Joined: July 16th, 2003, 11:43 am

January 28th, 2016, 1:38 pm #131

Nowhere did you manage to quote Jesse Glover saying that he did not feel William Cheung was that good. Jesse felt not many in Wing Chun could really apply it practically, it is same for any art some train hard and work it under real pressure whilst others don't. William Cheung and Jesse Glover did Chi Sau and Cheung was all over him, Cheung said he thought what he did was crude and limited but still effective just not against the most skilled of Wing Chun people. Not sure if Jesse ever mentioned that in interviews but it was witnessed by numerous people, maybe like some of the Karate guys that sparred with Bruce Lee they have amnesia about it ever happening. The claims of others like James Demile that later people had weak trapping or Bruce began to leave out important things so they could never reach his level are not true and just for self publicity, besides people like Dan Inosanto, etc have trained with Jesse Glover and others from the earlier period and experienced what they do. Bear in mind also Dan Inosanto has trained with several renowned Wing Chun people :

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZL1JTnZEw0o

Many in Wing Chun are firmly stuck in a Classical Mess as Bruce Lee would term it, same also for many Aikido people, many in old school or original Jeet Kune Do, Tae Kwon Do, etc. Though there are those in those arts who aren't and are very good at what they do, and have worked with other skilled people in other arts. Just ask many of those people in Aikido or original JKD which elite people trained in BJJ, Sambo, Greco Roman, etc they have been on the mat trained and sparred with, and tried their grappling defences against? Or ask how many elite level Filipino martial artists have they trained with to try out their stick or knife defence on? Or top MMA people they have trained and sparred with? Sitting in a neat protective shell training only with your own guys, pontificating how what you do would deal with a skilled grappler or someone trained in knife fighting is fantasy la la land and gives you a false sense of security. MMA is becoming more popular thus chances increase someone you fight at a local bar or in the street may have training in it, or just be skilled at grappling and BJJ, which is better sitting in that neat protective shell training only with your own guys none of whom are renowned in the martial arts community or seeking out high level MMA people to train with? The answer is obvious! You go to places like Philippines chances are a street attacker may have had some training in Filipino arts like Kali, not everyone there has trained in arts but certainly chance if you have an encounter they will be - better to stay in your neat protective shell with your classical mess or get out there and train with elite Filipino martial artists? Someone using old school Jeet Kune Do or traditional Wing Chun unarmed would be a gift to someone with even moderate skill at using a knife in Kali,if they trained with elite Filipino martial artists they would be aware of that! A Traditional Wing Chun person standing face on flat footed is a gift to any grappler trying to take them down, if they trained with elite grapplers they would realise that. Someone with even moderate skill who has not trained extensively in Kali will do attacks with stick or knife you are not prepared for, slashing at your wrists as you punch, slashing the inside of your thighs just standing or if you try kick which causes serious blood loss fast. You don't need to train for years in systems or devote your life to them but you better at least have been on the mat with high level MMA, BJJ, Sambo, Wrestlers etc as opposed to have stayed in a neat protective shell with just your own guys none of whom are renowned in the martial arts community.
I spoke to William Cheung in the early `80's,and yes,he said that Lee was not very good.But he last saw him as a skinny teen in the mid-50's.At that time,Cheung was fighting for the WC clan,and Lee was in awe of him.That's what he remembers. (GT)

Jesse posted on that forum and I'm not going through hundreds of posts looking for it. I was copying them all out months back and lost them. I will probably do it some time as they are great.

"My first WC instructor (WSL) told me that Jesse has a unmovable tan that one cannot pak it at all regardless how strong you are. How many people can do this? Other well-known WC instructors whom I will not mention here also have a good opinion of Jesse's WC ability though they may disagree with his training methods. It is hard to appreciate the greatness of the man until you meet him face to face and see what he offers first."

David Peterson: I know Jesse very well, was invited by him to give seminars in the WSL Method in Seattle, and have trained with he and his students. Jesse Glover is a formidable fighter whose techniques are both powerful and precise. Sure, his training methods are very different from what many of you might have experienced, and perhaps you may not agree with them, or with some of the techniques/concepts he employs, but the bottom line is that they work, and he produces students with excellent skills. What Jesse is saying about WC is entirely accurate when taken in the context of which it was written. On top of this, his quote from my late Sifu is absolutley accurate as I have heard Sifu make this remark on several occasions. WC is like the finest car, or the most delicate scientific instrument. It is perfect science in every respect, but how many of you would put a young inexperienced driver in that car or place the scientific instrument in the hands of a child and expect good results from your actions? There is much in the WC system that most of us will NEVER fully understand, and even more (in terms of techniques and/or concepts) that we will NEVER have either a need or an opportunity to apply. Most of us will NEVER live a life that requires us to put our skills on the line on a regular, even semi-regular basis....in fact, how many of you can honestly say that you have faced a life-and-death situation and survived it purely based on your WC skills? Lets get real about the whole WC experience. In reality, most of those pursuing the art have NOT been in such a situation, and most of those involved have NOT really experienced what I would refer to as "reality-type" training, whereby on a regular basis, you pit yourself and your students against full-on, aggressive and UNREHEARSED attacks from practitioners of other systems, with the intention to hurt them if they get it wrong. Instead, from what I have observed (and Jesse is speaking of the same reality), what is normally practised in the majority of WC schools are pre-arranged drills with WC techniques being pitted against WC techniques, usually without the "venom" and the psychological pressure (to elicit the necessary "adrenaline dump" that real combat creates), thus giving the students a very false sense of security as to how effective their "skills" will be in the actual "Pavement Arena." The safety net that the four walls of the training area offer is the main culprit for the escalation of ineffective WC that is being taught around the world today. People are trapped in their theories and concepts, bound up by this sequence and that, and have failed to look beyond the "fixed ideas" to discover how WC is meant to offer a guide to self-discovery whereby one "...becomes the MASTER of Wing Chun, and NOT its SLAVE"....look at how Wong Shun Leung reached his level of expertise and understanding, a level that virtually all on this forum have expressed a respect and admiration for. He tested himself UNDER PRESSURE in the real world, not once or twice but DOZENS of times. He didn't spend endless hours in Chi Sau practise, developing endless responses to artificially created and over-analyzed sequences, ...he took the concepts, tested them, refined them down to the most simple alternatives and USED his WC as an effective TOOL to get a job done. When Jesse says that Chi Sau doesn't work in a fight, he's RIGHT, because the way in which most WC practitioners apply it means that it can't be effective. You don't fight your opponent with Chi Sau, ...you USE the skills, reflexes and flexibilty that Chi Sau is meant to develop in order to HIT the other guy, not to "stick" with him or "chase" his hands. Chi Sau, like all the drills, techniques, concepts and forms in WC are a means to an end, NOT the end itself. If Jesse's article makes you depressed, then get off your butt and start training for reality. If you are sitting there complacently, expecting that no matter what happens, "It's okay, my Wing Chun will save the day", then get a grip on reality. Don't take me out of context either, ...I'm not advocating that we throw the baby out with the bath water....you won't find a more loyal devotee of WC than me. The WC system IS a great system of personal combat, but there are lots of other great systems of personal combat out there and chances are that you'll end up fighting them, not one of your own. Don't get blinded by the theory and the forms, UNDERSTAND the message that they are giving you and learn to be flexible and adaptable in applying this knowledge. The reality is that much of what is in the system IS NOT APPLIED EXACTLY AS IT IS TRAINED, any more so than reading a book about swimming can teach you how to swim....you have to jump in the pol and get wet, APPLY the theories to the reality, not just expect them to work like it says in the book. This was the message of my Sifu, this is what Jesse is trying to say....stop attacking the messenger and read the message. If I've offended anyone, no offence was intended and I apologise, but if you have understood what I'm trying to convey, then all the power to you and just watch your WC improve in all the best possible ways. Best Wishes to All.

http://www.kungfumagazine.com/forum/arc ... 18249.html
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Joined: July 16th, 2003, 11:43 am

January 28th, 2016, 1:46 pm #132

Jesse Glover sadly isn't here anymore, though what he did was certainly crude and basic but it worked for him, claims he was better than Chinatown guys are silly and irrelevant. It also shows you have limited knowledge of Wing Chun, there are attacks etc in Chi Sao that Jesse would have been unable to defend against. Jesse Glover met William Cheung, you really think when they did Chi Sau he was all over Cheung? He wasn't and you can ask Cheung himself, he thought Jesse's trapping and Chi Sau was very limited , crude and basic but could still be used effectively just not against the most skilled of Wing Chun people. Jesse felt that not many in Wing Chun could really apply the art effectively but that some could.

''I'll let you work out why that was and it wasn't by collecting more techniques. It was about refining and developing basic skills e.g. footwork, distance, timing, speed, combinations and being better than anyone else at these skills.'' - standing in Bai Jong, using finger jabs or straight leads, low side kicks....... is very predictable indeed, those aren't the only techniques but they are commonly used. Standing face on in Wing Chun using straight blast, low kicks, getting close........is very predictable. Becoming the best you can be is developing all your attributes as you mentioned whilst training with the best people in other arts, not learning entire arts if you don't want to but getting on the mat with a top Sambo, BJJ person, a pro Boxer, pro MMA fighter....... To not do so means you are living in fantasy la la la land pontificating what you would do against people skilled in grappling, Muay Thai, etc, there are people in many arts that do just that have people do lame attacks pretending they are a boxer, grappler, etc and they can easily defend against them because they are not very skilled or world renowned specialists in their art. Many Wing Chun people have never sparred or trained with a pro Boxer, to know what does and doesn't work and to know how they react when they get repeatedly hit in the head with hard punches. Many Jeet Kune Do old school or original haven't for example been on the mat with world class level grapplers - a Sambo champion, BJJ, etc. If Tommy Carruthers, Lamar Davis have - name those elite level grapplers? Going against a knife unarmed is hard to do, doing that against someone highly skilled or even moderately trained even more so, name some top Filipino martial arts those sort of people have trained with? Training with world class people in other arts for certain raises your game, and gives you real feedback on what you can and cannot do against them, again you don't need to learn entire arts or devote your life to them. Sticking with just your own guys, not seeking out the best in other arts to train with means you are likely living in la la fantasy land - none of Tommy Carruthers Instructors or students seem very good and none are renowned in the martial arts world. Dan Inosanto has trained Erik Paulson, Ron Balicki, Paul Vunak, Burton Richardson..........all renowned in the martial arts community and well known, how many people have Tommy Carruthers, Lamar Davis etc trained that are renowned? Same for Emil Martirossian or Carter Hargrave who have they trained that is renowned in the martial arts community?
Talk to any great fighter, Joe Lewis, Muhammad Ali, Bruce Lee and they all agreed what separated the great from the rest was mobility and being able to move better than anyone else. Footwork and simplicity was key whatever style.

You better provide some evidence of William Cheung beating Jesse at Chi Sau other than Cheung's mouth. He said Bruce was not good at WC. WSL said Bruce was good at chi sau. Who do you believe? WSL - Bruce's main WC instructor or Cheung who claimed only he knew the real Yip Man WC system LOL.
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Davey
Davey

January 28th, 2016, 10:36 pm #133


Jesse Glover is not here anymore but to say he was better or tougher than any of the Chinatown guys is getting very silly! Dan Inosanto the main Instructor at Chinatown studied with Bruce Lee the longest, after Bruce's passing he also studied with several renowned Wing Chun masters, Dan also saw Jesse Glover and what he could do. Of course there would have been Wing Chun masters that would have been all over Jesse at Chi Sau, & someone like Dan Inosanto of course was better but so what? Jesse did Judo too and taught some to Bruce, any Olympic level Judo champion would have wiped the floor with him at strict Judo. It doesn't mean Jesse wasn't good at Chi Sau or Judo or that he wasn't a good fighter, it is more the difference of a Floyd Mayweather & Muhammad Ali at Boxing compared to any pro MMA fighter at strictly Boxing hands only and the difference is vast. Holly Holm is way better at Boxing than Ronda Rousey as proven with her Boxing fight record and from their fight, Ronda is way better at Judo than Holly they are aspects of overall fighting and strategy got Holly the win. I'm sure Jesse could dominate in Chi Sau against many people as you mentioned, his Judo was probably decent too he was a big strong guy but he wasn't better at Chi Sao than all the Chinatown guys especially Dan, & some Wing Chun people were better, nor was his Judo as good as Hayward Nishioka's, World Champions, Olympic athletes, etc. Jesse was tough and because someone was better at Chi Sau, Judo, etc doesn't mean they could have beaten him in a no rules fight. Dan Inosanto could overwhelm Paul Vunak, Burton Richardson, Ron Balicki, Rick Young, Erik Paulson, etc at free sparring, chi sau or anything - just ask them or they've said it in interviews already, they are all very tough guys! Dan doesn't present himself as a fighter, in the sense of the image Bruce Lee or Joe Lewis had, and Dan admits he doesn't have Bruce Lee's talent nor has he seen anyone that has and is a different person e.g. Bruce had a temper or could slap people in training for getting things wrong or not paying attention, Dan is just not like that. But don't mistake that for Dan somehow can't fight or isn't functional, again just ask Paul Vunak, etc for their experiences sparring with him, etc. Dan Inosanto is phenomenal in his own right. I've even heard people say Tim Tackett, Chris Kent, etc know JKD inside out but Dan doesn't or he doesn't teach it, which is ridiculous beyond words when Dan taught them almost everything they know.

Regarding Cheung doing Chi Sau with Jesse Glover ask Cheung, or ask witnesses not listing them all just look at photos of them together at seminars and you can ask people that were there too. Cheung has said he doubted few if anyone in the world could have beaten Bruce Lee in a fight especially at his weight, have not seen him say Bruce was not good at WC but he has said he did not know the full system. You make it sound like Dan Inosanto, William Cheung, etc that met and did seminars with Jesse never touched hands with him or were afraid to do so lol. Have never seen Jesse Glover say anything negative about William Cheung, WSL, Dan Inosanto, etc. Jesse never claimed he knew the full Wing Chun system or that he knew Jeet Kune Do or everything Dan Inosanto did because he wasn't there at the time, he was one of the most honest people Bruce Lee taught! Had Jesse claimed Bruce taught him how to master the one inch punch, or Dim Mak, etc - he could have sold out seminars teaching those things but he never ever did he was always honest about what he learned from Bruce Lee, and he never tried to pass off things he learned after Bruce Lee died as coming direct from Bruce Lee. So it would surprise me if he ever as you claim said negative things about William Cheung, when Jesse's books give praise to Cheung and WSL; if he ever had said such things direct to Cheung or said them in interviews then they later met up at seminar or event, I've no doubt someone like Cheung would have called him out on it! William Cheung was more an athlete and trained harder than some of Ip Man's students like Hawkins Cheung, etc.Look at Cheung's physique in his prime compared to many of them for an indication of how hard he trained.

Tommy Carruthers students & Instructors think he is really good, so do Emil Martirossian's, Carter Hargrave's etc. What they have in common is few serious renowned martial artists regard them as such. Tommy Carruthers and Emil Martirossian have both trained with Dan Inosanto, do you think Dan or his top people thought my goodness this guy is as good or better than Bruce Lee? Another thing common amongst these sort of people is they train generally only amongst themselves, none of their students or Instructors are very good and none are renowned in the martial arts community or even known. None of these people have ever claimed they were great martial artists or fighters and someone like Emil would know fine well after training at Dan's academy that many are way out of his league, if Tommy ever went there and trained he'd find out the same but would improve from there.

Unlike the afore mentioned (Tommy, Emil, Carer, etc) people like Dan Inosanto have renowned students & Instructors - Rick Faye, Paul Vunak, Erik Paulson, Yori Nakamura, Rick Young, Ron Balicki, Burton Richardson, etc. Some of them have competed in MMA, Shootfighting, BJJ etc. All of them have trained with renowned specialists in different arts, the best there is; not just training with their own guys like Emil, Tommy, Carter etc do. You can stay in a nice protective bubble only training with your own guys or seek out the best, the latter obviously means potential for growth is greater and that you have walked the walk experiencing going up against high level people in different arts to really know in practical terms beyond the hypothetical what works and what does not. You can stick with your own guys, and have someone try to take you down or grapple you and you defend it but it is nothing like going up against an elite level grappler, same for knife fighting or anything else. By sticking to a small group of people not a single one of whom is a renowned martial artist gives you a false sense of security, many martial artists have unfortunately developed that. Just look at some traditional Wing Chun people standing upright in traditional stance telling you how to defend against a grappler, yet like Tommy Carruthers they've never been on the mat with any elite world class grapplers to see what works and what doesn't beyond theory or trying it against your own guys none of whom are very good. Bai Jong in JKD and traditional Wing Chun stances are a gift to any good grappler and they don't care if you land a shot or two as they take you down. Saying you could use footwork to avoid a take down or grappling lol, again try it with a world class one and then see. Same for example defending against rear Muay Thai kick from a powerful kicker, if you cannot get out the way with footwork or are in an area where that is not possible or your reactions are slower and you get taken by surprise, you do what in original JKD when that kick is coming direct to your ribs? Traditional Wing Chun people use arms to block such a kick, or even double palm these work great training with their own guys but if they attempted them against a pro Thai Boxer that could kick really hard they would get a wake up call - bruised arms or hands at least, probably broken [see video below].

There are no videos of Tommy Carrthers free sparring nothing prearranged or a live dummy moving around waiting to get hit. He has never once been on the mat with a BJJ Black Belt or Champion and sparred or an elite Sambo, Greco Roman, etc person. If you ask him to put up a video showing him free sparring all out against anyone good (non edited and not brief few seconds), then look out for the many excuses why he won't do so. He only trains with his own guys, none of whom are renowned in the martial arts community. Dan Inosanto and his Instructors etc aren't in awe of people like Tommy Carruthers, Emil Martirossian, Carter Hargrave, etc. Tommy Carruthers or Carter Hargrave would never go now to Dan's academy in LA to learn or go there and claim they are JKD experts that know everything about the art, they can stay in their nice protective bubble training only with their own guys who think they are great and know everything there is to know about JKD. When people like Tommy, Emil. or Carter etc are telling you or insinuating all you need in martial arts you can get from them or that you can develop all aspects of your game by sticking to training just with their own guys, that doesn't mean you have to believe them or stick exclusively to that. Anyone telling you or advocating not to go train with elite grapplers, top knife people, MMA champions, etc or that it will somehow be detrimental to your development as a martial artist - run a mile! If you don't run, again you do not need to stick to what they advocate or believe somehow they have everything you need. You don't need to learn full arts if time or interest does not permit but at least go train with elite people in different arts - there can be no logical rational reason not to unless you are in a Classical Mess.

Many elite level grapplers would be more than happy to spar with Tommy or any of his guys, in a non challenging manner just to show him or his guys how easy someone can get taken down and how hard it is to get to your feet or strike from certain positions with a skilled grappler. They'd be more than happy to put on Goggles and see how many times you can hit their eyes. Same for traditional Wing Chun people, grapplers or MMA people etc would be more than happy to spar with them. Dan Inosanto's Instructors have all been there and done it against renowned people in diferent arts, some have competed in MMA and BJJ. Some Wing Chun people are aware a good grappler can get them down easily if they stick to traditional Wing Chun movements, stance and footwork so they have modified or added things. Others stay in their nice protective bubbles with their own guys and have defences against grappling, knives, Muay Thai, etc. Which approach do you think is better? Going out there and doing it with elite people in different arts, or sticking to your own group of guys?

Wing Chun Master Wong regarding dealing with wrestlers and reality:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5Vd-KAuN97o

Whilst you can see many others in Wing Chun training just with their own guys thinking they can easily stop a good grappler using traditional Wing Chun standing in those funny stances flat footed, body upright, often weight on back leg or split. You can even hear some Wing Chun people claim what I can do with Chi Sao standing I can easily do from my back if taken down, yes they can staying in that protective bubble with their own guys.

Traditional Wing Chun vs Muay Thai :

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zpRWtYC9HOI

That was a Wing Chun instructor, imagine if that was on the street and no rules life and death. The Wing Chun Instructor trained only with his own guys, had he trained with top Muay Thai people he would have had a better idea how to deal with it and not top stand flat footed which limits mobility. A good grappler would have easily taken him down too or MMA person, had he trained with elite people he would raise his game and have a better sense of what works and what doesn't, and not have such a false sense of security his art can deal with any situation or style.

Don't be like that Wing Chun vs Muay Thai video guy staying in a protective bubble training only with your own guys thinking your original JKD will save the day whatever happens. Go out there and train with elite people. Standing in Bai Jong side on is a gift to a grappler to take you down, or for a Thai Boxer to hit your lead leg, whatever your footwork is like you cannot avoid everything, a skilled grappler can close very fast and take you down with great force that alone on the street will cause injury or knock the wind out of you. They don't care about your side kicks or finger jabs they'll happily take them whilst closing the gap and getting their hands on you, besides some can't hit that hard off lead tools and their rear tools especially leg is further back standing in Bai Jong.




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January 28th, 2016, 10:37 pm #134

Talk to any great fighter, Joe Lewis, Muhammad Ali, Bruce Lee and they all agreed what separated the great from the rest was mobility and being able to move better than anyone else. Footwork and simplicity was key whatever style.

You better provide some evidence of William Cheung beating Jesse at Chi Sau other than Cheung's mouth. He said Bruce was not good at WC. WSL said Bruce was good at chi sau. Who do you believe? WSL - Bruce's main WC instructor or Cheung who claimed only he knew the real Yip Man WC system LOL.
Jesse Glover is not here anymore but to say he was better or tougher than any of the Chinatown guys is getting very silly! Dan Inosanto the main Instructor at Chinatown studied with Bruce Lee the longest, after Bruce's passing he also studied with several renowned Wing Chun masters, Dan also saw Jesse Glover and what he could do. Of course there would have been Wing Chun masters that would have been all over Jesse at Chi Sau, & someone like Dan Inosanto of course was better but so what? Jesse did Judo too and taught some to Bruce, any Olympic level Judo champion would have wiped the floor with him at strict Judo. It doesn't mean Jesse wasn't good at Chi Sau or Judo or that he wasn't a good fighter, it is more the difference of a Floyd Mayweather & Muhammad Ali at Boxing compared to any pro MMA fighter at strictly Boxing hands only and the difference is vast. Holly Holm is way better at Boxing than Ronda Rousey as proven with her Boxing fight record and from their fight, Ronda is way better at Judo than Holly they are aspects of overall fighting and strategy got Holly the win. I'm sure Jesse could dominate in Chi Sau against many people as you mentioned, his Judo was probably decent too he was a big strong guy but he wasn't better at Chi Sao than all the Chinatown guys especially Dan, & some Wing Chun people were better, nor was his Judo as good as Hayward Nishioka's, World Champions, Olympic athletes, etc. Jesse was tough and because someone was better at Chi Sau, Judo, etc doesn't mean they could have beaten him in a no rules fight. Dan Inosanto could overwhelm Paul Vunak, Burton Richardson, Ron Balicki, Rick Young, Erik Paulson, etc at free sparring, chi sau or anything - just ask them or they've said it in interviews already, they are all very tough guys! Dan doesn't present himself as a fighter, in the sense of the image Bruce Lee or Joe Lewis had, and Dan admits he doesn't have Bruce Lee's talent nor has he seen anyone that has and is a different person e.g. Bruce had a temper or could slap people in training for getting things wrong or not paying attention, Dan is just not like that. But don't mistake that for Dan somehow can't fight or isn't functional, again just ask Paul Vunak, etc for their experiences sparring with him, etc. Dan Inosanto is phenomenal in his own right. I've even heard people say Tim Tackett, Chris Kent, etc know JKD inside out but Dan doesn't or he doesn't teach it, which is ridiculous beyond words when Dan taught them almost everything they know.

Regarding Cheung doing Chi Sau with Jesse Glover ask Cheung, or ask witnesses not listing them all just look at photos of them together at seminars and you can ask people that were there too. Cheung has said he doubted few if anyone in the world could have beaten Bruce Lee in a fight especially at his weight, have not seen him say Bruce was not good at WC but he has said he did not know the full system. You make it sound like Dan Inosanto, William Cheung, etc that met and did seminars with Jesse never touched hands with him or were afraid to do so lol. Have never seen Jesse Glover say anything negative about William Cheung, WSL, Dan Inosanto, etc. Jesse never claimed he knew the full Wing Chun system or that he knew Jeet Kune Do or everything Dan Inosanto did because he wasn't there at the time, he was one of the most honest people Bruce Lee taught! Had Jesse claimed Bruce taught him how to master the one inch punch, or Dim Mak, etc - he could have sold out seminars teaching those things but he never ever did he was always honest about what he learned from Bruce Lee, and he never tried to pass off things he learned after Bruce Lee died as coming direct from Bruce Lee. So it would surprise me if he ever as you claim said negative things about William Cheung, when Jesse's books give praise to Cheung and WSL; if he ever had said such things direct to Cheung or said them in interviews then they later met up at seminar or event, I've no doubt someone like Cheung would have called him out on it! William Cheung was more an athlete and trained harder than some of Ip Man's students like Hawkins Cheung, etc.Look at Cheung's physique in his prime compared to many of them for an indication of how hard he trained.

Tommy Carruthers students & Instructors think he is really good, so do Emil Martirossian's, Carter Hargrave's etc. What they have in common is few serious renowned martial artists regard them as such. Tommy Carruthers and Emil Martirossian have both trained with Dan Inosanto, do you think Dan or his top people thought my goodness this guy is as good or better than Bruce Lee? Another thing common amongst these sort of people is they train generally only amongst themselves, none of their students or Instructors are very good and none are renowned in the martial arts community or even known. None of these people have ever claimed they were great martial artists or fighters and someone like Emil would know fine well after training at Dan's academy that many are way out of his league, if Tommy ever went there and trained he'd find out the same but would improve from there.

Unlike the afore mentioned (Tommy, Emil, Carer, etc) people like Dan Inosanto have renowned students & Instructors - Rick Faye, Paul Vunak, Erik Paulson, Yori Nakamura, Rick Young, Ron Balicki, Burton Richardson, etc. Some of them have competed in MMA, Shootfighting, BJJ etc. All of them have trained with renowned specialists in different arts, the best there is; not just training with their own guys like Emil, Tommy, Carter etc do. You can stay in a nice protective bubble only training with your own guys or seek out the best, the latter obviously means potential for growth is greater and that you have walked the walk experiencing going up against high level people in different arts to really know in practical terms beyond the hypothetical what works and what does not. You can stick with your own guys, and have someone try to take you down or grapple you and you defend it but it is nothing like going up against an elite level grappler, same for knife fighting or anything else. By sticking to a small group of people not a single one of whom is a renowned martial artist gives you a false sense of security, many martial artists have unfortunately developed that. Just look at some traditional Wing Chun people standing upright in traditional stance telling you how to defend against a grappler, yet like Tommy Carruthers they've never been on the mat with any elite world class grapplers to see what works and what doesn't beyond theory or trying it against your own guys none of whom are very good. Bai Jong in JKD and traditional Wing Chun stances are a gift to any good grappler and they don't care if you land a shot or two as they take you down. Saying you could use footwork to avoid a take down or grappling lol, again try it with a world class one and then see. Same for example defending against rear Muay Thai kick from a powerful kicker, if you cannot get out the way with footwork or are in an area where that is not possible or your reactions are slower and you get taken by surprise, you do what in original JKD when that kick is coming direct to your ribs? Traditional Wing Chun people use arms to block such a kick, or even double palm these work great training with their own guys but if they attempted them against a pro Thai Boxer that could kick really hard they would get a wake up call - bruised arms or hands at least, probably broken [see video below].

There are no videos of Tommy Carrthers free sparring nothing prearranged or a live dummy moving around waiting to get hit. He has never once been on the mat with a BJJ Black Belt or Champion and sparred or an elite Sambo, Greco Roman, etc person. If you ask him to put up a video showing him free sparring all out against anyone good (non edited and not brief few seconds), then look out for the many excuses why he won't do so. He only trains with his own guys, none of whom are renowned in the martial arts community. Dan Inosanto and his Instructors etc aren't in awe of people like Tommy Carruthers, Emil Martirossian, Carter Hargrave, etc. Tommy Carruthers or Carter Hargrave would never go now to Dan's academy in LA to learn or go there and claim they are JKD experts that know everything about the art, they can stay in their nice protective bubble training only with their own guys who think they are great and know everything there is to know about JKD. When people like Tommy, Emil. or Carter etc are telling you or insinuating all you need in martial arts you can get from them or that you can develop all aspects of your game by sticking to training just with their own guys, that doesn't mean you have to believe them or stick exclusively to that. Anyone telling you or advocating not to go train with elite grapplers, top knife people, MMA champions, etc or that it will somehow be detrimental to your development as a martial artist - run a mile! If you don't run, again you do not need to stick to what they advocate or believe somehow they have everything you need. You don't need to learn full arts if time or interest does not permit but at least go train with elite people in different arts - there can be no logical rational reason not to unless you are in a Classical Mess.

Many elite level grapplers would be more than happy to spar with Tommy or any of his guys, in a non challenging manner just to show him or his guys how easy someone can get taken down and how hard it is to get to your feet or strike from certain positions with a skilled grappler. They'd be more than happy to put on Goggles and see how many times you can hit their eyes. Same for traditional Wing Chun people, grapplers or MMA people etc would be more than happy to spar with them. Dan Inosanto's Instructors have all been there and done it against renowned people in diferent arts, some have competed in MMA and BJJ. Some Wing Chun people are aware a good grappler can get them down easily if they stick to traditional Wing Chun movements, stance and footwork so they have modified or added things. Others stay in their nice protective bubbles with their own guys and have defences against grappling, knives, Muay Thai, etc. Which approach do you think is better? Going out there and doing it with elite people in different arts, or sticking to your own group of guys?

Wing Chun Master Wong regarding dealing with wrestlers and reality:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5Vd-KAuN97o

Whilst you can see many others in Wing Chun training just with their own guys thinking they can easily stop a good grappler using traditional Wing Chun standing in those funny stances flat footed, body upright, often weight on back leg or split. You can even hear some Wing Chun people claim what I can do with Chi Sao standing I can easily do from my back if taken down, yes they can staying in that protective bubble with their own guys.

Traditional Wing Chun vs Muay Thai :

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zpRWtYC9HOI

That was a Wing Chun instructor, imagine if that was on the street and no rules life and death. The Wing Chun Instructor trained only with his own guys, had he trained with top Muay Thai people he would have had a better idea how to deal with it and not top stand flat footed which limits mobility. A good grappler would have easily taken him down too or MMA person, had he trained with elite people he would raise his game and have a better sense of what works and what doesn't, and not have such a false sense of security his art can deal with any situation or style.

Don't be like that Wing Chun vs Muay Thai video guy staying in a protective bubble training only with your own guys thinking your original JKD will save the day whatever happens. Go out there and train with elite people. Standing in Bai Jong side on is a gift to a grappler to take you down, or for a Thai Boxer to hit your lead leg, whatever your footwork is like you cannot avoid everything, a skilled grappler can close very fast and take you down with great force that alone on the street will cause injury or knock the wind out of you. They don't care about your side kicks or finger jabs they'll happily take them whilst closing the gap and getting their hands on you, besides some can't hit that hard off lead tools and their rear tools especially leg is further back standing in Bai Jong.


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Philip Callahan
Philip Callahan

January 29th, 2016, 6:36 am #135

I agree with your position that martial artists of a certain system should train with martial artists from different systems. Having said that, your understanding of the backgrounds of some of the martial artists you criticize is minimal. Lamar Davis not only trained with at least 15 of Bruce Lee's students, he was the head of security at a nightclub in Alabama for 20 years. If anyone knows what real world combat is about, it's Lamar Davis. Howard Williams called Davis "one of the most knowledgeable and talented JKD instructors in the world." If memory serves, Tommy Carruthers was also a bouncer for a number of years.

I would also be careful with fawning over any/every grappling system. It's about the person, not the system. Prime example is when Rousey got her butt kicked by Holly Holm. Rousey is considered a world class grappler, yet her striking, kicking, and footwork skills are below average. Holm knew little about the grappling arts going into that fight, so her training consisted of footwork patterns that would keep her out of clinches, and she proved that she was simply a better fighter.

In addition, how many "world class" grapplers train with "world class" strikers and/or kickers. The Gracies certainly don't as evidenced by footage of their preparations for early UFC and K1 matches. They sparred with other grapplers and were fortunate to have never faced a fighter with high level striking skills. I realize that they can only compete against who is in front of them, but the proof of their less than stellar competition is all there on tape.

Would I classify them as being overrated fighters? Of course not. They put it on the line in those matches, so I respect their fighting spirit. It is clear, however, that their tool box is limited. Whether it's boxing, kickboxing, or MMA, the fighter who maximizes his or her tools will be the victor. In the case of Holly Holm, her best tools are her incredible kicking skills, and she proceeded to use her tools to the fullest by knocking out Rousey.
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Joined: January 3rd, 2009, 2:05 pm

January 29th, 2016, 5:41 pm #136

What Jesse taught was very crude & basic, no doubt he was good at it. Bruce Lee only knew the first form in Wing Chun, and had certainly not covered all of Chi Sao etc before he left Hong Kong - so what Bruce taught Jesse was limited stuff and Bruce Lee obviously evolved greatly after their time together.

As for you claiming ''Jesse and his guys and the Oakland guys would wipe the floor with the Chinatown guys as they weren't fighters. ''? Bob Bremer was known as the Chinatown Ass kicker, Larry Hartsell was as tough as they come Vietnam vet etc. Not even going there with ''wipe the floor'' between them as many have passed away now. Though consider it today - Jesse Glover's Instructors Tommy Carruthers..... Lamar Davis and his Instructors..... there is no question Ron Balicki, Paul Vunak, Erik Paulson, Yori Nakamura, Burton Richardson...... are in an entirely different league! Those sort of people like Ron, Erik, Yori have all competed in MMA etc and not made excuses not to compete as it is a sport or they can't use their deadliest techniques in it + they also work and train with elite people in different arts which raises their game. They've trained with the Gracies, top Sambo people, etc to know what really works and what doesn't on the ground, how many top grapplers has Tommy Carruthers trained with? Name some. He can pontificate all he likes, if someone tries to take you down do this, or if you are taken down do this to get to your feet working with unskilled people but doing that against an elite grappler is a different ball game. It is obvious the way Tommy Carruthers moves and stands he would be very easy to take down by a skilled high level grappler, and his bite eye gouge strike to get to the feet again just try it against a high skilled grappler and see what you can actually do. If Tommy Carruthers went to Dan Inosanto's academy he would get knocked around by the advanced students and Instructors but overtime would improve and realise the massive huge gaping holes in his game.

Regarding you saying ''Oh and Tommy has trained with many from the Chinatown school.'' for very brief periods or at seminars for one or two days. Dan Inosanto was the main Instructor at the Chinatown school, he taught Bob Bremer, Jerry Poteet etc and Bruce Lee really wasn't there that much. So the Chinatown guys you say Tommy has trained with were all Dan Inosanto students. Tell me how long Tommy Carruthers has trained with Dan Inosanto for? Dan Inosanto studied with Bruce Lee the longest and saw him evolve over a long period of time. You will find Tommy has trained with him only briefly at one or a few seminars years ago, when Dan was teaching other arts like Kali too so what Tommy saw of Dan teaching Jun Fan JKD would be little.
"What Jesse taught was very crude & basic,..."

Davey, I guess you didn´t mean it bad and I further guess you never met Jesse or work with one of his long term students. Well, I did and let me tell you, after more than 50 years, Jesse´s sticking was neither crude nor basic. It was very refined. He could perform with a lot of pressure, medium or no pressure at all and had been successful.

True is, his method was made for the averege student, as most of us are. When you see him teaching his students, what you see is what he gave each person at some stage of their developement. What he can do himself is beyond that.

To the " who is better than" stuff I will not comment.

Best regards
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Joined: January 3rd, 2009, 2:05 pm

January 29th, 2016, 6:18 pm #137

I spoke to William Cheung in the early `80's,and yes,he said that Lee was not very good.But he last saw him as a skinny teen in the mid-50's.At that time,Cheung was fighting for the WC clan,and Lee was in awe of him.That's what he remembers. (GT)

Jesse posted on that forum and I'm not going through hundreds of posts looking for it. I was copying them all out months back and lost them. I will probably do it some time as they are great.

"My first WC instructor (WSL) told me that Jesse has a unmovable tan that one cannot pak it at all regardless how strong you are. How many people can do this? Other well-known WC instructors whom I will not mention here also have a good opinion of Jesse's WC ability though they may disagree with his training methods. It is hard to appreciate the greatness of the man until you meet him face to face and see what he offers first."

David Peterson: I know Jesse very well, was invited by him to give seminars in the WSL Method in Seattle, and have trained with he and his students. Jesse Glover is a formidable fighter whose techniques are both powerful and precise. Sure, his training methods are very different from what many of you might have experienced, and perhaps you may not agree with them, or with some of the techniques/concepts he employs, but the bottom line is that they work, and he produces students with excellent skills. What Jesse is saying about WC is entirely accurate when taken in the context of which it was written. On top of this, his quote from my late Sifu is absolutley accurate as I have heard Sifu make this remark on several occasions. WC is like the finest car, or the most delicate scientific instrument. It is perfect science in every respect, but how many of you would put a young inexperienced driver in that car or place the scientific instrument in the hands of a child and expect good results from your actions? There is much in the WC system that most of us will NEVER fully understand, and even more (in terms of techniques and/or concepts) that we will NEVER have either a need or an opportunity to apply. Most of us will NEVER live a life that requires us to put our skills on the line on a regular, even semi-regular basis....in fact, how many of you can honestly say that you have faced a life-and-death situation and survived it purely based on your WC skills? Lets get real about the whole WC experience. In reality, most of those pursuing the art have NOT been in such a situation, and most of those involved have NOT really experienced what I would refer to as "reality-type" training, whereby on a regular basis, you pit yourself and your students against full-on, aggressive and UNREHEARSED attacks from practitioners of other systems, with the intention to hurt them if they get it wrong. Instead, from what I have observed (and Jesse is speaking of the same reality), what is normally practised in the majority of WC schools are pre-arranged drills with WC techniques being pitted against WC techniques, usually without the "venom" and the psychological pressure (to elicit the necessary "adrenaline dump" that real combat creates), thus giving the students a very false sense of security as to how effective their "skills" will be in the actual "Pavement Arena." The safety net that the four walls of the training area offer is the main culprit for the escalation of ineffective WC that is being taught around the world today. People are trapped in their theories and concepts, bound up by this sequence and that, and have failed to look beyond the "fixed ideas" to discover how WC is meant to offer a guide to self-discovery whereby one "...becomes the MASTER of Wing Chun, and NOT its SLAVE"....look at how Wong Shun Leung reached his level of expertise and understanding, a level that virtually all on this forum have expressed a respect and admiration for. He tested himself UNDER PRESSURE in the real world, not once or twice but DOZENS of times. He didn't spend endless hours in Chi Sau practise, developing endless responses to artificially created and over-analyzed sequences, ...he took the concepts, tested them, refined them down to the most simple alternatives and USED his WC as an effective TOOL to get a job done. When Jesse says that Chi Sau doesn't work in a fight, he's RIGHT, because the way in which most WC practitioners apply it means that it can't be effective. You don't fight your opponent with Chi Sau, ...you USE the skills, reflexes and flexibilty that Chi Sau is meant to develop in order to HIT the other guy, not to "stick" with him or "chase" his hands. Chi Sau, like all the drills, techniques, concepts and forms in WC are a means to an end, NOT the end itself. If Jesse's article makes you depressed, then get off your butt and start training for reality. If you are sitting there complacently, expecting that no matter what happens, "It's okay, my Wing Chun will save the day", then get a grip on reality. Don't take me out of context either, ...I'm not advocating that we throw the baby out with the bath water....you won't find a more loyal devotee of WC than me. The WC system IS a great system of personal combat, but there are lots of other great systems of personal combat out there and chances are that you'll end up fighting them, not one of your own. Don't get blinded by the theory and the forms, UNDERSTAND the message that they are giving you and learn to be flexible and adaptable in applying this knowledge. The reality is that much of what is in the system IS NOT APPLIED EXACTLY AS IT IS TRAINED, any more so than reading a book about swimming can teach you how to swim....you have to jump in the pol and get wet, APPLY the theories to the reality, not just expect them to work like it says in the book. This was the message of my Sifu, this is what Jesse is trying to say....stop attacking the messenger and read the message. If I've offended anyone, no offence was intended and I apologise, but if you have understood what I'm trying to convey, then all the power to you and just watch your WC improve in all the best possible ways. Best Wishes to All.

http://www.kungfumagazine.com/forum/arc ... 18249.html
Hello Nick,


As far as I know, Jesse never met Wong.


quote:

"My first WC instructor (WSL) told me that Jesse has a unmovable tan that one cannot pak it at all regardless how strong you are. How many people can do this? Other well-known WC instructors whom I will not mention here also have a good opinion of Jesse's WC ability though they may disagree with his training methods. It is hard to appreciate the greatness of the man until you meet him face to face and see what he offers first."

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Joined: November 22nd, 2015, 4:29 am

January 29th, 2016, 11:25 pm #138

There was and still is a lot of jealousy about Bruce Lee, many of the tournament fighters in his day wanted to be famous like him and go into movies, when they talk about Bruce Lee they have to add in things like ''I was a champion fighter and fought competitively but he wasn't..........''. As for Bill Wallace he never fought many people in his full contact career that were really good, and when Ron Van Clief entered an early UFC who is little older than Bill, you didn't see Bill himself rushing to enter it. Here is Joe Lewis talking about Bruce Lee :

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S7oa_PNSzCE

In article you posted Bob Wall saying he did not have the timing and distancing to fight seems an absurd thing to say just look up people like Louis Delgado taking about sparring Bruce Lee.
Didn't Ron Van Clief have wonderful things to say about Bruce Lee. That he could give it and take it etc ... They worked with each other briefly didn't they ?
that is how I remember that interview.
Also didnt Dan ones say that some of these guys used to literally tip toe around him (Lee) and now they are going around implying that they could have taken him .

Nick I am sure you have those quotes , interviews etc
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Davey
Davey

January 30th, 2016, 7:01 pm #139

I agree with your position that martial artists of a certain system should train with martial artists from different systems. Having said that, your understanding of the backgrounds of some of the martial artists you criticize is minimal. Lamar Davis not only trained with at least 15 of Bruce Lee's students, he was the head of security at a nightclub in Alabama for 20 years. If anyone knows what real world combat is about, it's Lamar Davis. Howard Williams called Davis "one of the most knowledgeable and talented JKD instructors in the world." If memory serves, Tommy Carruthers was also a bouncer for a number of years.

I would also be careful with fawning over any/every grappling system. It's about the person, not the system. Prime example is when Rousey got her butt kicked by Holly Holm. Rousey is considered a world class grappler, yet her striking, kicking, and footwork skills are below average. Holm knew little about the grappling arts going into that fight, so her training consisted of footwork patterns that would keep her out of clinches, and she proved that she was simply a better fighter.

In addition, how many "world class" grapplers train with "world class" strikers and/or kickers. The Gracies certainly don't as evidenced by footage of their preparations for early UFC and K1 matches. They sparred with other grapplers and were fortunate to have never faced a fighter with high level striking skills. I realize that they can only compete against who is in front of them, but the proof of their less than stellar competition is all there on tape.

Would I classify them as being overrated fighters? Of course not. They put it on the line in those matches, so I respect their fighting spirit. It is clear, however, that their tool box is limited. Whether it's boxing, kickboxing, or MMA, the fighter who maximizes his or her tools will be the victor. In the case of Holly Holm, her best tools are her incredible kicking skills, and she proceeded to use her tools to the fullest by knocking out Rousey.
Never mentioned Lamar Davis in my post that you responded to, regarding serving on the doors 20 years I know people that have done it that long & longer and they say it taught them most about the psychology of people and awareness for spotting potential conflict. What they did not do was have regular fights or use much other than restraining people. With CCTV everywhere now inside and outside clubs & bars, people with mobile phones that can record things, multiple witnesses etc having fights or laying into people with strikes is simply not done - you will be fired from your position and face legal consequences. Often there is more than one bouncer certainly at bigger venues they can restrain individuals without repeatedly striking them or getting into 1 on 1 fights. Sometimes people are drunk or on drugs that start trouble that would never normally do so or walk in perfectly calm. Years on the doors is highly commendable but you aren't getting in all out fights often or unleashing your full arsenal on them and often have help from other bouncers to restrain or eject people. As you mentioned Lamar Davis, here are excerpts from Paula Inosanto's letter (all backed by Dan Inosanto who approved everything in it) :

http://www.martialartskoncepts.com/html ... source.htm

Jerry Beasley, Tommy Carruthers, Lamar Davis, Emil Martirossian, etc are all legit martial artists (Carter Hargrave not sure who he has trained with if anyone that knew Bruce Lee?) - they have all studied with people that knew Bruce Lee, their Jeet Kune Do backgrounds and actual knowledge & how long they actually trained with people that knew Bruce Lee remain questionable to many. None can know as much as Dan Inosanto & only Dan was authorised by Bruce Lee to teach (most of the Chinatown classes) - these people have all trained with Dan very briefly. Had Tommy Carruthers or Carter Hargrave been well known then, it is likely they would have been mentioned in Paula Inosanto's letter also. Not aware of any renowned well known Instructors under Lamar, Carruthers, Martirossian, Hargrave, etc, they may have taught some but not aware of them - if anyone knows any post some links. Dan Inosanto taught all the Chinatown guys he taught most of the classes then after Bruce died he continued teaching many of them some of whom had big holes in their knowledge from when Bruce Lee was alive. Dan's Instructors like Paul Vunak, Erik Paulson, Burton Richardson, Rick Young, Ron Balicki, etc are all renowned. Those doing Jeet Kune Do that do not seek out Dan Inosanto to extensively train with, you have to wonder why as he was the only one authorised to teach by Bruce Lee and actively doing it whilst he was alive and he trained with Bruce Lee the longest. Unless you know JKD inside & out, Dan will never certify you.

Regarding grappling, if you've never been on the mat with a BJJ Black Belt champion, renowned Judo expert, Sambo champion, etc - you'll never really know what works & what doesn't against them. Saying you will stop them grabbing you with strikes or finish them or if taken down you will strike and get to your feet is very naive indeed, many grapplers have ridiculous strength and welcome your strikes as they close on you, if they have to take some to get you down they are fine with it. You can quickly be in a position where you cannot strike effectively or escape and get to your feet - unless you get on the mat with an elite grappler you won't know these things. Many in Jeet Kune Do, Wing Chun & other arts are living in fantasy land on how they defend against grapplers because they've never once trained and sparred all out with world class elite grapplers. All Dan Inosanto's Instructors are highly skilled in grappling and have trained with elite grapplers & some of Dan's people have competed in MMA, BJJ, etc. If you face anyone skilled in grappling on the street and all you have is original JKD or traditional Wing Chun or Tae Kwon Do etc then you have major problems, same if you face someone skilled in Filipino arts and they have a knife, etc.

Wrestling vs Wing Chun :

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5Vd-KAuN97o It would be same for original JKD people that have never sparred and trained with elite world class grapplers.













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David
David

February 1st, 2016, 2:04 pm #140

"What Jesse taught was very crude & basic,..."

Davey, I guess you didn´t mean it bad and I further guess you never met Jesse or work with one of his long term students. Well, I did and let me tell you, after more than 50 years, Jesse´s sticking was neither crude nor basic. It was very refined. He could perform with a lot of pressure, medium or no pressure at all and had been successful.

True is, his method was made for the averege student, as most of us are. When you see him teaching his students, what you see is what he gave each person at some stage of their developement. What he can do himself is beyond that.

To the " who is better than" stuff I will not comment.

Best regards
That's much better than someone who keep saying this fella is no good, that fella isn't a fighter without providing any proof. Looks real silly.
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