldiers.com/mediawi ... Emblazoned 

If I am in error, I'd appreciate any corrections.
Last edited by dorosh on January 29th, 2007, 5:40 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Bill
Bill

January 29th, 2007, 7:03 pm #7

Mike, You have confused me. The 14th Canadian Hussars battle honours of the 5th were all emblazoned honours except for Arras 17-18. The 5th had at least one more emblazoned honour, which from the information you have provided, wasn't perpetuated by the 14th Hussars. This was THE SOMME 1916. Some sources also indicate ARLEUX, but this appears to be a typo in that source.
Again, my understanding was that the unit submitted the honours that they wished included on their history to DND for approval. It would seem that for whatever reason, the 14 Canadian Hussars didn't include all of the honours of the 5th. The 5th is also perpetuated by the North Saskatchewan Regiment, as well as the 14th Canadian Hussars. The North Sask Regt appears to have the entire set of honours, both emblazoned and granted.
Perhaps the answer lies in this context? The rules stated that a certain number of soldiers had to be present from a particular "parent recruiting unit" in the active CEF battalion, to merit the granting of an honour. Did the 14th claim certain honours based upon this? Or was there some sharing of honours with the North Sasks and the 14th? Or as you say it may be something strictly cleirical.
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Malcolm Young
Malcolm Young

March 4th, 2008, 4:37 am #8

Hello Bill

I am the Commanding Officer of the North Saskatchewn Regiment and I see from this post that you are interested in determing why the N Sask R bears more battle honours that were awarded to the 5th Bn who we perpetuate. If you would like to learn more about the reason for this please drop me a line at youngcma@sasktel.net.

Regards

Malcolm Young
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Joined: January 9th, 2007, 1:32 am

March 4th, 2008, 11:34 am #9

Malcolm,

Rather than let Michael know the answer to his question in an email why not inform us all by putting it on this site? I also would be interested in reading your response.

Welcome to the site.

Dan.
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Bill A
Bill A

March 4th, 2008, 11:07 pm #10

Malcolm, many other members of the Forum would certainly like to know the full story as well. Please post the answer for all to read.
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