Philip Callahan
Philip Callahan

January 26th, 2016, 2:13 pm #111

You're starting to make yourself look silly now. When it comes to trapping Jesse is as good as it gets...ask around!
Trapping was taught less as time went on as Bruce moved away from it and made things more efficient by disengaging instead.
Jesse and his guys and the Oakland guys would wipe the floor with the Chinatown guys as they weren't fighters.
Oh and Tommy has trained with many from the Chinatown school.
During the Chinatown Period, Ted Wong was training privately with Bruce, so I would imagine that Ted had a pretty good understanding of his Sifu's philosophy on trapping. As a matter of fact, there was a period of time when Ted was close with William Cheung. He taught Lee Wing Chun whenever Wong Shun Leung was unavailable.

Despite assertions to the contrary, there was a common thread between eras in regards to how Bruce taught HIA techniques. For example, Lee felt that the Pak Sao should be delivered at the elbow joint, that the trap should do some damage to the elbow joint, the arm should be pressed into the opponents centerline, and the opponent's lead leg should be checked using shin to shin contact.

Bruce taught this to Seattle Era student Patrick Strong, Oakland Era student Howard Williams, and L.A./Chinatown Era student Jerry Poteet. The only tangible difference between the 3 eras is that by 1967, Bruce had completely abandoned compound trapping. By that time, Bruce was obsessed with bridging the gap. When he did trap, it would involve closing fast using fencing footwork, the use of a single trap, and then all hell would break loose.

While I would agree that there were more pure fighters in Seattle and Oakland, the Chinatwon kwoon did have 3 major bad asses at its disposal. Bob Bremer, Dan Lee, and Larry Hartsell were tough dudes who would mix it up in a heartbeat. Great story about Bremer.

Scott Loring was a 6'1" 215 pound Kenpo black belt who gave Joe Lewis the toughest point fight of his storied career. Loring visited the Chinatwon kwoon after speaking to Ed Parker and he arrived with an attitude. Bremer was miffed by this attitude, so he asked Loring to spar full contact. At that time, the Chinatwon kwoon was the only martial arts school to wear protective gear during sparring sessions.

Loring attempted to use a rear leg kick, Bremer did a leg obstruction, and proceeded to straight blast Loring into a wall. Dan Inosanto then called a halt to the sparring session. When Dan told Bruce what happened, Bruce was smiling from ear to ear. With the exception of Ted Wong, nobody from that era logged more private training time with Bruce than Bob Bremer.
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Joined: July 16th, 2003, 11:43 am

January 26th, 2016, 4:03 pm #112

I don't rate WC from what I've seen. WSL yes. Jesse didn't rate William Cheung either.
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Philip Callahan
Philip Callahan

January 26th, 2016, 9:33 pm #113

NICK: The context of my William Cheung reference was in regards to whether Ted Wong was proficient at trapping hands. While Cheung's skill level and boastful claims have been challenged, there is no debating that he was one of two martial artists who taught Bruce Lee the Wing Chun system. Wong Shun Leung was Lee's primary teacher, but Cheung did teach Lee the system whenever Leung was unable to do so.



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Joined: July 16th, 2003, 11:43 am

January 26th, 2016, 10:01 pm #114

Hi Philip, Let me know what you think from 4:50

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=W_hq-Cwrkqg

"I thank you (WSL) and Master for teaching me the ways of Wing Chun in Hong Kong. Actually, I have to thank you for leading me to walk on a practical road." BL

William Cheung Dim Mak expert

Here is verbatim as requested William Cheung's response to a letter from the
leading masters of Wing Chun. My version comes from Australasian fighting Arts
Vol 10 nr 3. I don't know if there are other versions.

********************************************************************


Firstly, I want to point out that the statement by the Ving Tsun Athletic
Association in their letter that the "the association was founded by the late
grandmaster Yip Man and most of his senior student since 1976" is not true,
because Yip Man died in 1971. So he couldn't have founded the Ving Tsun
Athletic Association in 1976 as claimed.
I shall attempt to answer their letter point by point:
(1) I am the leader of the Traditional Wing Chun because I am the only person
who inherited the whole Traditional system of Wing Chun. Furthermore, I also
know the modified version thoroughly, and know that it is inferior to the
Traditional system. I therefore proclaim myself the Grandmaster of the
Traditional Wing Chun Kung Fu. If anyone does not think so, he can come and
see me and I will be more than too pleased to show him.
(2) I was the only person that Grandmaster Yip Man chose to carry on the
whole Traditional Wing Chun system. I am the best fighter in the Wing Chun
Style. This was acknowledged by the late Bruce Lee, and recognized by many
famous masters of other styles. I anyone needs proof, I would only be too
pleased to oblige.
(3) Nobody - I say nobody - was taught the traditional Wing Chun footwork but
me. I Leung Ting and company knew it, they would be showing their students. It
is like the case of the Bil Jee form. Nobody knew the proper form except me
and that is why they have been telling people that the Bil Jee form was too
dangerous even to show it; in order to cover up the fact that they don't know
it. I was the first WEing Chun master to put Bil Jee in a book so that
everyone can learn the correct version.
(4)Dim Mak or disabling Pressure Point Techniques was passed on to me, along
with the whole Traditional system of Wing Chun. If you have read my article on
the subject you might understand how it works. However, ther is no medicine for
ignorance; Leung Ting and company deny the existence because they don't know
it. At least this time they admit their ignorance. My book on Dim Mak, or
Disabling Pressure Point Techniques, will be on the market soon. Keep your
eyes open. In china there is a Kung Fu monk who could stand upside down on one
or two hands. Some people can break a half dozen inch boards with a punch.
Maybe there are people who can stand on a dozen eggs. I can stand on two
without breaking them. All these can be called tricks if you like, but the
fact is that I am still "the best Wing Chun Fighter". I dare anyone to prove
otherwise.
(5) It is irrelevant to argue whether Yip Man had made be take an oath before
he taught me the complete Traditional Wing Chun System, because no-one else
was privileged to witness it. The fact is, that after 36 years of training in
Wing Chun, I have the confidence to say that I am the most knowledgeable
master in the Wing Chun System and I am the best fighter, and I am willing to
prove it to them at any time, anywhere. Unlike Leung Ting and company, as
shown in the photo, you only have to take one look at them to realize that
none of them look that part of martial artists. I could safely say that none
of them have done any hard training in recent years. They certainly don't look
very impressive!
In the 50's I was a kid . . . so was Bruce Lee . . . full of enthusiasm and
energy. We learned Wing Chun together and we were determined to make a name
for Wing Chun and ourselves. And we did. In the 50's Leung Ting was still "in
his diapers". He didn't learn Wing Chun until the 1960's from Leung Chun,(Yip
Man's student) of his own admission. He is one generation behind Bruce and me.
However, according to the article published in "Secrets of Kung Fu" Vol 2
1977, hundred of Kung Fu masters in Hong Kong - including Leung Chun, Yip
Shun, Tsui Sheng tin, and Wong Shun Leung - denounced Leung Ting in very
strong terms (I have enclosed copies) Leung Shun was reportedly saying that
Leung Ting wasn't learning from him, but from his student Jah Bak. This makes
Leung Ting two generation behind Bruce Lee and I.
And Leung Ting's claim that he was Yip Man's closed door student is on what
grounds? In the 60's, Yip Man was a heavy drug user, and did not enjoy very
good health. There was no way that Yip Man could have taught anyone in that
state of health. Even his own sons, Yip Chun and Yip Ching, who came to Hong
Kong in the 1960's, had to be content to train with Yip Man's senior students.
Wing Chun is a system which was developed for one to be able to master in
three to four years. Grandmaster Yip Man, from age of twelve to sixteen,
learned four years part time the modified version of Wing Chun with Chan Wah
Shun and, from age 17, he learned 2 years traditional Wing Chun from Leung Buk
(Leung Jung's son) in Hong Kong. Wong Shun Leung only learned modified Wing
Chun for three years part time and he began teaching in early 1955. Loh Liu
probably started teaching after only 2 years part time training in the
modified version.
I studied Wing Chun for 4 and one half years part time in the modified
version, and then 2 and one half years full time in the traditional version,
when I was living with Yip Man. I learned the modified version as well as the
traditional version. After I completed my learning, I have continued to
practice for a further 28 years, and I still practice daily.
From these factors you can see that I am the most qualified practitioner in
both modified and traditional versions of Wing Chun Kung Fu. I proclaim myself
the most knowledgeable master and the best fighter in the whole Wing Chun
style.
I would like to close off with a very famous Chinese proverb : "Practicing
Kung Fu is like paddling upstream - if you don't go forward, you must go
backward, and seldom you stay in the same spot". It is no surprise to find the
whole group in the printed photo appear to have gone so far backward that I
would be ashamed to be associated with them.

William Cheung
Grandmaster

Wong Shun Leung cites an example from his younger days when he was involved in a fight that had erupted between a friend of his and another man. He defeated the person in question and was about to leave the scene when the guy, still lying on the ground, called out, “Hey little fella, don’t go! I’ve already given you the dim mak (death touch). You’re doomed!” Wong then adds, “That was around thirty-five years ago and the dim mak hasn’t worked yet…” Once, when asked by a journalist for an Australian magazine about the existence or non-existence of dim mak techniques in Wing Chun, Wong Sifu jokingly replied, “You might kill yourself if you touch yourself,” and then in a slightly more serious tone, “Besides, if a person is moving very fast, it’s almost impossible to touch some small areas with such precision.”

http://www.wslwingchun.com/1997/wong-sh ... ersonified
Last edited by pathfinder73 on January 26th, 2016, 10:09 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Philip Callahan
Philip Callahan

January 26th, 2016, 10:19 pm #115

NICK: Thanks for the link. It is just another example of why Ted Wong's post-2000 statements about trapping are his PERSONAL feelings about HIA, and in no way reflect Bruce Lee's philosophy about the effectiveness of trapping hands. In the last minute, Wong even demonstrates ways to bridge the gap in order to get to trapping range. It is clear, however, that Bruce either didn't teach Wong the proper use of the Pak Sao or Wong didn't feel comfortable using the power trap.
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Joined: July 16th, 2003, 11:43 am

January 26th, 2016, 10:38 pm #116

Hi Philip, Let me know what you think from 4:50

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=W_hq-Cwrkqg

"I thank you (WSL) and Master for teaching me the ways of Wing Chun in Hong Kong. Actually, I have to thank you for leading me to walk on a practical road." BL

William Cheung Dim Mak expert

Here is verbatim as requested William Cheung's response to a letter from the
leading masters of Wing Chun. My version comes from Australasian fighting Arts
Vol 10 nr 3. I don't know if there are other versions.

********************************************************************


Firstly, I want to point out that the statement by the Ving Tsun Athletic
Association in their letter that the "the association was founded by the late
grandmaster Yip Man and most of his senior student since 1976" is not true,
because Yip Man died in 1971. So he couldn't have founded the Ving Tsun
Athletic Association in 1976 as claimed.
I shall attempt to answer their letter point by point:
(1) I am the leader of the Traditional Wing Chun because I am the only person
who inherited the whole Traditional system of Wing Chun. Furthermore, I also
know the modified version thoroughly, and know that it is inferior to the
Traditional system. I therefore proclaim myself the Grandmaster of the
Traditional Wing Chun Kung Fu. If anyone does not think so, he can come and
see me and I will be more than too pleased to show him.
(2) I was the only person that Grandmaster Yip Man chose to carry on the
whole Traditional Wing Chun system. I am the best fighter in the Wing Chun
Style. This was acknowledged by the late Bruce Lee, and recognized by many
famous masters of other styles. I anyone needs proof, I would only be too
pleased to oblige.
(3) Nobody - I say nobody - was taught the traditional Wing Chun footwork but
me. I Leung Ting and company knew it, they would be showing their students. It
is like the case of the Bil Jee form. Nobody knew the proper form except me
and that is why they have been telling people that the Bil Jee form was too
dangerous even to show it; in order to cover up the fact that they don't know
it. I was the first WEing Chun master to put Bil Jee in a book so that
everyone can learn the correct version.
(4)Dim Mak or disabling Pressure Point Techniques was passed on to me, along
with the whole Traditional system of Wing Chun. If you have read my article on
the subject you might understand how it works. However, ther is no medicine for
ignorance; Leung Ting and company deny the existence because they don't know
it. At least this time they admit their ignorance. My book on Dim Mak, or
Disabling Pressure Point Techniques, will be on the market soon. Keep your
eyes open. In china there is a Kung Fu monk who could stand upside down on one
or two hands. Some people can break a half dozen inch boards with a punch.
Maybe there are people who can stand on a dozen eggs. I can stand on two
without breaking them. All these can be called tricks if you like, but the
fact is that I am still "the best Wing Chun Fighter". I dare anyone to prove
otherwise.
(5) It is irrelevant to argue whether Yip Man had made be take an oath before
he taught me the complete Traditional Wing Chun System, because no-one else
was privileged to witness it. The fact is, that after 36 years of training in
Wing Chun, I have the confidence to say that I am the most knowledgeable
master in the Wing Chun System and I am the best fighter, and I am willing to
prove it to them at any time, anywhere. Unlike Leung Ting and company, as
shown in the photo, you only have to take one look at them to realize that
none of them look that part of martial artists. I could safely say that none
of them have done any hard training in recent years. They certainly don't look
very impressive!
In the 50's I was a kid . . . so was Bruce Lee . . . full of enthusiasm and
energy. We learned Wing Chun together and we were determined to make a name
for Wing Chun and ourselves. And we did. In the 50's Leung Ting was still "in
his diapers". He didn't learn Wing Chun until the 1960's from Leung Chun,(Yip
Man's student) of his own admission. He is one generation behind Bruce and me.
However, according to the article published in "Secrets of Kung Fu" Vol 2
1977, hundred of Kung Fu masters in Hong Kong - including Leung Chun, Yip
Shun, Tsui Sheng tin, and Wong Shun Leung - denounced Leung Ting in very
strong terms (I have enclosed copies) Leung Shun was reportedly saying that
Leung Ting wasn't learning from him, but from his student Jah Bak. This makes
Leung Ting two generation behind Bruce Lee and I.
And Leung Ting's claim that he was Yip Man's closed door student is on what
grounds? In the 60's, Yip Man was a heavy drug user, and did not enjoy very
good health. There was no way that Yip Man could have taught anyone in that
state of health. Even his own sons, Yip Chun and Yip Ching, who came to Hong
Kong in the 1960's, had to be content to train with Yip Man's senior students.
Wing Chun is a system which was developed for one to be able to master in
three to four years. Grandmaster Yip Man, from age of twelve to sixteen,
learned four years part time the modified version of Wing Chun with Chan Wah
Shun and, from age 17, he learned 2 years traditional Wing Chun from Leung Buk
(Leung Jung's son) in Hong Kong. Wong Shun Leung only learned modified Wing
Chun for three years part time and he began teaching in early 1955. Loh Liu
probably started teaching after only 2 years part time training in the
modified version.
I studied Wing Chun for 4 and one half years part time in the modified
version, and then 2 and one half years full time in the traditional version,
when I was living with Yip Man. I learned the modified version as well as the
traditional version. After I completed my learning, I have continued to
practice for a further 28 years, and I still practice daily.
From these factors you can see that I am the most qualified practitioner in
both modified and traditional versions of Wing Chun Kung Fu. I proclaim myself
the most knowledgeable master and the best fighter in the whole Wing Chun
style.
I would like to close off with a very famous Chinese proverb : "Practicing
Kung Fu is like paddling upstream - if you don't go forward, you must go
backward, and seldom you stay in the same spot". It is no surprise to find the
whole group in the printed photo appear to have gone so far backward that I
would be ashamed to be associated with them.

William Cheung
Grandmaster

Wong Shun Leung cites an example from his younger days when he was involved in a fight that had erupted between a friend of his and another man. He defeated the person in question and was about to leave the scene when the guy, still lying on the ground, called out, “Hey little fella, don’t go! I’ve already given you the dim mak (death touch). You’re doomed!” Wong then adds, “That was around thirty-five years ago and the dim mak hasn’t worked yet…” Once, when asked by a journalist for an Australian magazine about the existence or non-existence of dim mak techniques in Wing Chun, Wong Sifu jokingly replied, “You might kill yourself if you touch yourself,” and then in a slightly more serious tone, “Besides, if a person is moving very fast, it’s almost impossible to touch some small areas with such precision.”

http://www.wslwingchun.com/1997/wong-sh ... ersonified
by Richard S. Bustillo

Ted Wong then told me about a fight that he had had in Chinatown. His story began with him having dinner at the Golden Eagle Restaurant where we normally had lunch with Bruce Lee, Dan Inosanto and the students after our Saturday morning class. Ted was having dinner with Bill Cheung and two journalists, a photographer, Doug Churchill, and a writer, Mike Lee. They were collaborating on a new book that they wanted to publish. After dinner they said their goodbyes and went their separate ways. As Ted was walking to his car, he heard his name being called. He turned and saw Doug and Mike in a fight a block away with a gang of boys. Ted said he ran back to help his journalist friends. He was now in the middle of the fight alongside Doug, and Mike was nowhere in sight. Ted knocked one down and continued the fight against the others, but then tripped over the person he knocked down. While on the ground, he got kicks to the head and body. Ted said that he was getting dizzy from being kicked and he knew that if he didn"t get up, then he would be in big trouble. Ted did get up and continued to fight on instincts. The gang left running.

Sadly, because of Mike"s dialyses treatment, he could hardly defend himself. He was found unconscious between two parked cars. Mike was transported by ambulance to the USC County Hospital. Ted went to the hospital and stayed with Mike Lee waiting for an available room, but it wasn"t until the next early morning until Mike was admitted. Unfortunately, Mike had waited too long for his care and he died in the hospital. Ted was heart-broken when he got home.

Id asked Ted what we could learn from this unfortunate experience, what would he have done differently in the fight. He said, "We practice too much safety. I should have kicked to break the knee, (biu gee) finger jabbed at the eyes, and kick at the groin area. I told Ted that he should be proud: "you survived a gang fight and helped a friend." Most times in a full-blown fight when the adrenal glands are pumping, one is punching and kicking instinctively to stop the aggressor from hitting you.

http://martialinfo.com/martial-art-inst ... s-id=14600

This was the book:

Last edited by pathfinder73 on January 26th, 2016, 10:41 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Joined: January 3rd, 2009, 2:05 pm

January 26th, 2016, 11:30 pm #117

During the Chinatown Period, Ted Wong was training privately with Bruce, so I would imagine that Ted had a pretty good understanding of his Sifu's philosophy on trapping. As a matter of fact, there was a period of time when Ted was close with William Cheung. He taught Lee Wing Chun whenever Wong Shun Leung was unavailable.

Despite assertions to the contrary, there was a common thread between eras in regards to how Bruce taught HIA techniques. For example, Lee felt that the Pak Sao should be delivered at the elbow joint, that the trap should do some damage to the elbow joint, the arm should be pressed into the opponents centerline, and the opponent's lead leg should be checked using shin to shin contact.

Bruce taught this to Seattle Era student Patrick Strong, Oakland Era student Howard Williams, and L.A./Chinatown Era student Jerry Poteet. The only tangible difference between the 3 eras is that by 1967, Bruce had completely abandoned compound trapping. By that time, Bruce was obsessed with bridging the gap. When he did trap, it would involve closing fast using fencing footwork, the use of a single trap, and then all hell would break loose.

While I would agree that there were more pure fighters in Seattle and Oakland, the Chinatwon kwoon did have 3 major bad asses at its disposal. Bob Bremer, Dan Lee, and Larry Hartsell were tough dudes who would mix it up in a heartbeat. Great story about Bremer.

Scott Loring was a 6'1" 215 pound Kenpo black belt who gave Joe Lewis the toughest point fight of his storied career. Loring visited the Chinatwon kwoon after speaking to Ed Parker and he arrived with an attitude. Bremer was miffed by this attitude, so he asked Loring to spar full contact. At that time, the Chinatwon kwoon was the only martial arts school to wear protective gear during sparring sessions.

Loring attempted to use a rear leg kick, Bremer did a leg obstruction, and proceeded to straight blast Loring into a wall. Dan Inosanto then called a halt to the sparring session. When Dan told Bruce what happened, Bruce was smiling from ear to ear. With the exception of Ted Wong, nobody from that era logged more private training time with Bruce than Bob Bremer.
Bruce was good at fast closing long before 1967. Check out Jesse´s books.
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Joined: December 13th, 2012, 7:02 pm

January 26th, 2016, 11:44 pm #118

In punching techniques the lead hand moves before the lead foot, so as not to tip off the opponent, that is the key to Non-Telegraphic striking.

- Bruce Lee, Tao of JKD
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Joined: December 13th, 2012, 7:02 pm

January 27th, 2016, 12:03 am #119

In a recent 2015 interview found in the “Chinese Kung Fu History documentary,” JKD instructor, Tommy Carruthers talked about the difference between MMA and JKD.

According to Tommy Carruthers:

“Jeet Kune Do is not directly connected to MMA. However, both MMA and JKD have punches and kicks like Karate and Kung Fu, so people link JKD to MMA. But the goal of Bruce Lee’s JKD is very clear, that is to finish the opponent fast.”

“MMA is a sports, there’s no kicking to the groin, no breaking of legs and no finger jabs. Even if MMA allows groin kicking, finger jabbing and knee kicking,…it is still very difficult to award the points to the participants accurately.”

“MMA is a sports and Jeet Kune Do is not. There are many types of punches and kicks which can be used on the street but to use MMA in real street fighting is highly dangerous and it is very foolish as you may loose your life.”

“I know 2 guys,… two friends of mine who use MMA in a street brawl, died because they never got back up. One guy was kicked to death and another guy being stabbed and never survive. So, have to adjust according to the situation. It’s very important to control the environment…But on the street, they would not just tap you but they would hit and kill you...”

“I appreciate MMA... It’s a sports...what matter is not to just kick the opponent’s legs and body but to kick the groin and use the finger jab more direct and effective and finish it fast. MMA has kicks and punches but as far as attack is concerned, it is more of a sports and not real fighting. Because if you have a chance to kick the groin, why kick the side? Why you punch the face instead of jabbing the eyes? This is Bruce’s theory. Thought I couldn’t remember exactly what he said, but roughly is like if you could use jabbing to the eyes, why punch his head? What Bruce wanted to says was that finger jab is faster, longer and more effective than the punch. You just make sure the jab hit the target and finishes it off.”

“MMA is a sports which people love and look forward to, but compare with MMA, I personally ’m more willingly to watch good boxing matches. Some people thinks that MMA is very good but for me, I like to watch boxing as it looks more skillful and its footsteps are much better (than MMA)...”

Video of Tommy Carruthers: “MMA is a Sports, JKD isn’t” -

Jeet Kune Do Tommy Carruthers Legacy of Bruce Lee


Tommy Carruthers Showreel - Underground Edition
Connor McGregor states he is a Big Bruce Lee fan, he even uses the lead leg low side kick in his fights. Here he gives Advice on how to win a Bar Fight.


http://www.foxsports.com/ufc/haymaker/s ... ght-012616
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Philip Callahan
Philip Callahan

January 27th, 2016, 12:57 am #120

In punching techniques the lead hand moves before the lead foot, so as not to tip off the opponent, that is the key to Non-Telegraphic striking.

- Bruce Lee, Tao of JKD
ROCKFISH: Exactly. Hand before foot is a fencing concept, as is the forward lunge and steal a step. In the Seattle period, Bruce mainly used Wing Chun footwork which included the Snake Step Principle.
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