tgir
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Joined: March 16th, 2008, 3:36 am

November 29th, 2016, 3:44 pm #51

Krystal wrote:Regarding the City vs. Small-town thing I watched election night as the cities went blue and all the rural areas and distance suburbs went red and voted for Trump. That is enough to tell me I don't want to live in any of them because certainly the racist and homophobic index is far higher than it is in cities. Although I know that college cities tend to be much more liberal for instance Austin is the only city in Texas that actually votes blue
Due to the influence of the college there.
That's exactly what drove my point, but not in the way you think.

My own personal take is that the single biggest mistake that Hillary made was the deplorables remark. That stung terribly. These are really genuinely decent, hardworking people who have to struggle with finding enough work to keep the farm afloat-yep: a full time job on top of their more than full time job, all of it hard work with a great deal of economic risk plus physical risk. Farming remains one of the most dangerous occupations in the US. I will never, ever forget that shortly after we moved to MN, there was a huge story on the news about a young man, maybe 16 years old, who got his arms--both of them--caught in some farm machinery--and had both his arms severed. He was alone, managed to make it to the house and then climbed into the bathtub so he wouldn't ruin his mother's floors. This takes so much more than courage. He had surgery to re-attach arms, I believe and last I heard (and it's been many years) he was doing ok.

Oh, there was probably no insurance or if there was, it was a very high deductible individual family policy.

This is the sort of person who lives in rural America. This is not someone who is a deplorable, no matter how he votes.

In rural America, people see their kids leave not just the area, but the entire lifestyle. Often not for lots of money but to scrape by in a larger city. Manufacturing jobs (also very dangerous) are not plentiful and they no longer pay very well. If families are fortunate, one of the kids tries to keep the farm going and to hold out against huge agribusiness concerns, GMOs and the fancy attorneys which will take the family farm if some of the pollen from their GMOs blows over int the neighbors fields. Especially if the neighbor objects.

And then there are the kids who get sucked into drugs. Lots of them, just like in the big cities, only without the big bucks to get kids into treatment, if you can find a treatment program. You think mental health services are poor in urban areas? Try rural/small town America. I know more than one kid who treated his own mental illness with bath salts and other sh*t like that, having little access and no choice within that access to actual treatment. Partially because I live in a college town and partially because I live in MN, but it's actually fairly LGBTQ friendly. The racism against the Hmong has died down over the 28 years I've lived here. It's still rough to be a black American in MN. People tend to expend all their efforts at not being racist on Somali immigrants and Muslim immigrants--and keep plenty of hate for Native Americans and Black Americans. But that's not at all different than in the cities.

Alcohol is a huge problem. Again, less access to treatment for any kind of addiction, mental health issue, etc. Oh, yes, I live in the same area as Mayo clinic--work there so I have access, but honestly, most people don't have access unless they have something pretty wrong with them, and I don't mean addiction. Also, judging by one of my co-workers who has serious mental illness and is grossly (every sense of the word) addicted to nicotine, caffeine and if what I hear is true, also alcohol but has made zero progress in any of these, despite long term treatment and including hospitalization, well, it's not good.

Read any small town newspaper police report (and they all have police reports) and it is a very rare incident that makes it to the papers that does not involve alcohol and/or drugs. And in my local paper, they report calls from the fire department because of a smoke detector going off. My very best friend in the entire world is married to a small town attorney in Indiana. They have exactly the same types of crimes. I don't believe it's different anywhere in the country.

I spent a year working in the Head Start program in my town, which was filled with children whose parents were recent immigrants--generally very good parents with little money--and children of parents with addiction problems, mental health issues and a couple whose mothers, at least (who knew where the dad was?) had developmental delays, and some from families who had lived in poverty for generations. Which of those were good parents and which were not was less obvious than you might think. Honestly, there were no problems present in this small city (population 25K) that are not mirrored in large cities.

Local schools struggle financially to meet the extra needs of children living in poverty but whose parents are too proud to sign up for food stamps. Or too accustomed to living on the fringes to realize they qualify. There is special federal aide that comes to schools serving children in poverty and the way that is measured is through enrollment in food stamps.

Those rich factory owners ALL work hard AGAINST public education and tremendously support private (Catholic) schools, which literally tell kids with learning disabilities to stay home on the days that benchmark tests are given, skewing the schools performance in a way that is not open to public schools. How do I know this? My kids have friends who attended the Catholic school system, and at least one had significant learning disabilities (ignored by his Catholic schools) despite being extremely bright and who is now quite successful in his chosen career path (computers). This helps foster the next generation of workers who will accept very poor wages and terrible treatment because they have little other choice. My kids have all worked at some of these places--and it was a huge wake up call. A nickle and hour raise is common. I'm not kidding. Poor benefits, including and especially expensive health insurance with high deductibles and many restrictions to access. LOTS of people work multiple--2, 3, even 4 part time jobs because employers avoid paying full time workers to avoid benefits. Of course, there's a tremendous amount of stress that comes with being poor, especially if you have kids. And people deal with the stress the way rich people do: by drinking. A lot. And sometimes cheating. Divorcing--which is never cheap. Some drugs. And employers get to complain about how unreliable their workforce is. Unfortunately, I am not kidding. There is a reason I drive >100 miles a day for my job and it isn't the scenery.

Access to health care of any kind is limited and expensive. Food shelves? Sure, but people I knew who used them were deeply--DEEPLY--ashamed of needing that free turkey at Thanksgiving (a common 'bonus' given to workers by those generous employers). Assistance with heating? Yep. If you qualify and live in town. Doesn't apply to rural people who use propane.

Finally, FINALLY, maybe the Democrats are getting it: https://www.washingtonpost.com/politics ... ge%2Fstory

Frankly, rural poverty is as significant as is urban poverty. It's just easier to ignore. It's always fun to make fun of country bumpkins and hicks instead of recognizing them as hardworking, decent people who need infrastructure and support and most of all RESPECT.

And don't forget: it's easier to think of poverty as being a problem of BLACK URBANITES. Thinking of poverty affecting people who look a lot like you, who maybe are your family members (but not that close: your daddy got off the farm and never looked back for a reason) is much less comfortable.
Last edited by tgir on November 29th, 2016, 3:58 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Dax
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Joined: March 16th, 2008, 3:48 pm

November 29th, 2016, 5:36 pm #52

Last edited by Dax on November 29th, 2016, 5:47 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Krystal
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Joined: June 26th, 2009, 4:32 am

November 29th, 2016, 8:18 pm #53

Tgir, I am quite aware of the poverty in the rural areas. It's not dissimilar to what is going on in West Virginia with the coal mining. Several years ago I strongly recommended a book to you all it was called methland and it was excellent in educating people as to why there were so many rural communities with serious drug issues. I strongly recommend everyone read it.

What I don't understand is why we're all people all seem to be so racist and afraid of other cultures. And what do they think the Republican party will do for them when it has done nothing but support the big Industries which has destroyed their farms
And your other ways of making a living. That is what totally flummoxes me. It's like their hatred of other people of different colors are races supersedes their logic or any common sense they may have to really think about exactly why they're in the boat that they are in
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tgir
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Joined: March 16th, 2008, 3:36 am

November 29th, 2016, 8:37 pm #54

Krystal, you are wrong. Rural people are no more likely than urban people to be racist. What has been a huge destabilizing issue in rural areas is the growth of big agribusiness, factory farms and also the decline of manufacturing and blue collar work.

As family farming has declined, smaller cities have also declined. The tax base is shrinking and it is more and more difficult for towns to provide decent quality services. And part of this is that wages have stagnated and declined. My small city is the county seat and there is not a decent place to eat a nice dinner or to buy non-casual not low end clothing. Our only bookstore closed. Well there is one which sells used books. And we are a university town! With a university, pseudo university and a tech school! Plenty of bars and tattoo parlors, though. Nearest town of any size is 30 miles away. You cannot buy decent furniture in town. It broke my heart to buy my range and hood out of town--and my fridge. Was able to buy dishwasher in row which is good because they service locally. If you want cheap crap, we've got a nice big Walmart sold to us as a good way to attract good paying jobs. Not. Instead it draws a lot of police time and efforts.
Last edited by tgir on November 29th, 2016, 8:43 pm, edited 3 times in total.
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Krystal
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Joined: June 26th, 2009, 4:32 am

November 29th, 2016, 11:31 pm #55

If they were not for a cyst what was it about Donald Trump that they found so appealing because like I said looking at the board the cities were blue and all the whole areas voted for him. So exactly why did they vote for him when the Republican party has done nothing but promote big business who takes their jobs away.
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tgir
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Joined: March 16th, 2008, 3:36 am

November 30th, 2016, 1:01 am #56

Because: 1. It is almost always the case that whichever party has been in power for 8 years is usually voted out. 2. The truth is that the dems have ignored rural America in favor of counting urbanites. The truth is the needs and concerns are not that disparate. But the perception is that they are much more different than they are. 3. The (small but noticeable) influx of people from different cultures, who look different and talk different and practice weird religions get to s of attention and help and often take jobs at lower wages and worse working conditions, putting additional stress on people looking for a way to support their families but who now are underbid for those jobs. Since the days of the shrub, at least, there has been a near constant stream of fear mongering ( thanks Rupert Murdoch-- talk about outside interference!), and a concerted effort to dismantle public education, plus drugs! And you get a population that is terrified of losing what little remains of their way of life.

Besides, you cannot convince me that the ladies at the gym are not more racist and more classist and less tolerant for all their privilege and big city says.
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Krystal
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Joined: June 26th, 2009, 4:32 am

November 30th, 2016, 2:51 am #57

But they have not voted Democrat maybe ever. If you look at the election map after election map it's been the cities and the suburbs that carried Obama and any other Democrat not the rural areas.

The women at my gym are mostly cunts, and I do not hold them up as an example for anybody
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Krystal
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November 30th, 2016, 2:54 am #58

And you can't tell me an immigrant has ever taken a white person's job away because these jobs go unfilled unless an immigrant takes them. Oldest city nursing home assistant jobs are immigrant Filipinos or Mexicans. White people would rather collect welfare than take these jobs.
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Krystal
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November 30th, 2016, 2:56 am #59

Good example right here Sheriff Joe got rid of most of the illegal aliens so now you have to pay a lot more and wait a lot longer if you want work done in the garden or Roofing done and there's still no white people doing it because it's a shitty job in the heat here.
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tgir
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Joined: March 16th, 2008, 3:36 am

November 30th, 2016, 3:14 am #60

Krystal wrote:And you can't tell me an immigrant has ever taken a white person's job away because these jobs go unfilled unless an immigrant takes them. Oldest city nursing home assistant jobs are immigrant Filipinos or Mexicans. White people would rather collect welfare than take these jobs.
First of all, plenty of immigrants are white. For instance, my great grandparents were white. For another, most immigrants are actually Christian, rather than Muslim. And frankly, when I worked with people from the mid-east, almost all of them would have been astonished to learn they were not considered white.

Secondly, sure, there are plenty of roofing crews and gardening/janitorial crews in my area which are Hispanic. And plenty which are white. The Hispanic crews generally beat out the competition because they are cheaper.

Most of the immigrants in my area are Hmong (but that was mostly from 20+ years ago) and now Somali. For the most part, the initial waves take no one's jobs. They don't (yet) have the language skills or the cultural skills to fit in well enough to take those jobs. Most of the Somalis are in the larger cities but not all. A good number work in my building, actually, doing work that requires only a high school education. Within my work unit (<30 people) my boss is Chinese American by way of Canada, another person who has a small degree of supervisory authority over me is also Chinese as was a former co-worker. The current co-worker actually holds a Ph.D. but is working the same job that someone who only had a BS held before because frankly, it's hard to find work as a Ph.D. and generally, the pay isn't that good. The former co-worker was an MD (degree from China), doing the work that I am doing with my BS. I'm not sure why he never moved to get an American MD but in his case, suspect his language skills held him back. Nice guy but extremely thick accent after many years in the US. And I'm good with accents! Also work with a guy from Ethiopia (Christian) and have worked with a German woman (bat shit insane), and someone from Viet Nam (naturalized). This is within my very small work unit. And sure, if they weren't doing those jobs, a 'white' person or at least an American would be doing those jobs. Did those jobs before they were hired and will do them again when the current workers move on. Looking at the labs near me I see a number of people in jobs similar to mine who are Asian (foreign born)--mostly SE Asian, from various Middle Eastern countries and from a handful of African countries.

Plenty of (white) Americans working right along side them in similar jobs. VERY few American born blacks. VERY few. Like maybe 3 or 4 that I see, out of >1000 people in my building.

For a while, the cleaning crew was hired from outside the system because: they were supposed to be cheaper. Most of them were Hispanic. Now, they are all Mayo employees and most of them are white. Not a coincidence.

Across the river in WI is a large chicken processing plant, with the workers being mostly Hispanic. The work is hard and frankly disgusting and the pay is low but they aren't in much position to argue for better work conditions or better pay. (White)Americans used to do most of those jobs but it turns out you can hire someone from south of the border looking to make some money to send back home for less than you can an American.



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