Joined: January 3rd, 2009, 2:05 pm

January 27th, 2016, 6:27 am #121

In punching techniques the lead hand moves before the lead foot, so as not to tip off the opponent, that is the key to Non-Telegraphic striking.

- Bruce Lee, Tao of JKD
In my opinion, if you are out of reach, the foot must move first.
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Davey
Davey

January 27th, 2016, 10:38 am #122

You're starting to make yourself look silly now. When it comes to trapping Jesse is as good as it gets...ask around!
Trapping was taught less as time went on as Bruce moved away from it and made things more efficient by disengaging instead.
Jesse and his guys and the Oakland guys would wipe the floor with the Chinatown guys as they weren't fighters.
Oh and Tommy has trained with many from the Chinatown school.
What Jesse taught was very crude & basic, no doubt he was good at it. Bruce Lee only knew the first form in Wing Chun, and had certainly not covered all of Chi Sao etc before he left Hong Kong - so what Bruce taught Jesse was limited stuff and Bruce Lee obviously evolved greatly after their time together.

As for you claiming ''Jesse and his guys and the Oakland guys would wipe the floor with the Chinatown guys as they weren't fighters. ''? Bob Bremer was known as the Chinatown Ass kicker, Larry Hartsell was as tough as they come Vietnam vet etc. Not even going there with ''wipe the floor'' between them as many have passed away now. Though consider it today - Jesse Glover's Instructors Tommy Carruthers..... Lamar Davis and his Instructors..... there is no question Ron Balicki, Paul Vunak, Erik Paulson, Yori Nakamura, Burton Richardson...... are in an entirely different league! Those sort of people like Ron, Erik, Yori have all competed in MMA etc and not made excuses not to compete as it is a sport or they can't use their deadliest techniques in it + they also work and train with elite people in different arts which raises their game. They've trained with the Gracies, top Sambo people, etc to know what really works and what doesn't on the ground, how many top grapplers has Tommy Carruthers trained with? Name some. He can pontificate all he likes, if someone tries to take you down do this, or if you are taken down do this to get to your feet working with unskilled people but doing that against an elite grappler is a different ball game. It is obvious the way Tommy Carruthers moves and stands he would be very easy to take down by a skilled high level grappler, and his bite eye gouge strike to get to the feet again just try it against a high skilled grappler and see what you can actually do. If Tommy Carruthers went to Dan Inosanto's academy he would get knocked around by the advanced students and Instructors but overtime would improve and realise the massive huge gaping holes in his game.

Regarding you saying ''Oh and Tommy has trained with many from the Chinatown school.'' for very brief periods or at seminars for one or two days. Dan Inosanto was the main Instructor at the Chinatown school, he taught Bob Bremer, Jerry Poteet etc and Bruce Lee really wasn't there that much. So the Chinatown guys you say Tommy has trained with were all Dan Inosanto students. Tell me how long Tommy Carruthers has trained with Dan Inosanto for? Dan Inosanto studied with Bruce Lee the longest and saw him evolve over a long period of time. You will find Tommy has trained with him only briefly at one or a few seminars years ago, when Dan was teaching other arts like Kali too so what Tommy saw of Dan teaching Jun Fan JKD would be little.
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Joined: July 16th, 2003, 11:43 am

January 27th, 2016, 11:09 am #123

That is your opinion. BL was training daily for many hours with WSL in Chi Sau before he left HK and moved to the States - at least 18 months. Months after arriving Bruce is training his first and only student at the time Jesse in Chi Sau. Bruce and Jesse train together daily doing it. Jesse was good because he got dedicated training from Bruce in that skill and developed it. To think any of the LA guys were in Jesse's league at trapping skills shows true ignorance. Jesse could do it for real not in pre-arranged drills and sets! BL was one of best Chi Sau guys anywhere and use to visit any so-called Wing Chun instructors in the States and touch hands with them and wipe the floor with them and tell them you shouldn't be teaching this art. Bruce didn't like Wing Chun being exploited by instructors that he felt couldn't do it and gave it a bad name!

Dan Inosanto was the main instructor but he collected stuff and is the most knowledgeable guy out there. That was his path in life so good for him. He admitted he can't fight like Bruce because he hasn't got the same superb fighting attributes so he found a way that works for him. Simplicity is the key. How to move better than everyone? How to get faster than anyone? How to hit harder than anyone? Who is best is not who knows the most about the most arts! Look at Ali in boxing - he never really punched to the body, he just moved his head to escape blows - he did everything wrong in the boxing manual but was the best. Guys couldn't touch him before he was stripped off his title in the 60s. I'll let you work out why that was and it wasn't by collecting more techniques. It was about refining and developing basic skills e.g. footwork, distance, timing, speed, combinations and being better than anyone else at these skills. He was totally dedicated, tough and a winner.


Last edited by pathfinder73 on January 27th, 2016, 11:11 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Davey
Davey

January 27th, 2016, 11:10 am #124

I don't rate WC from what I've seen. WSL yes. Jesse didn't rate William Cheung either.
''I don't rate WC from what I've seen. WSL yes. Jesse didn't rate William Cheung either.'' where did Jesse Glover say this? William Cheung trained harder than many of Ip Man's students, just look at his physique in his prime compared to WSL, Hawkins Cheung,Ip Chun, etc. Cheung's technique looks solid you can tell he has practiced, even though it includes a lot of ridiculous impractical things. WSL to be honest didn't look great compared to Cheung, WSL was no athlete and a chain smoker he never looked fast or that powerful or his technique very sharp. Just look at videos of him on Youtube such as the Instructional video he did in the early 1980's to see how he moved, same for people like Hawkins Cheung not much of an athlete and movement doesn't look too sharp.

Just because Cheung looked in better shape and his technique sharper doesn't necessarily mean he was better or knew more than WSL,Hawkins Cheung, Ip Chun, etc. Same for Jesse Glover or his brother Mike Lee, his brother Mike looked in better shape and more athletic but that doesn't necessarily mean better. Here is rare footage of Jesse's brother Mike, he looks powerful even if he is telegraphing most things by a mile! :

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8nnynu2kPuY

WSL knew the entire Wing Chun system, whilst it is questionable if William Cheung did know the full system or learn it all before leaving Hong Kong :
http://cheungswingchuntruth.blogspot.co.uk/

Some Wing Chun masters looks good at Chi Sau etc but not much good at anything else - when they free spar, attack from a distance, or do self defence, those that don't just look good at Chi Sau, etc often incorporate techniques from other arts too. Because Wing Chun doesn't require exceptional athletic ability, some don't train that hard as an all round athlete but if they did it would only serve to make them better.
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Joined: July 16th, 2003, 11:43 am

January 27th, 2016, 11:27 am #125

Jesse posted on the Paul Bax forum about many things. He was a wise guy and very respected.

When I think about Wing Chun I think that certain aspects of it are great. At the same time I think that other aspects of it are not practical for the average student. Wong Shun Leung said that Wing Chun is a good horse but few people can ride it. I totally agree with this statement. The techniques in Wing Chun that anyone can learn are chain punching, chasing, simultaneous punching and blocking and certain aspects of sticking hands.

– Jesse Glover
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Joined: December 13th, 2012, 7:02 pm

January 27th, 2016, 6:18 pm #126

ROCKFISH: Exactly. Hand before foot is a fencing concept, as is the forward lunge and steal a step. In the Seattle period, Bruce mainly used Wing Chun footwork which included the Snake Step Principle.
Indeed, keep it simple and direct. If you look at the footage of Lee shooting finger jabs at Vic Moore during the 1968 Long Beach Karate Tourney watch his footwork, he looks just like a Fencer minus the Foil.
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Joined: December 13th, 2012, 7:02 pm

January 27th, 2016, 6:27 pm #127

In my opinion, if you are out of reach, the foot must move first.
I understand your opinion, But Not if you have long arms and good reach, Lee had long arms. And that's where the non-telegraphic punch comes into play. You can also slap his lead hand while you're advancing to distract and lead into the hand trap punch, sweep, ect. Peace.
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Davey
Davey

January 27th, 2016, 8:09 pm #128

That is your opinion. BL was training daily for many hours with WSL in Chi Sau before he left HK and moved to the States - at least 18 months. Months after arriving Bruce is training his first and only student at the time Jesse in Chi Sau. Bruce and Jesse train together daily doing it. Jesse was good because he got dedicated training from Bruce in that skill and developed it. To think any of the LA guys were in Jesse's league at trapping skills shows true ignorance. Jesse could do it for real not in pre-arranged drills and sets! BL was one of best Chi Sau guys anywhere and use to visit any so-called Wing Chun instructors in the States and touch hands with them and wipe the floor with them and tell them you shouldn't be teaching this art. Bruce didn't like Wing Chun being exploited by instructors that he felt couldn't do it and gave it a bad name!

Dan Inosanto was the main instructor but he collected stuff and is the most knowledgeable guy out there. That was his path in life so good for him. He admitted he can't fight like Bruce because he hasn't got the same superb fighting attributes so he found a way that works for him. Simplicity is the key. How to move better than everyone? How to get faster than anyone? How to hit harder than anyone? Who is best is not who knows the most about the most arts! Look at Ali in boxing - he never really punched to the body, he just moved his head to escape blows - he did everything wrong in the boxing manual but was the best. Guys couldn't touch him before he was stripped off his title in the 60s. I'll let you work out why that was and it wasn't by collecting more techniques. It was about refining and developing basic skills e.g. footwork, distance, timing, speed, combinations and being better than anyone else at these skills. He was totally dedicated, tough and a winner.

Jesse Glover sadly isn't here anymore, though what he did was certainly crude and basic but it worked for him, claims he was better than Chinatown guys are silly and irrelevant. It also shows you have limited knowledge of Wing Chun, there are attacks etc in Chi Sao that Jesse would have been unable to defend against. Jesse Glover met William Cheung, you really think when they did Chi Sau he was all over Cheung? He wasn't and you can ask Cheung himself, he thought Jesse's trapping and Chi Sau was very limited , crude and basic but could still be used effectively just not against the most skilled of Wing Chun people. Jesse felt that not many in Wing Chun could really apply the art effectively but that some could.

''I'll let you work out why that was and it wasn't by collecting more techniques. It was about refining and developing basic skills e.g. footwork, distance, timing, speed, combinations and being better than anyone else at these skills.'' - standing in Bai Jong, using finger jabs or straight leads, low side kicks....... is very predictable indeed, those aren't the only techniques but they are commonly used. Standing face on in Wing Chun using straight blast, low kicks, getting close........is very predictable. Becoming the best you can be is developing all your attributes as you mentioned whilst training with the best people in other arts, not learning entire arts if you don't want to but getting on the mat with a top Sambo, BJJ person, a pro Boxer, pro MMA fighter....... To not do so means you are living in fantasy la la la land pontificating what you would do against people skilled in grappling, Muay Thai, etc, there are people in many arts that do just that have people do lame attacks pretending they are a boxer, grappler, etc and they can easily defend against them because they are not very skilled or world renowned specialists in their art. Many Wing Chun people have never sparred or trained with a pro Boxer, to know what does and doesn't work and to know how they react when they get repeatedly hit in the head with hard punches. Many Jeet Kune Do old school or original haven't for example been on the mat with world class level grapplers - a Sambo champion, BJJ, etc. If Tommy Carruthers, Lamar Davis have - name those elite level grapplers? Going against a knife unarmed is hard to do, doing that against someone highly skilled or even moderately trained even more so, name some top Filipino martial arts those sort of people have trained with? Training with world class people in other arts for certain raises your game, and gives you real feedback on what you can and cannot do against them, again you don't need to learn entire arts or devote your life to them. Sticking with just your own guys, not seeking out the best in other arts to train with means you are likely living in la la fantasy land - none of Tommy Carruthers Instructors or students seem very good and none are renowned in the martial arts world. Dan Inosanto has trained Erik Paulson, Ron Balicki, Paul Vunak, Burton Richardson..........all renowned in the martial arts community and well known, how many people have Tommy Carruthers, Lamar Davis etc trained that are renowned? Same for Emil Martirossian or Carter Hargrave who have they trained that is renowned in the martial arts community?

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Davey
Davey

January 27th, 2016, 8:44 pm #129

Jesse posted on the Paul Bax forum about many things. He was a wise guy and very respected.

When I think about Wing Chun I think that certain aspects of it are great. At the same time I think that other aspects of it are not practical for the average student. Wong Shun Leung said that Wing Chun is a good horse but few people can ride it. I totally agree with this statement. The techniques in Wing Chun that anyone can learn are chain punching, chasing, simultaneous punching and blocking and certain aspects of sticking hands.

– Jesse Glover
Nowhere did you manage to quote Jesse Glover saying that he did not feel William Cheung was that good. Jesse felt not many in Wing Chun could really apply it practically, it is same for any art some train hard and work it under real pressure whilst others don't. William Cheung and Jesse Glover did Chi Sau and Cheung was all over him, Cheung said he thought what he did was crude and limited but still effective just not against the most skilled of Wing Chun people. Not sure if Jesse ever mentioned that in interviews but it was witnessed by numerous people, maybe like some of the Karate guys that sparred with Bruce Lee they have amnesia about it ever happening. The claims of others like James Demile that later people had weak trapping or Bruce began to leave out important things so they could never reach his level are not true and just for self publicity, besides people like Dan Inosanto, etc have trained with Jesse Glover and others from the earlier period and experienced what they do. Bear in mind also Dan Inosanto has trained with several renowned Wing Chun people :

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZL1JTnZEw0o

Many in Wing Chun are firmly stuck in a Classical Mess as Bruce Lee would term it, same also for many Aikido people, many in old school or original Jeet Kune Do, Tae Kwon Do, etc. Though there are those in those arts who aren't and are very good at what they do, and have worked with other skilled people in other arts. Just ask many of those people in Aikido or original JKD which elite people trained in BJJ, Sambo, Greco Roman, etc they have been on the mat trained and sparred with, and tried their grappling defences against? Or ask how many elite level Filipino martial artists have they trained with to try out their stick or knife defence on? Or top MMA people they have trained and sparred with? Sitting in a neat protective shell training only with your own guys, pontificating how what you do would deal with a skilled grappler or someone trained in knife fighting is fantasy la la land and gives you a false sense of security. MMA is becoming more popular thus chances increase someone you fight at a local bar or in the street may have training in it, or just be skilled at grappling and BJJ, which is better sitting in that neat protective shell training only with your own guys none of whom are renowned in the martial arts community or seeking out high level MMA people to train with? The answer is obvious! You go to places like Philippines chances are a street attacker may have had some training in Filipino arts like Kali, not everyone there has trained in arts but certainly chance if you have an encounter they will be - better to stay in your neat protective shell with your classical mess or get out there and train with elite Filipino martial artists? Someone using old school Jeet Kune Do or traditional Wing Chun unarmed would be a gift to someone with even moderate skill at using a knife in Kali,if they trained with elite Filipino martial artists they would be aware of that! A Traditional Wing Chun person standing face on flat footed is a gift to any grappler trying to take them down, if they trained with elite grapplers they would realise that. Someone with even moderate skill who has not trained extensively in Kali will do attacks with stick or knife you are not prepared for, slashing at your wrists as you punch, slashing the inside of your thighs just standing or if you try kick which causes serious blood loss fast. You don't need to train for years in systems or devote your life to them but you better at least have been on the mat with high level MMA, BJJ, Sambo, Wrestlers etc as opposed to have stayed in a neat protective shell with just your own guys none of whom are renowned in the martial arts community.
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Philip Callahan
Philip Callahan

January 27th, 2016, 10:00 pm #130

That is your opinion. BL was training daily for many hours with WSL in Chi Sau before he left HK and moved to the States - at least 18 months. Months after arriving Bruce is training his first and only student at the time Jesse in Chi Sau. Bruce and Jesse train together daily doing it. Jesse was good because he got dedicated training from Bruce in that skill and developed it. To think any of the LA guys were in Jesse's league at trapping skills shows true ignorance. Jesse could do it for real not in pre-arranged drills and sets! BL was one of best Chi Sau guys anywhere and use to visit any so-called Wing Chun instructors in the States and touch hands with them and wipe the floor with them and tell them you shouldn't be teaching this art. Bruce didn't like Wing Chun being exploited by instructors that he felt couldn't do it and gave it a bad name!

Dan Inosanto was the main instructor but he collected stuff and is the most knowledgeable guy out there. That was his path in life so good for him. He admitted he can't fight like Bruce because he hasn't got the same superb fighting attributes so he found a way that works for him. Simplicity is the key. How to move better than everyone? How to get faster than anyone? How to hit harder than anyone? Who is best is not who knows the most about the most arts! Look at Ali in boxing - he never really punched to the body, he just moved his head to escape blows - he did everything wrong in the boxing manual but was the best. Guys couldn't touch him before he was stripped off his title in the 60s. I'll let you work out why that was and it wasn't by collecting more techniques. It was about refining and developing basic skills e.g. footwork, distance, timing, speed, combinations and being better than anyone else at these skills. He was totally dedicated, tough and a winner.

Two prime examples of how Bruce Lee trapped. Notice the HUGE difference between how Ted Wong utilized the Pak Sao (e.g., link provided by Nick) and how Lamar Davis utilizes the Pak Sao.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3m2u6g5 ... 619189117A

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9lQivQsiPk8

Lamar Davis was certified by instructors from all three periods of Lee's martial arts development. They include Seattle Era student Patrick Strong, Oakland Era student Leo Fong, and L.A./Chinatown Era student Jerry Poteet. The Pak Sao and Lop Sao techniques demonstrated by Davis were taught to him by ALL three instructors. Davis clearly is a fan of the compound trapping techniques taught by Lee to students in the Seattle and Oakland periods. As I previously mentioned, by 1967, Lee had abandoned the compound trapping elements of JKD and focused on the single trap & hit.
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