Philip Callahan
Philip Callahan

February 1st, 2016, 6:36 pm #141

Considering that there are so many variables in determining whether Fighter A is better than Fighter B, it essentially becomes a lesson in futility. For example, it has become fodder for the martial arts masses to compare Bruce Lee to the point fighters of the 60's. The problem is that nobody seems comfortable picking a specific criteria for such comparisons. Examples include...

Would Bruce Lee have been a successful point fighter?

What would be the measure of success in the point fighting world?

Was Bruce Lee a better martial artist than the top point fighters of the 60's?

Was Bruce Lee a better street fighter than the top fighters of that era?

In regards to a no-holds barred fight, should Bruce only be compared to point fighters in or near his weight class?



Quote
Share

Davey
Davey

February 2nd, 2016, 5:15 am #142

That's much better than someone who keep saying this fella is no good, that fella isn't a fighter without providing any proof. Looks real silly.
When someone has no videos of them free sparring full contact all out & never will post one.......when someone has never been on the mat with a single elite world class grappler (but claims they would just use footwork, strike, bite etc to get out positions or stop takedowns).......when any videos they do have available show dry land swimming drills or a dummy standing taking shots or launching weak attacks for them to counter.....when any videos show no real evidence of power........when they train only with their own guys and don't seek out elite level grapplers Sambo Wrestling BJJ etc to train with or knife experts or people that are experts in counter terrorism and actually dealt with war or terrorist situations etc - then that person may be good or a fighter but the evidence remains dubious. If you are trained by people like that fine, though you should seek out specialists and experts in other areas too! Training in one art just with your own guys can give you a false sense of security, and awareness of what works and what doesn't i.e. you can have your own guys pretend to be a boxer, grappler or attack with knife and you defend no problem against them but try it with elite level people champion BJJ Black Belts, pro boxers, etc and you will see the difference! Anyone advocating you shouldn't do that or it won't improve you,instead best just to train with your own guys in one art you should question or just go out and do it yourself.

Who thinks Carter Hargrave, Tommy Carruthers, George Dillman, Emil Martirossian, Ashida Kim, Frank Dux, etc are world class martial artist or great fighters outside of their own organisation? Very few! If any were they would be universally acknowledged as such. Their Instructors or students think they are great, though so do people in most organisations regarding their Instructors or Heads. None of their students or Instructors appear to be very good or renowned worldwide either. Go train with these people or anyone else but :

1) Don't think one person has all the answers or experience for any possible self defence or conflict scenario e.g.most Instructors haven't dealt directly with terrorism or are Counter Terrorism experts, most haven't been in actual war conflict. Seek out people that have been or have experience or skills one person doesn't,there can be no rational reason not to do so.

2) Don't be fooled from a nice demo someone is a great martial artist or fighter. Jackie Chan is more athletic and a better athlete and could put on a better demo than any of the afore mentioned, doesn't mean he is a great fighter or self protection expert though, he doesn't claim to be either. Especially don't be fooled by demos with people dummies standing around getting hit or launching weak attacks that are easily countered.

3) Be highly sceptical of people or arts claiming to show you how to defend against grapplers, how to prevent takedowns or what to do if taken down, etc that have never trained with a single world class elite grappler and actually sparred all out against one. Be even more sceptical if they haven't done so and go on about BJJ, MMA are sports, on the street it is different you can do this or that, yes and so can they!Against a high level grappler or wrestler you can get taken down very hard and put in positions really fast that you can't easily strike from,if you don't bother to train with elite grapplers & spar them you won't know that and think you can just strike or bite your way out anything or use your footwork to avoid takedowns. Training with elite grapplers raises your game of course it does, you may or may not meet an elite grappler in the street it could be one with just average skills you meet but by training & sparring with elite grapplers you will be much better prepared than just training with your own guys. Same for knife defence, etc.
Quote
Share

Davey
Davey

February 2nd, 2016, 6:30 am #143

"What Jesse taught was very crude & basic,..."

Davey, I guess you didn´t mean it bad and I further guess you never met Jesse or work with one of his long term students. Well, I did and let me tell you, after more than 50 years, Jesse´s sticking was neither crude nor basic. It was very refined. He could perform with a lot of pressure, medium or no pressure at all and had been successful.

True is, his method was made for the averege student, as most of us are. When you see him teaching his students, what you see is what he gave each person at some stage of their developement. What he can do himself is beyond that.

To the " who is better than" stuff I will not comment.

Best regards
Jesse Glover was great at what he did, so was his brother Mike! Saying it was very crude and basic is not putting it down in anyway it is just saying what it actually was and very limited stuff too. Bruce Lee did not know the full Wing Chun system > Jesse Glover did not learn from him absolutely everything Bruce Lee knew in Wing Chun > Jesse as he stated himself adapted it to work for him and what he felt best would work for others nothing wrong with doing that. The material Jesse Glover, Howard Williams etc learned was very limited indeed that doesn't mean it was not effective or that you need more material to be effective. Such people spent the rest of their lives practicing and refining those basics or limited amount of techniques they learned, which is highly commendable. Regarding the limited nature of material, here is Lamar Davis on his experience of Howard Williams material :

''In 1998 I sponsored a seminar with original Bruce Lee/James Lee student, Sifu Howard Williams. I had heard many good things about Howard over the years, and had spent many hours talking to him on the phone about his experiences with Bruce Lee and James Lee, or Jimmy as he called him. I was really expecting great things from the seminar. I hate to say that I was more than a bit disappointed, as were the participants of the seminar. There wasn’t much material shown, and after one four hour afternoon of training, Howard had nothing left to teach the second day. There were a lot of complaints about the seminar, and several participants told me that if I had him back for another seminar, they would not be attending. This had only happened one other time with a seminar instructor, so needless to say, I was quite embarrassed for Howard. I never saw him again after that event, and he passed away a few years later.''

More techniques or material doesn't necessarily mean better but often limited material cannot deal with all combat situations or there are other things or training methods that can enhance your core techniques. Also if people using that limited material are only or mainly training with their own guys doing the same things...........

Here is Mike Lee, Jesse's brother :

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8nnynu2kPuY

Is that material Mike's doing crude and basic? Very much so, that does not mean he could not use it effectively.The power shots are telegraphed by a mile, etc.Mike probably trained harder in weights, cardio, strength training, fitness etc than Jesse did, doesn't mean he was better than Jesse both were great! Both were big guys and powerful. Bruce Lee refined & modified things greatly later on, had he worked with Mike Lee (as you see in the video above) in the early 70's of course he would have refined things, showed modifications and new material.

Jesse's trapping was very crude that is not a put down or insult, he wasn't an athlete of Bruce Lee's level, he did what worked for him & modified it to be used by anyone. Bruce Lee did not know the full Wing Chun system, what Bruce did know Jesse did not learn all of it. In Chi Sau he learned limited material, attacks, counters, positions, etc > compare to a Wing Chun Masters Chi Sao that knows the full system or to Dan Inosanto's. Someone can practice the basics and limited attacks, counters etc and become very good at it - better to do that than learn lots more but not be too good at any of it or not practice it extensively. With limited Chi Sau, you will find the best Wing Chun people have attacks and counters etc you do not know and that you have no defence for.Jesse was right some Wing Chun people aren't that good even Masters but for certain there are some who are! Dan Inosanto has had nearly 10 Wing Chun Master teachers instruct him, he's trained or trained with nearly all well known Bruce Lee students, he was with Bruce Lee the longest and the only one allowed to teach by Bruce Lee (Chinatown classes), he has also met many people from the earlier period before he met Bruce and seen what they know and can do including Jesse, he also knows how Bruce modified things & why he did so in Chi Sao, Trapping etc.If you practice Non Classical Gung Fu as Jesse termed it, someone like Dan Inosanto can improve your skills and show further material that will enhance the skills you already have, he can show why Bruce modified things and why he discarded certain things. Dan is modest but he is obviously better than Ron Balicki, Paul Vunak, etc at trapping and they are all very good at it, Ron etc would have no problem saying Dan is in a different league from them. Bear in mind Vunak met and trained with Jesse Glover,William Cheung, etc and Ron Balicki was also a student of renowned Wing Chun Master Randy Williams.

If you choose to do only or mainly the early material Bruce Lee taught, you can for sure develop high skill level with it and be able to apply it. No doubt Jesse and Mike Lee were very skilled at what they did, they were both big guys physically stronger than your average person and could pack a punch. Though there is a wealth of material out there that can enhance your skills and you are free to select what you add or don't add. Jesse, Mike Lee's, Howard Williams, etc striking, Chi Sau etc was very crude and basic again not an insult at all they did what worked for them and what they felt could be used effectively and taught to others.













Quote
Share

Philip Callahan
Philip Callahan

February 2nd, 2016, 9:48 pm #144

When someone has no videos of them free sparring full contact all out & never will post one.......when someone has never been on the mat with a single elite world class grappler (but claims they would just use footwork, strike, bite etc to get out positions or stop takedowns).......when any videos they do have available show dry land swimming drills or a dummy standing taking shots or launching weak attacks for them to counter.....when any videos show no real evidence of power........when they train only with their own guys and don't seek out elite level grapplers Sambo Wrestling BJJ etc to train with or knife experts or people that are experts in counter terrorism and actually dealt with war or terrorist situations etc - then that person may be good or a fighter but the evidence remains dubious. If you are trained by people like that fine, though you should seek out specialists and experts in other areas too! Training in one art just with your own guys can give you a false sense of security, and awareness of what works and what doesn't i.e. you can have your own guys pretend to be a boxer, grappler or attack with knife and you defend no problem against them but try it with elite level people champion BJJ Black Belts, pro boxers, etc and you will see the difference! Anyone advocating you shouldn't do that or it won't improve you,instead best just to train with your own guys in one art you should question or just go out and do it yourself.

Who thinks Carter Hargrave, Tommy Carruthers, George Dillman, Emil Martirossian, Ashida Kim, Frank Dux, etc are world class martial artist or great fighters outside of their own organisation? Very few! If any were they would be universally acknowledged as such. Their Instructors or students think they are great, though so do people in most organisations regarding their Instructors or Heads. None of their students or Instructors appear to be very good or renowned worldwide either. Go train with these people or anyone else but :

1) Don't think one person has all the answers or experience for any possible self defence or conflict scenario e.g.most Instructors haven't dealt directly with terrorism or are Counter Terrorism experts, most haven't been in actual war conflict. Seek out people that have been or have experience or skills one person doesn't,there can be no rational reason not to do so.

2) Don't be fooled from a nice demo someone is a great martial artist or fighter. Jackie Chan is more athletic and a better athlete and could put on a better demo than any of the afore mentioned, doesn't mean he is a great fighter or self protection expert though, he doesn't claim to be either. Especially don't be fooled by demos with people dummies standing around getting hit or launching weak attacks that are easily countered.

3) Be highly sceptical of people or arts claiming to show you how to defend against grapplers, how to prevent takedowns or what to do if taken down, etc that have never trained with a single world class elite grappler and actually sparred all out against one. Be even more sceptical if they haven't done so and go on about BJJ, MMA are sports, on the street it is different you can do this or that, yes and so can they!Against a high level grappler or wrestler you can get taken down very hard and put in positions really fast that you can't easily strike from,if you don't bother to train with elite grapplers & spar them you won't know that and think you can just strike or bite your way out anything or use your footwork to avoid takedowns. Training with elite grapplers raises your game of course it does, you may or may not meet an elite grappler in the street it could be one with just average skills you meet but by training & sparring with elite grapplers you will be much better prepared than just training with your own guys. Same for knife defence, etc.
DAVEY: To be fair to someone like Tommy Carruthers, how many "world class" grapplers spar with "world class" martial artists from striking systems? Outside of MMA matches, I don't see many examples of the two systems going at it in a sparring context. Part of the reason is that the grappling arts can spar all-out whereas the sriking arts have to employ protective gear. One can use Bruce Lee as a prime example of the vast differences in training philosophies.

According to "world class" grappler Gene Lebell, his training sessions with Bruce consisted of the two men rolling on the mat to practice holds/chokes, but they did not spar all-out in regards to striking techinques. Bruce would show Gene a punch or a kick, and then Gene would hit a focus pad or glove. IMO, it is about the fighter, not the system.
Quote
Share

Philip Callahan
Philip Callahan

February 3rd, 2016, 3:07 am #145

Never mentioned Lamar Davis in my post that you responded to, regarding serving on the doors 20 years I know people that have done it that long & longer and they say it taught them most about the psychology of people and awareness for spotting potential conflict. What they did not do was have regular fights or use much other than restraining people. With CCTV everywhere now inside and outside clubs & bars, people with mobile phones that can record things, multiple witnesses etc having fights or laying into people with strikes is simply not done - you will be fired from your position and face legal consequences. Often there is more than one bouncer certainly at bigger venues they can restrain individuals without repeatedly striking them or getting into 1 on 1 fights. Sometimes people are drunk or on drugs that start trouble that would never normally do so or walk in perfectly calm. Years on the doors is highly commendable but you aren't getting in all out fights often or unleashing your full arsenal on them and often have help from other bouncers to restrain or eject people. As you mentioned Lamar Davis, here are excerpts from Paula Inosanto's letter (all backed by Dan Inosanto who approved everything in it) :

http://www.martialartskoncepts.com/html ... source.htm

Jerry Beasley, Tommy Carruthers, Lamar Davis, Emil Martirossian, etc are all legit martial artists (Carter Hargrave not sure who he has trained with if anyone that knew Bruce Lee?) - they have all studied with people that knew Bruce Lee, their Jeet Kune Do backgrounds and actual knowledge & how long they actually trained with people that knew Bruce Lee remain questionable to many. None can know as much as Dan Inosanto & only Dan was authorised by Bruce Lee to teach (most of the Chinatown classes) - these people have all trained with Dan very briefly. Had Tommy Carruthers or Carter Hargrave been well known then, it is likely they would have been mentioned in Paula Inosanto's letter also. Not aware of any renowned well known Instructors under Lamar, Carruthers, Martirossian, Hargrave, etc, they may have taught some but not aware of them - if anyone knows any post some links. Dan Inosanto taught all the Chinatown guys he taught most of the classes then after Bruce died he continued teaching many of them some of whom had big holes in their knowledge from when Bruce Lee was alive. Dan's Instructors like Paul Vunak, Erik Paulson, Burton Richardson, Rick Young, Ron Balicki, etc are all renowned. Those doing Jeet Kune Do that do not seek out Dan Inosanto to extensively train with, you have to wonder why as he was the only one authorised to teach by Bruce Lee and actively doing it whilst he was alive and he trained with Bruce Lee the longest. Unless you know JKD inside & out, Dan will never certify you.

Regarding grappling, if you've never been on the mat with a BJJ Black Belt champion, renowned Judo expert, Sambo champion, etc - you'll never really know what works & what doesn't against them. Saying you will stop them grabbing you with strikes or finish them or if taken down you will strike and get to your feet is very naive indeed, many grapplers have ridiculous strength and welcome your strikes as they close on you, if they have to take some to get you down they are fine with it. You can quickly be in a position where you cannot strike effectively or escape and get to your feet - unless you get on the mat with an elite grappler you won't know these things. Many in Jeet Kune Do, Wing Chun & other arts are living in fantasy land on how they defend against grapplers because they've never once trained and sparred all out with world class elite grapplers. All Dan Inosanto's Instructors are highly skilled in grappling and have trained with elite grapplers & some of Dan's people have competed in MMA, BJJ, etc. If you face anyone skilled in grappling on the street and all you have is original JKD or traditional Wing Chun or Tae Kwon Do etc then you have major problems, same if you face someone skilled in Filipino arts and they have a knife, etc.

Wrestling vs Wing Chun :

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5Vd-KAuN97o It would be same for original JKD people that have never sparred and trained with elite world class grapplers.












DAVEY: Again, your knowledge about certain issues pertaining to Bruce Lee/JKD instructors is limited. Not only did you include Lamar Davis in your psuedo-hit list, your claims regarding the CONTEXT of Paula Inosanto's letter are erroneous. The following is a link to the backstory of Paula's attempt at a power grab.

http://aikia.net/wordpress/inosanto-letter-truth/
Quote
Share

Joined: January 3rd, 2018, 7:11 pm

January 3rd, 2018, 7:17 pm #146

Everybody has their opinions on who are great fighters. Bill Wallace was undefeated in his sport. Another who reveals privately Wall seems to talk negatively about Bruce.


I really don't think Wall was really talking negative about Bruce. I don't know when Wall said this to Wallace. In terms of that era, Bruce didn't really know how to fight due to Wall's, Wallace's, Lewis's definition of fighting--professionally meaning scoring, hence the saying of timing and distance of it. Bruce had a lot of respect for Wall. Bruce introduce them to martial art, all out fight. what's the point of fighting if it's not all out whatever goes. etc. just my opinion.
Quote
Like
Share

Joined: January 17th, 2014, 1:19 am

January 6th, 2018, 12:32 am #147

Joe Rogan isn't the main man on all things martial but what he says is true, there are a lot of phony people out there teaching stuff that is not only impractical but some aren't even very skilled at what they do. Nobody is claiming Tommy Carruthers, Emil Martirossian, etc are phony just that they aren't great martial artists and it is silly to claim they are, the only people that appear to do so are not surprisingly their students or Instructors or people that have watched many martial arts movie and maybe believe Jean Claude Van Damme, Jet Li, etc are the best in the world also.

Bas Rutten has done many different arts and has fought in MMA & had many a street fight some well documented whilst he recommends arts like Krav Maga for self defence especially as he mentions it can be learned fast, not everything he does regarding self defence is from Krav Maga. Worth considering also not all Krav Maga is the same, just as all Wing Chun isn't - the approaches of Itay Gil, Amir Perets (Bas Rutten's friend) etc differ a lot from the commercial civilian stuff you see taught, Military Krav Maga you rarely see taught to civilians.

Joe Rogan isn't claiming everyone that teaches self defence is a phony, he is just saying there are many out there who are or that there background and claims are suspect to say the least e.g.

1)http://www.britishkravmagaassociation.c ... -html.html

2)http://cheungswingchuntruth.blogspot.co.uk/

3)http://ashidakimexposed.blogspot.co.uk/

^ These are people with schools worldwide,books and DVD's out,that have been on magazine covers,on TV programmes, etc.


People like Frank Dux claimed they fought in secret tournaments, the film 'Bloodsport' with Van Damme was based on him, others claim things like winner of 300 no rules street fights, etc - none of these claims they can substantiate. Train with people with backgrounds and claims that check out,and train with high level people in different arts not to learn entire arts but to have a good idea of what works and what doesn't against a skilled opponent e.g. nobody has come out with a list of world renowned grapplers Tommy Carruthers has been on the mat with. Thinking how what you do can deal with other arts or scenarios is good but you have to go out and train with exceptional people in those arts to really know what works and what doesn't beyond the theoretical stage. Having your friend in a class trying to take you down or pretending to be a grappler, is different than facing a real experienced one.

If you train with Tommy Carruthers, Emil Martirossian, etc - then go along to a good MMA gym for a while and seek out renowned specialists in self defence with verifiable backgrounds. What have you got to lose? Thinking Tommy or Emil, etc one man has the answers to everything or is all you need for reality based self defence is very naive indeed or thinking their experience in martial arts and self defence is so much more comprehensive than others again is very naive indeed.
Surprisingly it sounds like Rogan is watching this scene for the first time.
Quote
Like
Share

Joined: July 16th, 2003, 11:43 am

July 22nd, 2018, 12:09 am #148

Quote
Like
Share

Joined: December 19th, 2017, 9:38 pm

July 22nd, 2018, 2:17 pm #149

It is a bit puzzling why Tommy C. never did any alive sparring. He only did staged demos against his own students. Does he look 'fast'. Sure. Did Jesse Glover say he was fast? Yes.

But being fast in a linear dimension against your own students does not necessarily equate to being good at 'fighting'. I suspect, but have no real evidence, that the reason Tommy did not show actual sparring was that he was not even close to being as good as he was in a staged demo and he chose not to film it. Maybe he rationalized it by saying wearing gloves messed up his moves. I don't know.

I don't think any of the people mentioned above filmed themselves against a similarly skilled (even if different skills) against a resisting opponent. Not Dan; not Ron B., not Jesse (who I think is a wonderful person), with the possible exception of Paul Vunak. We know that Vunak had issues, so he's a bit of a wild card. 

I'm not sure of the point of the post of the video above from Tommy, so I'm just responding to the posts above it from 2016.
Quote
Like
Share

Joined: November 12th, 2017, 1:06 pm

July 23rd, 2018, 12:36 pm #150

[quote="badger01j"]
I'm not sure of the point of the post of the video above from Tommy,[/quote]

Are you kidding? 😀
Isn t that very easy to understand?

His point goes against knife/weapon defences, especially taught in Krav Maga and some other self defence styles.
In 2008, Tommys forum was still open for anybody, and i did post a subject back then. In 2007, the step father of my best friend, a taxi driver by profession, was stabbed by a junkie and he had much luck that he survived.

I did ask Tommy what he thinks of defences against knifes, and he wrote something like knife defences are 100% BS, don t matter if they get taught by Krav Maga Instructors or anybody else. If someone is really [b]willing[/b] to stab you, the only way to defend this is run away or if you are a very fast/powerfull striker try to land one devastating blow, but never try to grab the knife and disable the way those instructors shows you in class or on Youtube.
Quote
Like
Share