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I spoke to William Cheung in the early `80's,and yes,he said that Lee was not very good.But he last saw him as a skinny teen in the mid-50's.At that time,Cheung was fighting for the WC clan,and Lee was in awe of him.That's what he remembers. (GT)Nowhere did you manage to quote Jesse Glover saying that he did not feel William Cheung was that good. Jesse felt not many in Wing Chun could really apply it practically, it is same for any art some train hard and work it under real pressure whilst others don't. William Cheung and Jesse Glover did Chi Sau and Cheung was all over him, Cheung said he thought what he did was crude and limited but still effective just not against the most skilled of Wing Chun people. Not sure if Jesse ever mentioned that in interviews but it was witnessed by numerous people, maybe like some of the Karate guys that sparred with Bruce Lee they have amnesia about it ever happening. The claims of others like James Demile that later people had weak trapping or Bruce began to leave out important things so they could never reach his level are not true and just for self publicity, besides people like Dan Inosanto, etc have trained with Jesse Glover and others from the earlier period and experienced what they do. Bear in mind also Dan Inosanto has trained with several renowned Wing Chun people :
Many in Wing Chun are firmly stuck in a Classical Mess as Bruce Lee would term it, same also for many Aikido people, many in old school or original Jeet Kune Do, Tae Kwon Do, etc. Though there are those in those arts who aren't and are very good at what they do, and have worked with other skilled people in other arts. Just ask many of those people in Aikido or original JKD which elite people trained in BJJ, Sambo, Greco Roman, etc they have been on the mat trained and sparred with, and tried their grappling defences against? Or ask how many elite level Filipino martial artists have they trained with to try out their stick or knife defence on? Or top MMA people they have trained and sparred with? Sitting in a neat protective shell training only with your own guys, pontificating how what you do would deal with a skilled grappler or someone trained in knife fighting is fantasy la la land and gives you a false sense of security. MMA is becoming more popular thus chances increase someone you fight at a local bar or in the street may have training in it, or just be skilled at grappling and BJJ, which is better sitting in that neat protective shell training only with your own guys none of whom are renowned in the martial arts community or seeking out high level MMA people to train with? The answer is obvious! You go to places like Philippines chances are a street attacker may have had some training in Filipino arts like Kali, not everyone there has trained in arts but certainly chance if you have an encounter they will be - better to stay in your neat protective shell with your classical mess or get out there and train with elite Filipino martial artists? Someone using old school Jeet Kune Do or traditional Wing Chun unarmed would be a gift to someone with even moderate skill at using a knife in Kali,if they trained with elite Filipino martial artists they would be aware of that! A Traditional Wing Chun person standing face on flat footed is a gift to any grappler trying to take them down, if they trained with elite grapplers they would realise that. Someone with even moderate skill who has not trained extensively in Kali will do attacks with stick or knife you are not prepared for, slashing at your wrists as you punch, slashing the inside of your thighs just standing or if you try kick which causes serious blood loss fast. You don't need to train for years in systems or devote your life to them but you better at least have been on the mat with high level MMA, BJJ, Sambo, Wrestlers etc as opposed to have stayed in a neat protective shell with just your own guys none of whom are renowned in the martial arts community.
Talk to any great fighter, Joe Lewis, Muhammad Ali, Bruce Lee and they all agreed what separated the great from the rest was mobility and being able to move better than anyone else. Footwork and simplicity was key whatever style.Jesse Glover sadly isn't here anymore, though what he did was certainly crude and basic but it worked for him, claims he was better than Chinatown guys are silly and irrelevant. It also shows you have limited knowledge of Wing Chun, there are attacks etc in Chi Sao that Jesse would have been unable to defend against. Jesse Glover met William Cheung, you really think when they did Chi Sau he was all over Cheung? He wasn't and you can ask Cheung himself, he thought Jesse's trapping and Chi Sau was very limited , crude and basic but could still be used effectively just not against the most skilled of Wing Chun people. Jesse felt that not many in Wing Chun could really apply the art effectively but that some could.
''I'll let you work out why that was and it wasn't by collecting more techniques. It was about refining and developing basic skills e.g. footwork, distance, timing, speed, combinations and being better than anyone else at these skills.'' - standing in Bai Jong, using finger jabs or straight leads, low side kicks....... is very predictable indeed, those aren't the only techniques but they are commonly used. Standing face on in Wing Chun using straight blast, low kicks, getting close........is very predictable. Becoming the best you can be is developing all your attributes as you mentioned whilst training with the best people in other arts, not learning entire arts if you don't want to but getting on the mat with a top Sambo, BJJ person, a pro Boxer, pro MMA fighter....... To not do so means you are living in fantasy la la la land pontificating what you would do against people skilled in grappling, Muay Thai, etc, there are people in many arts that do just that have people do lame attacks pretending they are a boxer, grappler, etc and they can easily defend against them because they are not very skilled or world renowned specialists in their art. Many Wing Chun people have never sparred or trained with a pro Boxer, to know what does and doesn't work and to know how they react when they get repeatedly hit in the head with hard punches. Many Jeet Kune Do old school or original haven't for example been on the mat with world class level grapplers - a Sambo champion, BJJ, etc. If Tommy Carruthers, Lamar Davis have - name those elite level grapplers? Going against a knife unarmed is hard to do, doing that against someone highly skilled or even moderately trained even more so, name some top Filipino martial arts those sort of people have trained with? Training with world class people in other arts for certain raises your game, and gives you real feedback on what you can and cannot do against them, again you don't need to learn entire arts or devote your life to them. Sticking with just your own guys, not seeking out the best in other arts to train with means you are likely living in la la fantasy land - none of Tommy Carruthers Instructors or students seem very good and none are renowned in the martial arts world. Dan Inosanto has trained Erik Paulson, Ron Balicki, Paul Vunak, Burton Richardson..........all renowned in the martial arts community and well known, how many people have Tommy Carruthers, Lamar Davis etc trained that are renowned? Same for Emil Martirossian or Carter Hargrave who have they trained that is renowned in the martial arts community?
Jesse Glover is not here anymore but to say he was better or tougher than any of the Chinatown guys is getting very silly! Dan Inosanto the main Instructor at Chinatown studied with Bruce Lee the longest, after Bruce's passing he also studied with several renowned Wing Chun masters, Dan also saw Jesse Glover and what he could do. Of course there would have been Wing Chun masters that would have been all over Jesse at Chi Sau, & someone like Dan Inosanto of course was better but so what? Jesse did Judo too and taught some to Bruce, any Olympic level Judo champion would have wiped the floor with him at strict Judo. It doesn't mean Jesse wasn't good at Chi Sau or Judo or that he wasn't a good fighter, it is more the difference of a Floyd Mayweather & Muhammad Ali at Boxing compared to any pro MMA fighter at strictly Boxing hands only and the difference is vast. Holly Holm is way better at Boxing than Ronda Rousey as proven with her Boxing fight record and from their fight, Ronda is way better at Judo than Holly they are aspects of overall fighting and strategy got Holly the win. I'm sure Jesse could dominate in Chi Sau against many people as you mentioned, his Judo was probably decent too he was a big strong guy but he wasn't better at Chi Sao than all the Chinatown guys especially Dan, & some Wing Chun people were better, nor was his Judo as good as Hayward Nishioka's, World Champions, Olympic athletes, etc. Jesse was tough and because someone was better at Chi Sau, Judo, etc doesn't mean they could have beaten him in a no rules fight. Dan Inosanto could overwhelm Paul Vunak, Burton Richardson, Ron Balicki, Rick Young, Erik Paulson, etc at free sparring, chi sau or anything - just ask them or they've said it in interviews already, they are all very tough guys! Dan doesn't present himself as a fighter, in the sense of the image Bruce Lee or Joe Lewis had, and Dan admits he doesn't have Bruce Lee's talent nor has he seen anyone that has and is a different person e.g. Bruce had a temper or could slap people in training for getting things wrong or not paying attention, Dan is just not like that. But don't mistake that for Dan somehow can't fight or isn't functional, again just ask Paul Vunak, etc for their experiences sparring with him, etc. Dan Inosanto is phenomenal in his own right. I've even heard people say Tim Tackett, Chris Kent, etc know JKD inside out but Dan doesn't or he doesn't teach it, which is ridiculous beyond words when Dan taught them almost everything they know.Talk to any great fighter, Joe Lewis, Muhammad Ali, Bruce Lee and they all agreed what separated the great from the rest was mobility and being able to move better than anyone else. Footwork and simplicity was key whatever style.
You better provide some evidence of William Cheung beating Jesse at Chi Sau other than Cheung's mouth. He said Bruce was not good at WC. WSL said Bruce was good at chi sau. Who do you believe? WSL - Bruce's main WC instructor or Cheung who claimed only he knew the real Yip Man WC system LOL.
"What Jesse taught was very crude & basic,..."What Jesse taught was very crude & basic, no doubt he was good at it. Bruce Lee only knew the first form in Wing Chun, and had certainly not covered all of Chi Sao etc before he left Hong Kong - so what Bruce taught Jesse was limited stuff and Bruce Lee obviously evolved greatly after their time together.
As for you claiming ''Jesse and his guys and the Oakland guys would wipe the floor with the Chinatown guys as they weren't fighters. ''? Bob Bremer was known as the Chinatown Ass kicker, Larry Hartsell was as tough as they come Vietnam vet etc. Not even going there with ''wipe the floor'' between them as many have passed away now. Though consider it today - Jesse Glover's Instructors Tommy Carruthers..... Lamar Davis and his Instructors..... there is no question Ron Balicki, Paul Vunak, Erik Paulson, Yori Nakamura, Burton Richardson...... are in an entirely different league! Those sort of people like Ron, Erik, Yori have all competed in MMA etc and not made excuses not to compete as it is a sport or they can't use their deadliest techniques in it + they also work and train with elite people in different arts which raises their game. They've trained with the Gracies, top Sambo people, etc to know what really works and what doesn't on the ground, how many top grapplers has Tommy Carruthers trained with? Name some. He can pontificate all he likes, if someone tries to take you down do this, or if you are taken down do this to get to your feet working with unskilled people but doing that against an elite grappler is a different ball game. It is obvious the way Tommy Carruthers moves and stands he would be very easy to take down by a skilled high level grappler, and his bite eye gouge strike to get to the feet again just try it against a high skilled grappler and see what you can actually do. If Tommy Carruthers went to Dan Inosanto's academy he would get knocked around by the advanced students and Instructors but overtime would improve and realise the massive huge gaping holes in his game.
Regarding you saying ''Oh and Tommy has trained with many from the Chinatown school.'' for very brief periods or at seminars for one or two days. Dan Inosanto was the main Instructor at the Chinatown school, he taught Bob Bremer, Jerry Poteet etc and Bruce Lee really wasn't there that much. So the Chinatown guys you say Tommy has trained with were all Dan Inosanto students. Tell me how long Tommy Carruthers has trained with Dan Inosanto for? Dan Inosanto studied with Bruce Lee the longest and saw him evolve over a long period of time. You will find Tommy has trained with him only briefly at one or a few seminars years ago, when Dan was teaching other arts like Kali too so what Tommy saw of Dan teaching Jun Fan JKD would be little.
Hello Nick,I spoke to William Cheung in the early `80's,and yes,he said that Lee was not very good.But he last saw him as a skinny teen in the mid-50's.At that time,Cheung was fighting for the WC clan,and Lee was in awe of him.That's what he remembers. (GT)
Jesse posted on that forum and I'm not going through hundreds of posts looking for it. I was copying them all out months back and lost them. I will probably do it some time as they are great.
"My first WC instructor (WSL) told me that Jesse has a unmovable tan that one cannot pak it at all regardless how strong you are. How many people can do this? Other well-known WC instructors whom I will not mention here also have a good opinion of Jesse's WC ability though they may disagree with his training methods. It is hard to appreciate the greatness of the man until you meet him face to face and see what he offers first."
David Peterson: I know Jesse very well, was invited by him to give seminars in the WSL Method in Seattle, and have trained with he and his students. Jesse Glover is a formidable fighter whose techniques are both powerful and precise. Sure, his training methods are very different from what many of you might have experienced, and perhaps you may not agree with them, or with some of the techniques/concepts he employs, but the bottom line is that they work, and he produces students with excellent skills. What Jesse is saying about WC is entirely accurate when taken in the context of which it was written. On top of this, his quote from my late Sifu is absolutley accurate as I have heard Sifu make this remark on several occasions. WC is like the finest car, or the most delicate scientific instrument. It is perfect science in every respect, but how many of you would put a young inexperienced driver in that car or place the scientific instrument in the hands of a child and expect good results from your actions? There is much in the WC system that most of us will NEVER fully understand, and even more (in terms of techniques and/or concepts) that we will NEVER have either a need or an opportunity to apply. Most of us will NEVER live a life that requires us to put our skills on the line on a regular, even semi-regular basis....in fact, how many of you can honestly say that you have faced a life-and-death situation and survived it purely based on your WC skills? Lets get real about the whole WC experience. In reality, most of those pursuing the art have NOT been in such a situation, and most of those involved have NOT really experienced what I would refer to as "reality-type" training, whereby on a regular basis, you pit yourself and your students against full-on, aggressive and UNREHEARSED attacks from practitioners of other systems, with the intention to hurt them if they get it wrong. Instead, from what I have observed (and Jesse is speaking of the same reality), what is normally practised in the majority of WC schools are pre-arranged drills with WC techniques being pitted against WC techniques, usually without the "venom" and the psychological pressure (to elicit the necessary "adrenaline dump" that real combat creates), thus giving the students a very false sense of security as to how effective their "skills" will be in the actual "Pavement Arena." The safety net that the four walls of the training area offer is the main culprit for the escalation of ineffective WC that is being taught around the world today. People are trapped in their theories and concepts, bound up by this sequence and that, and have failed to look beyond the "fixed ideas" to discover how WC is meant to offer a guide to self-discovery whereby one "...becomes the MASTER of Wing Chun, and NOT its SLAVE"....look at how Wong Shun Leung reached his level of expertise and understanding, a level that virtually all on this forum have expressed a respect and admiration for. He tested himself UNDER PRESSURE in the real world, not once or twice but DOZENS of times. He didn't spend endless hours in Chi Sau practise, developing endless responses to artificially created and over-analyzed sequences, ...he took the concepts, tested them, refined them down to the most simple alternatives and USED his WC as an effective TOOL to get a job done. When Jesse says that Chi Sau doesn't work in a fight, he's RIGHT, because the way in which most WC practitioners apply it means that it can't be effective. You don't fight your opponent with Chi Sau, ...you USE the skills, reflexes and flexibilty that Chi Sau is meant to develop in order to HIT the other guy, not to "stick" with him or "chase" his hands. Chi Sau, like all the drills, techniques, concepts and forms in WC are a means to an end, NOT the end itself. If Jesse's article makes you depressed, then get off your butt and start training for reality. If you are sitting there complacently, expecting that no matter what happens, "It's okay, my Wing Chun will save the day", then get a grip on reality. Don't take me out of context either, ...I'm not advocating that we throw the baby out with the bath water....you won't find a more loyal devotee of WC than me. The WC system IS a great system of personal combat, but there are lots of other great systems of personal combat out there and chances are that you'll end up fighting them, not one of your own. Don't get blinded by the theory and the forms, UNDERSTAND the message that they are giving you and learn to be flexible and adaptable in applying this knowledge. The reality is that much of what is in the system IS NOT APPLIED EXACTLY AS IT IS TRAINED, any more so than reading a book about swimming can teach you how to swim....you have to jump in the pol and get wet, APPLY the theories to the reality, not just expect them to work like it says in the book. This was the message of my Sifu, this is what Jesse is trying to say....stop attacking the messenger and read the message. If I've offended anyone, no offence was intended and I apologise, but if you have understood what I'm trying to convey, then all the power to you and just watch your WC improve in all the best possible ways. Best Wishes to All.
http://www.kungfumagazine.com/forum/arc ... 18249.html
Didn't Ron Van Clief have wonderful things to say about Bruce Lee. That he could give it and take it etc ... They worked with each other briefly didn't they ?There was and still is a lot of jealousy about Bruce Lee, many of the tournament fighters in his day wanted to be famous like him and go into movies, when they talk about Bruce Lee they have to add in things like ''I was a champion fighter and fought competitively but he wasn't..........''. As for Bill Wallace he never fought many people in his full contact career that were really good, and when Ron Van Clief entered an early UFC who is little older than Bill, you didn't see Bill himself rushing to enter it. Here is Joe Lewis talking about Bruce Lee :
In article you posted Bob Wall saying he did not have the timing and distancing to fight seems an absurd thing to say just look up people like Louis Delgado taking about sparring Bruce Lee.
Never mentioned Lamar Davis in my post that you responded to, regarding serving on the doors 20 years I know people that have done it that long & longer and they say it taught them most about the psychology of people and awareness for spotting potential conflict. What they did not do was have regular fights or use much other than restraining people. With CCTV everywhere now inside and outside clubs & bars, people with mobile phones that can record things, multiple witnesses etc having fights or laying into people with strikes is simply not done - you will be fired from your position and face legal consequences. Often there is more than one bouncer certainly at bigger venues they can restrain individuals without repeatedly striking them or getting into 1 on 1 fights. Sometimes people are drunk or on drugs that start trouble that would never normally do so or walk in perfectly calm. Years on the doors is highly commendable but you aren't getting in all out fights often or unleashing your full arsenal on them and often have help from other bouncers to restrain or eject people. As you mentioned Lamar Davis, here are excerpts from Paula Inosanto's letter (all backed by Dan Inosanto who approved everything in it) :I agree with your position that martial artists of a certain system should train with martial artists from different systems. Having said that, your understanding of the backgrounds of some of the martial artists you criticize is minimal. Lamar Davis not only trained with at least 15 of Bruce Lee's students, he was the head of security at a nightclub in Alabama for 20 years. If anyone knows what real world combat is about, it's Lamar Davis. Howard Williams called Davis "one of the most knowledgeable and talented JKD instructors in the world." If memory serves, Tommy Carruthers was also a bouncer for a number of years.
I would also be careful with fawning over any/every grappling system. It's about the person, not the system. Prime example is when Rousey got her butt kicked by Holly Holm. Rousey is considered a world class grappler, yet her striking, kicking, and footwork skills are below average. Holm knew little about the grappling arts going into that fight, so her training consisted of footwork patterns that would keep her out of clinches, and she proved that she was simply a better fighter.
In addition, how many "world class" grapplers train with "world class" strikers and/or kickers. The Gracies certainly don't as evidenced by footage of their preparations for early UFC and K1 matches. They sparred with other grapplers and were fortunate to have never faced a fighter with high level striking skills. I realize that they can only compete against who is in front of them, but the proof of their less than stellar competition is all there on tape.
Would I classify them as being overrated fighters? Of course not. They put it on the line in those matches, so I respect their fighting spirit. It is clear, however, that their tool box is limited. Whether it's boxing, kickboxing, or MMA, the fighter who maximizes his or her tools will be the victor. In the case of Holly Holm, her best tools are her incredible kicking skills, and she proceeded to use her tools to the fullest by knocking out Rousey.
That's much better than someone who keep saying this fella is no good, that fella isn't a fighter without providing any proof. Looks real silly."What Jesse taught was very crude & basic,..."
Davey, I guess you didn´t mean it bad and I further guess you never met Jesse or work with one of his long term students. Well, I did and let me tell you, after more than 50 years, Jesse´s sticking was neither crude nor basic. It was very refined. He could perform with a lot of pressure, medium or no pressure at all and had been successful.
True is, his method was made for the averege student, as most of us are. When you see him teaching his students, what you see is what he gave each person at some stage of their developement. What he can do himself is beyond that.
To the " who is better than" stuff I will not comment.