KMInfinity
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Joined: March 17th, 2008, 1:09 am

November 29th, 2013, 8:10 pm #21

Bloss wrote:Dax, I think since Moff doesn't see Sherlock as a kids show and he can't play with timey wimey stuff it is more sane. (The part where 11 uses that term, and 10 lies about where he got it from to the War doctor was funny.) I agree with KMI about Gatiss.
LOL----

I don't mind a judicious amount of timey wimey servicing the plot, but if hasto be written well or it's too obviously a writer's cheat.
Bloss wrote:Another thing I wonder, I read somewhere that they said that Matt Smith's Doctor was written/created to be more US accessible. Do you think his Doctor is more appealing to US viewers or is it just because Who is more available in the US than it used ot be...

ETA: Just read this...If true I hope it helps. Capaldi being a DW freak for most of his life may make things better. "So, I was at the 50th in London Excel yesterday and I thought you might find this interesting. During the Eleventh Hour panel when talking about Capaldi, Matt mentioned that the new Doctor knows as much about DW as Moffat (sure you disagree with that statement). Moffat replied by saying that him and Capaldi have already argued over scripts. I've a feeling next season will have a lot less continuity errors and plot holes."
The various arguments from various Whovian factions make the GL subfanbases look sane and rather unified. :eek: With that caveat, I'd say that a lot of old school fans enjoy Moffat's version of Dr. Who because they claim he is more old school, which for many means more child centered. Moffat seems to agree because in a recent interview he said he writes best what he is living, and so right now is best at writing what it means to be a father. So he sees everything through the lens of what his preteen sons will think of, and also admits he consults with them on various plots and monsters and stuff. (How this relates to his Sherlock stuff I don't know. Someday I'll catch p on that, just to see.)

I'm a little worried about Capaldi because everyone is just so gaga over him and i don't know him at all...But if he's arguing with Moff that's good because I think Moffat is a great writer, but maybe one who works best with a partner, and/or a counterbalance that brings out his best.
Bilki wrote:His stories are too often convoluted or sappy. I'm still mad about what he allowed to happen with the Cybermen back in Closing Time. I didn't care for most of the episodes that were the last run of Amy and Rory. It's just not the Doctor I remember. I grew up watching Tom Baker's Doctor, and I'm pretty sure there weren't any sappy endings.
And you would find yourself in a weird subgroup if you showed up on the Gallifrey Base website http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gallifrey_Base (one of the biggest Brit Who fan sites) because Baker's Doctor included lots of horror elements and some think he was 'closest' in mind to RTD's view of The Doctor. But others disagree and remember more of the 4th Doctor's humor and antics. So one camp argues Baker is more of an 'adult' Doctor Who, as is RTD's Nine and Ten, whereas a bunch of others argue the exact opposite. lol. Interesting that the writers and producers for Baker's Doctor, at one point, were told to make the show more 'kid-friendly' as was Moffat after RTD supposedly.

Bloss wrote:I really liked Amy and Rory too, though I felt they were underwritten...things like how they remember things that were undone and such...

Each of RTD's seasons had a different tone...while I think Moff's show was more consistent in that way and it wasn't just because Moff only had Matt Smith as the Doctor. KMI does that make sense? I could write about that, but no time...
I LIKED that each season under RTD was a bit different in focus, in style, in companion. Moff was consistent, but imo in ways that weren't always good. We were discussing this on TWoP and one of the comments was that he always rushed the character development to push the action forward. I think that's why Amy and Rory felt underwritten. Imo, the whole of Moffat is underwritten because it sacrifices character to plot. For example, is anyone really satisfied with the way River, Rory, and Amy played out as a family. There was a lot of richness that could have developed, and never was. I could think of a dozen examples of beats that were missed, character moments that were ignored or brushed aside in what i saw was a manic rush to the next BIG PLOT DEVELOPMENT.

ETA
Loved School Reunion (Not Spike's intro in School Hard :P ) because of Tony Head....
Last edited by KMInfinity on November 29th, 2013, 8:12 pm, edited 2 times in total.
“You want weapons? We’re in a library! Books! The best weapons in the world!” — The Doctor, S2E2
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blosslover
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Joined: March 16th, 2008, 9:31 pm

November 30th, 2013, 12:04 am #22

Bilki, this may be revisionist, but when people talk about Sarah Jane today, she seems to be the precursor to the stronger female companions (not assistants) that appear on 21st Century Who. Part of the issue people supposedly had about the show in the 80s was how the female characters regressed and Sarah Jane/Romana were stronger in earlier episodes. School Reunion does touch upon how the Doctor left her…and all of that good stuff. Plus like KMI mentioned Tony Head. Before the gang figures out what is going on children die, and during the story everyone has to RUN away from the villains. I can get you a link to an online vid from some website outside North America if you want…

I agree about the writer's cheat. The problem is if a cheat is used too many times it gets ridiculous.

KMI not at all surprised by the various subgroups within the Doctor Who fandom. While I've posted a tad on TWOP, I doubt I'd survive on a site like Gallifrey Base. :D Interesting how people see it both ways. (As I've mentioned before since I only started watching in the summer and just because of seeing two episodes of Broadchurch I'd be an easy target. They would think I was only there for the "pretty" or some such…well I only do that if the episode is bad and that's all there is to it…"embrace the pretty if the show/episode is ##$itty.) So what is your opinion KMI do you think about the argument re: Baker's time at Who.

Capaldi being a Whovian himself is part of why he gets so much love. Also within the UK he has an established fan base. (Hopefully since he and Craig Ferguson are real friends they were in a band together years ago and did drugs together…there will be a whacked interview.) I also believe part of it is because he is older, so some fans are happy there will be less of the fangirl stuff. Matt Smith seems to get a bit of that, but the David Tennant fans seem to be legendary in that regard. Someone posted the opening how to use 3D video from their local movie theater of "The Day of the Doctor" showing and well people just started to cheer seeing Ten on screen. Unfortunately due to that, I couldn't hear what he was saying, which was frustrating… I can sort of understand why this would drive some Classic fans insane.

Yes I would have loved to see River, Rory and Amy act like a family even if River looked older she was younger than Rory and Amy. I'm a character fan over a plot fan, have been for years. Complained about that for years with GL, so I agree.
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KMInfinity
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November 30th, 2013, 3:29 pm #23

I haven't seen much of the old-Who. Just an episode here and there, or a full 'episode' of one particular title (It drives me crazy how one 'EPISODE' in old-Who is several half hour episodes, sometimes as many as eight or ten... I think they call it a 'serial' and the season is a series...

I do have some old Who DVDs I've been collecting, and haven't watched yet, because I've gotten Mark to watch and we are midway thru Tennant's second series... The only Baker I've seen is the one that followed his 2013 "Dr. Who Revisited" outing back in April, "The Pyramids of Mars" which I liked, but reminded me too much of Stargate which wasn't fair (of me). The story is considered one of Baker's best, so I will be interested to see what I think about how it fits in with the general show, and Baker's overall work.

I also have put Old-Who on the back burner because my next big thing this summer will be to begin Dark Shadows from Episode One. Mark got me the complete series last year for my birthday and I've only watched a couple episodes. The first six months or so, until Barnabas Collins shows up, is most a gothic romance about the governess, stolen pretty much from the lesser imitators of the Brontes, but I am determined to watch those early episodes anyway. :P

Looking up the episode reminded me that RTD had to rename UNIT because the UN didn't want to be associated with Who any more. So it became the UNified Intelligence Taskforce...
“You want weapons? We’re in a library! Books! The best weapons in the world!” — The Doctor, S2E2
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Dax
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Joined: March 16th, 2008, 3:48 pm

November 30th, 2013, 6:35 pm #24

The full Dark Shadows set... cool.

I have a couple of friends that bought the set-by-set releases, and (they don't watch a lot of current tv) have gone through the series TWICE, which is... wow. That's a lot.

I watched it for a few months, a daily syndicated run here... fun, but I don't remember a lot of it now...
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KMInfinity
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Joined: March 17th, 2008, 1:09 am

November 30th, 2013, 9:19 pm #25

I think it's 1200 plus episodes, but only 22 minutes each. And just now googling...Barnabas doesn't show up until episode 211. Crap.

So, 449 hours.

4 hours a week = more than 2 years. So I'm NOT finishing this in the summer. lol
“You want weapons? We’re in a library! Books! The best weapons in the world!” — The Doctor, S2E2
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blosslover
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December 17th, 2013, 2:00 am #26

Just wanted to share this from TUMBLR... I think it well explains the issues with Moff. Basically it is a genre clash...

Here is the beginning of the commentary:

I’ve been hemming and hawing about adding this comment to it, because it’s only half relevant. So here’s my half solution…

I feel like it’s because Moffat started his career writing sitcoms.

That’s not intended as an insult or an attack. Writing sitcoms is hard. Turning out something like Fawlty Towers or Dad’s Army… whoa. I couldn’t do it.

But it does require a rather different skillset to sci-fi drama, doesn’t it?

http://charamei.tumblr.com/post/6916141 ... ins-one-of
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Dax
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December 17th, 2013, 2:11 am #27

I don't know enough about Moffat's work (and NOTHING of his Dr. Who work, other than what I've read ABOUT, which is not the same as experiencing it), but I wouldn't say that you could point to every writer that started out in (another genre) and then went to another, and keep a solid classification bias going...

Matthew Weiner started out on Becker. So he's a sitcom writer...

Early credits of Charlie Kaufman are the Chris Elliot sitcom Get A Life, forgotten sitcom Ned & Stacey, and sketch shows The Edge and The Dana Carvey Show... not great predictors of what was to come (other than that Get A Life was also delightfully 'weird' and funny)...

Whedon on Roseanne... Okay, and Joss is 'funny', but not a 'sitcom writer'... but he WAS, so...

Last edited by Dax on December 17th, 2013, 2:12 am, edited 1 time in total.
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blosslover
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December 17th, 2013, 2:50 am #28

I get what you mean, but between this and the other article I think it hits a lot of my issues. For me it isn't that he wrote for sitcoms, just that sometimes he relies too much on things like the reset button, which is quite common in that genre. (And yes I remember Ned & Stacey, and Get a Life was great).

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KMInfinity
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December 17th, 2013, 9:50 pm #29

YES! Good insights in that article, Bloss. I think the "kick the plot into gear' sitcom trope is very much a Moff thing, and the idea of having the 'status quo' as the end result. Both of which I dislike heartily in DW. I agree it's not that a sitcom writer can't stretch to do other things or are trapped by sitcom writing patterns, but that MOFF is. the zygon plot is an EXCELLENT example because it is one of the very few missteps in the brilliant 50th anniversary show.
“You want weapons? We’re in a library! Books! The best weapons in the world!” — The Doctor, S2E2
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bilki
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December 26th, 2013, 1:12 am #30

Due to the Doctor Who marathon, I just got to watch The Day of the Doctor. Mixed feelings. As one who has occasionally wished Gallifrey was still in the picture, I must admit that I like the potential that has been opened up here. But, I kinda hate that he went back and re-wrote one of the defining moments in the Doctor's history. A very Moffat move, though, with so much of what he writes being happy ending-ish.

Now the comment about Zygon plot disappearing at the link you provided above, BL, makes sense.

Waiting for the Christmas special to start now.....
Last edited by bilki on December 26th, 2013, 1:16 am, edited 1 time in total.
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