Krystal
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Joined: June 26th, 2009, 4:32 am

April 22nd, 2014, 4:37 am #41

Is Lou the guy in Don's office? What a jerk. He could have easily covered for Don.

I enjoyed the Sally stuff also. She is a savvy little girl and it is interesting watching her mature.
Last edited by Krystal on April 22nd, 2014, 5:16 am, edited 1 time in total.
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tgir
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Joined: March 16th, 2008, 3:36 am

April 22nd, 2014, 4:44 am #42

KMI, really? Pete is your favorite???
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bilki
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Joined: March 19th, 2008, 3:46 pm

April 22nd, 2014, 5:01 am #43

tgir wrote:KMI, really? Pete is your favorite???
You didn't know that? She's been a Pete apologist for years. :D
Last edited by bilki on April 22nd, 2014, 5:10 am, edited 1 time in total.
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tgir
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April 22nd, 2014, 12:23 pm #44

bilki wrote:
tgir wrote:KMI, really? Pete is your favorite???
You didn't know that? She's been a Pete apologist for years. :D
I didn't know. He makes my skin crawl...which, I suppose, means he's doing a good job.

Last year (I think) he was playing Mr. Darcy in Pride and Prejudice onstage in Minneapolis. My daughter and I were appalled: we would both have loved to see the the play but could not bring ourselves to watch him do Darcy. Now, I could see him as Wickham just fine. But I couldn't let him ruin Darcy for me, which he would have no matter how good he was. Pete Campbell just transcends.
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KMInfinity
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Joined: March 17th, 2008, 1:09 am

April 22nd, 2014, 6:10 pm #45

Okay unless this season brings about some deeper understanding or new insight, it's my opinion that Pete has far more class, integrity, and morality than Don (and sadly, it now appears) Peggy. Yes Pete is seriously flawed - no doubt. But I continue to believe Pete's failings are more understandable than Don's for a lot of reasons. The biggest, however, is that Pete is sort of naive and unaware -- not yet emotionally and psychologically mature, not yet fully accountable. Of course he SHOULD be, as an adult, but he's sort of a man-child. This isn't to EXCUSE his behavior, but to explain and understand it.

Don, on the other hand, knowingly makes horrible choices. He isn't ignorant, or immature, or unsophisticated. He's just rotten. A cad, a bounder.

See, in my imaginings, Don is like Wickham, or even better, Willoughby from Sense and Sensibility.. Pete is like Bingham. Bingham is a nice guy because circumstances are easy for him, not because he has any moral fortitude or depth. But he has potential.

Nobody's like Darcy. :P

I am worried with this being the last season and Peggy being so unlikeable. I hope the moral here is NOT that a woman in business becomes a bitch. They are skating really close to some tropes I despise. We'll end up with the the whole debate about 'reporting what was' VS exploring possible realistic stories.

Joan continues to be the best thing on the show, imo. Loved her frustrations and concerns, and how she could handle Lou. I look forward to her in Accounts and if they really are gonna destroy Peggy, then Joan better succeed.
wrote:I didn't really get the ruckus over Sally showing up, and what's-his-face being there in Don's office. Seemed like he was in such a snit over nothing, then took it all out on Dawn.
I took this as an indictment of the male hierarchy at work. Lou is driven by his own agenda, and hasn't the time, energy, or smallest interest in anything else. In the male dominant culture, it isn't a question of whether it costs him a little or a lot of effort, it's that he is 'above it all' and superior, and shouldn't even be BOTHERED with such a thing. It's the kind of compartmentalization that one sees in a very structured class society, where the people below are 'less human' and thus have no call upon one's basic HUMAN decency. Here are just a few of the ways Lou would 'justify' his attitude:
-Families take second place to work. He isn't under any obligation, morally or otherwise, to deal with this.
-If Don's family life was in order, such a thing (Sally arriving unannounced) wouldn't even happen.
-His personal 'goodness' has no connection with his work behavior. At work, he does what is expected to be successful in his career.
-Dawn failed in her duty to keep distractions and 'the real world' from interfering with his almighty work. It matters not a bit (and that was made very clear) that her reason for being away from her desk was to get his wife perfume, ostensibly 'for' him. In fact, she should have found a way to do that without inconveniencing him as she did.
-In some ways, he was 'closing ranks' to protect Don, as he didn't want to be the one to deliver the news to Sally that her dad was a loser who wasn't at work where he should be. But it pissed him off that he was 'honor bound' to protect Don, so someone lower on the pyramid had to pay the price...Dawn.

I do think a major theme has always been the dehumanizing nature of work. Is it the Madison Avenue culture? the male work environment? the materialistic culture? the idea that puts work ahead of family (esp. to be successful)? Lou represents the worst in every one of these dynamics.

And Pete's existential struggle to find meaning in his work and life is why he is poised to stand like a giant above Don and company. :cool:

Some day. When he has a little more balls, and a lot more compassion for others.
Last edited by KMInfinity on April 22nd, 2014, 6:27 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Dax
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April 22nd, 2014, 6:35 pm #46

Peggy was unlikeable in her behavior with Shirley, absolutely, but I think 'if they really are going to destroy Peggy' is an overstatement. She's miserable. It's well-established that she doesn't always do or say the right thing... but she IS basically a 'good' person we can root for...

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Krystal
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Joined: June 26th, 2009, 4:32 am

April 22nd, 2014, 7:37 pm #47

Yes, I also think Peggy is miserable so that is why she is behaving badly.

Don had a really hard upbringing, Pete did not. That allows (in my mind) for Don to be more screwed up.

I agree with your analysis of Lou and how he treats people. That was common for the time.

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KMInfinity
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April 22nd, 2014, 9:25 pm #48

>>>>Peggy was unlikeable in her behavior with Shirley, absolutely, but I think 'if they really are going to destroy Peggy' is an overstatement. She's miserable.

So far she's a still a good person, but she's been miserable for a long while, and if anything she has been increasingly negative as she's move up in power. It's not just with Shirley. Everyone she comes in contact with acts like they're dealing with a prickly cactus, which is the whole point of the elevator scene and the exchange about Valentine's Day with Stan. It's understandable, but it's been her arc forever. This is not, imo, an episodic moment, but a continuation of all of last season. It's always been a balancing act with her as she tries to negotiate 'how to be a woman' within a man's business culture, but I would say she is no longer automatically a 'good' person. She's calculating, abrasive, self righteous; she's got tunnel vision, she's hard, she's sarcastic, bitchy, and just generally a pain-in-the-ass to work with and be around. When 'good Peggy' realizes she's done wrong, she feels shame, admits she's wrong, but in general I would say she's bitchy Peggy with moments of 'good Peggy' surfacing, rather than the other way around. It may be the show's theme to show that's what happens to women. It may be justified, and definitely understandable. It's just sad to me that it's the story that is being told, even if it is a 'true' reflection of the times.

And can arguably be said to describe the work and business climate even today.


>>>Don had a really hard upbringing, Pete did not. That allows (in my mind) for Don to be more screwed up.

True. Except, I would think Don would also have a stronger understanding of what's important, and not be sucked into so much of the negative behavior because he recognizes what's really of value. The whole plot with his 'breakdown of honesty' is creating a confusing thematic focus for me. Are they trying to suggest that honesty is a weakness? That Don's weakness is his lack of control (not know WHEN to be honest?) Something else? You can't fight city hall/human nature? I want to rewatch those scenes with Sally again.

One thing I've always disliked about MM is that it limits itself to an almost documentary style storytelling, with little analysis or point of view or attempt to judge or assess. No one shares meaningful or insightful discussion or support. People are adrift like islands, leading those lives of quiet desperation. The happiest people are seem to be the least self aware...

Their theme could be 'And that's the way it is.' Not, "It SHOULDN'T BE this way."

Granted Weiner and Hamm et all probably believe their anti-shallow viewpoint (for lack of a better term) is implicit in the work, but I would suggest in fact the show skates perilously close to glorifying the world they showcase, and many critics and viewers have said that. Hamm in fact mentioned in one of the interviews this season how flabbergasted he was to realize how many fans 'want to be like Don Draper.' The show does not present a really strong suggestion that this world is damaged, rotten to the core, hollow and shallow.


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Dax
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April 22nd, 2014, 10:41 pm #49

Re: Peggy - fair enough.

>> One thing I've always disliked about MM is that it limits itself to an almost documentary style storytelling, with little analysis or point of view or attempt to judge or assess. No one shares meaningful or insightful discussion or support. People are adrift like islands, leading those lives of quiet desperation. The happiest people are seem to be the least self aware...

I agree with your facts here, but don't think it would be stronger for working against that... I don't think these characters would be true to themselves if they... discussed their feelings more. Oh, when they TRY to, it's fascinating (Don/Sally here... memorably, Don and Joan drinking and chatting a little), but they're too... you know, 'them' - to navigate healthy communication (which is fun, since they're all about communicating 'their message' to their clients and their clients' audiences...).

>> The show does not present a really strong suggestion that this world is damaged, rotten to the core, hollow and shallow.

I think it does, it's just that dummies (like those Hamm is talking about; also those that 'want to be Tony Soprano') are CLEARLY missing it, but I don't think that's Weiner's fault...

>> Are they trying to suggest that honesty is a weakness? That Don's weakness is his lack of control (not know WHEN to be honest?) Something else?

That's a fun discussion. Because telling Sally and Bobby more about who their father is (because they know nothing)
(like Jon Snow)
is a GOOD thing... but switching up his Hershey pitch like he did... um, yeah, no that wasn't the right time or place...

Sigh. Only twelve more hours... I can't wait to see how it all unfolds, but I'm going to be very sad to not follow these characters any further into their lives...
Last edited by Dax on April 22nd, 2014, 10:43 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Krystal
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Joined: June 26th, 2009, 4:32 am

April 23rd, 2014, 12:12 am #50

You had (have) to be a bitch in those days and even some still to make it in a male oriented career. I was a bitch, and still can be, but not to my assistants or whoever did a good job for me. However, in my group practice, I was the one who fired evryone, my 2 male partners couldn't do it. But day to day I treated people better (if they were doing their job) and was better liked than the guys by some of the staff.

In the early days as a female specialist it was hard as the men either wanted to ignore you or sleep with you. The wives were jealous if you looked too good. Much socializing was done on the golf course, and I didn't golf, or men's clubs.

Of course I had a good home life and my husband had a career so all of the income did not fall on my shoulders.

I mostly had female patients, and I had a very good relationship with almost all of them.
Last edited by Krystal on April 23rd, 2014, 1:53 am, edited 1 time in total.
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