blosslover
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Joined: March 16th, 2008, 9:31 pm

November 24th, 2016, 4:02 am #31

BROD hurrah!!!!!!!
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Dax
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Joined: March 16th, 2008, 3:48 pm

November 24th, 2016, 8:05 pm #32

Two good tribals... second one was crazy fun..

The crawling-on-their-bellies relay race amused me.
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bilki
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Joined: March 19th, 2008, 3:46 pm

November 24th, 2016, 8:31 pm #33

Poor Jessica! That was a rough couple of days for her. She had a terrible time on the snake course, then she drew the black rock! I still feel bad for her. I wonder how long she was upset with herself for not just voting off Hannah after the first tie.

Oh, I should go watch her Ponderosa video...
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KMInfinity
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Joined: March 17th, 2008, 1:09 am

November 25th, 2016, 4:26 pm #34

Yeah it was crazy fun, but Jeff is wrong. Drawing rocks isn't the ultimate "all-in" it's the ultimate sign of a cast that is terrible at gameplay. Massive rookie mistakes make for exciting tribals and wild storytelling, which is all good from the TV viewing POV, but the best players are like Kim Spradlin, who win without drama.
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KMInfinity
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November 25th, 2016, 4:28 pm #35

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KMInfinity
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November 25th, 2016, 4:47 pm #36

I thought this was a good post (from Maddog03) showing the traditional edgic analysis of the remaining castaways, and why so many still think Ken wins.

I dunno.

I'll follow up with a defense of David's very odd editing as the first winner with a) a journey edit b) blatant contradictions shown of his gameplay - most recently - being shown, and not shielded, from being wrong about the Hannah/Ken idol use.
wrote:... Ken hasn't gotten any edit content that a winner would NOT have gotten. Like everything is consistent with a winner's edit. The only thing that takes away from Ken being the winner is absence, lack... but everything Ken HAS received has been winner-esque.

In fact, Ken is the only person in the game that has gotten winner content that 100% a winner would get. Nothing about Ken's edit do we say, "Oh they wouldn't have shown Ken saying x, y, z if he were the winner. But all other 8 contestants have said things winners wouldn't say.

Adam -- too much to count from the past 2 or 3 episodes.

"I wake up in the middle of the night and I see Taylor sneaking some food, so I decided it's an opportunity to build trust with him...if I can convince him to vote my way, then I've got control of this game." (33x07) Adam would have not said this and then subsequently failed to build trust with him. The editors would have manipulated it in a non-damaging way.

Adam wouldn't have said the folliowing at the merge if he won."I made the merge... this is the point of the game where alliances and loyalties are really tested, and the really great players get separated from the mediocre players. And I hope that I'm in the former group." (33x07) He says this and then the rest of the episode discredits Adam as not being in the "former group".

Bret

"I believe David has an idol, even though he claims he does not, and that makes me very nervous." (33x01) Bret wouldn't be shown saying this if he won. He says he believes David has an idol and yet David doesn't. The editors would never show the winner having an incorrect read like that in episode 1.

David

Too much visibility in the first 5 episodes (Not impossible but no winner has ever had that much visibility at the beginning ofthe game for that long without a break)

"I’m at the mercy of my tribemates." (33x01) wasn't a great confessional to have in episode 1.

David probably wouldn't have said this if he won: "I feel so guilty saying this, and I’m glad Paul didn’t have a heart attack, but honestly, when he-- when he went down, I thought, 'This might be a good thing for me.'" (33x02)

David wouldn't have said this probably if he won: "I played an idol tonight, but I don’t know that playing that idol was the right move because I saved someone who nobody really wants to work with, and now I don’t have an idol, and I’m incredibly vulnerable." (33x05) Why would the editors show David showing this side of regret if he won?

Hannah

"When you look at the group, I started noticing that there really has been this sort of division between, like, the high school cool kids and the sort of weirdo nerds. Cool kids versus misfits and I do feel like the misfits seem like they’re going to be on the outs. So I need now to squash that in the bud." Hannah probably wouldn't have said this if she won and then subsequently in the next epsiode voted with the "cool kids" against a misfit Mari.

Jay

"Figgy’s going home. And it sucks because I had Figgy and Taylor in the trifecta, okay? And we were gonna make things happen. Unless something happens and things go crazy, which they usually do, my alliance is gone." (33x02) Jay probably wouldn't have said this if he won. This confessional showed that Jay was not in control of his game at this point. Michelle had to pop out of the clouds to wake Jay back up and realize a game was going on. And she's already out. So that's a terrible sign.

Jay wouldn't have been shown failing at making fire if he won. "So we wake up this morning. We don’t have a fire yet, and I’m starving and I’m thirsty. I’m trying to use this flint. I’m exhausted. I’m trying. I’m trying. It just does not work for me and I don’t understand why. And I’m just losing all hope and I’m like, 'You know what? Forget this.'" (33x05​

Jay wouldn't have said this in the merge episode if he won: "But then I also got in my pocket... Will and Hannah, and I'm pretty sure Bret and Sunday... I'm the kingpin, but no one knows, and I want to keep it that way" (33x08). Tribal Council in that episode showed that Jay is definitely NOT the kingpin. Michelle was voted out, and Jay came to realize he was on the outs.

Jay probably wouldn't have been shown making a personal remark about Adam, calling him an "asshole" if Jay won.

Sunday

Sunday wouln't have been shown saying: "I went to the well with Chris and Bret. We basically talked about sticking to our alliance of six. So what we have on the docket for tonight is to vote out CeCe. Voting CeCe out to keep the tribe strong is a good thing to do. She has not done well in challenges. I can’t argue it at all" (33x03). She says this.and then she subsequently votes Paul out. This confessional was completely unnecessary if Sunday were the winner. She says voting out Cece is best for her game and then doesn't do what's best for her?

Will

Will probably wouldn't have gotten a confessional explaining why he ate food (at the immunity challenge Ken won) if he won the game. It gives him unnecessary attention.

Also, let's face it. Will isn't winning the game.

Zeke

Zeke wouldn't have said the following if he won in the second episode: "We lost today’s Immunity Challenge, but, you know, I’m a little bit tickled to be going to Tribal Council. I came to vote people out, and I came to win a million dollars, and I… I want to get started. Figgy’s in the hot seat right now." (33x02). He is then subsequently blindsided as Mari goe​s out.

Hannah referred to Zeke as arrogant and condescending in a confessional this past episode.

Zeke made a personal attack at David at the last Tribal Council.


---------------------

On the other hand, everything counting against Ken's winner chances is all 100% from lack. None of his content you can point to and say shouldn't be there. It's just there's not enough content.

Ken

No confessionals for 4 episodes in a row.
Not much mention in episode recaps.

But edgic should always be done from the meat and bones-- the substance first. And then only after you look at what IS there that should NOT be there can you then look at what is MISSING and use that to count against players.

So this is the biggest point in favor for Ken's edit and why people have still not let Ken's edit go. The only thing counting against Ken is lack of content, but all the content he has gotten is good.

Remember the traditional edgic adage: NO content is ALWAYS better than BAD content! A lot of us, including TWG and myself ascribe to this view. This is why we have still not let Ken go yet. Because none of the content that Ken has received has been bad.
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bilki
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Joined: March 19th, 2008, 3:46 pm

November 26th, 2016, 4:05 pm #37

It's all a manipulation! LOL! It's crazy how we get such a skewed version of what actually happens. Has there ever been a winner who the other Survivors of the the same season thought wasn't portrayed honestly on the show?

Ken is VERY popular over at PreTV.
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KMInfinity
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Joined: March 17th, 2008, 1:09 am

November 26th, 2016, 11:12 pm #38

Well, I know they ALL say this-n-that got left out, showing why they were awesome or not. But the one who comes to mind is Sophie, who was really disliked and only lost because of Coach's missteps. That whole season is a good look at a "Why X Lost" edit.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Survivor:_South_Pacific

Parvati got a very kind edit that made her look like she was a much better player than she was. Between the late game medivac, and the sudden 3-way to 2 way finale that cut Cirie from the finale, she's good but not the goddess player some fanbois like to call her. (imo :P )

I would actually like to see some analysis of this after tempers have cooled, etc. A lot of what we read is "current-while-airing" such as the boot of the week interviewing, and so I think there's still some hard feelings.

http://robhasawebsite.com/survivor-ranking-the-winners/

A good list I mostly agree with.
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bilki
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Joined: March 19th, 2008, 3:46 pm

November 27th, 2016, 12:47 am #39

Thanks, KMI! It's interesting to me how the theory is that the editors want the winner to come out looking a certain way rather than presenting them with flaws and all. Was it widely assumed that Natalie was going to win Samoa because Russell Hantz was portrayed as such an ass? For some reason, that's the only win that I actually remember without looking it up.
Last edited by bilki on November 27th, 2016, 12:48 am, edited 1 time in total.
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KMInfinity
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Joined: March 17th, 2008, 1:09 am

November 27th, 2016, 3:25 pm #40

Russell marked a new era in survivor editing, and some blame him for the trend to bad editing overall, though there was a course correction eventually somewhere around One World with Kim. In general, Jeff has way more control over the show as a producer than he did in the early years, and I think that while he does think like Mark Burnett in some ways, he's much more intrigued by the "big moves" and alpha males than the actual gameplay. There are season where entire alliances and strategies have been left on the cutting room floor if they could spin a story around a "hero edit" winner. Apparently, that was especially true in JT's season, when Fishbach's play (and play by others) was minimized given JTs crushing win.

Natalie's big move was making sure she wasn't a threat to Russell - so he would take her to the end. Remember, from the editor's POV, they KNOW Russell loses, but instead of showing Natalie's skill at manipulating players behind the scene, particularly Russell, while egging on the internal conflicts with the other alliance post merge (can't remember them, but they were dominant at the beginning) they actually DOWNPLAYED Russell's asshattery in comparison to how bad he really was. Which is why a great many, maybe even a majority of fans, thought he would win. He still has a LOT of support as the player "cheated" out of his deserved win. Bollocks I say. :P So, in one sense, she rode his coattails to the end, but in another sense, she was smart to see the flaws in his game and skillfully play on them while also keeping in his good graces. I think in another season, she might have shown some superb alliance building skills, a la Kim Spradlin, given her successful navigation of the Russell season.

If I were a sociologist/media analyst, I would push to have the full 39 days of film for analysis for a few seasons and really dig into the actual group dynamics, with a side focus on how the editors pick and choose stuff given their POV in hindsight knowing the winner.
Last edited by KMInfinity on November 28th, 2016, 10:47 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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