Joined: July 5th, 2018, 10:03 pm

July 24th, 2018, 4:51 pm #21

[quote="JTF"]
BADGER: IMO, the most overlooked aspect of Bruce Lee is that he created a unique martial art at the tender age of 25. Despite his youth, portions of his art were already battle tested in the streets of Hong Kong and Seattle. It speaks to his genius that he was constantly evolving and improving upon techniques that, for the most part, had saved his bacon. Right or wrong, Bruce Lee's approach to teaching JKD, was to teach different methods to different people. For example, he only taught the full pendulum footwork to Ted Wong because Wong was small and relied on his ability to get in and out. The 5'11" 220 pound Bob Bremer was taught the Hammer Principle due to his ability to crash the line.

James DeMile recalled his experiences at a convention in the early 90's that focused on bringing in Bruce Lee students from Seattle, Oakland, and L.A./Chinatown. After watching students from each time period perform certain techniques, DeMile was struck by the vast differences between the fighting methods of each time period. DeMile added, "It amazes me that every one of these students was taught by the same man." Fortunately, the passing of time has allowed JKD instructors the luxury of choosing their own path. Some focus on the Jun Fan Gung Fu aspects of JKD, while others feel that the L.A./Chinatown JKD methods are more effective.

There is a uniformity, however, in the delivery system of JKD. Bruce felt that his updated Bai Jong stance helped to protect vital targets and was a far more efficient way of delivering effective kicks and punches. The raised rear heel acted as both a pivot mechanism (e.g., overlapping circles maximizes body torque) and a means of engaging what he called the "spring load." JKD is certainly not for everyone, but couldn't the same be said of any martial art? IMO, the key is the individual and not the martial art, and creating a list of the best or most effective martial art(s) is a study in futility. 
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Believe me, do not believe this propaganda. There is no real fight on television . Joe Lewis said an interview 'I would only fight with Gracies in a fight without rules'. He knew he would be defeated in a rules fight and would be the winner in a no-rules fight. In UFC fights they constantly need to stop the fight when a fighter involuntarily hits the eyes of their opponent. In a real fight no one will stop the fight when someone hits your eyes in a real fight when you have a person as fast as Bruce Lee trying to hit your eyes you have a very serious problem. Joe Lewis said in an interview'I did not have a great time in the ring actually I never liked hitting people`. Fighting is a very serious thing, beating other people is a very serious thing, it's not entertainment for idiot kids. Fighting leaves sequels that are going to be carried for life, a genius like Bruce Lee was never going to enter a stupid egos competition.
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Joined: December 19th, 2017, 9:38 pm

July 26th, 2018, 3:39 pm #22

Joe Lewis once said during a seminar (it's on Youtube) that he had a suspicion that a good wrestler could beat most of those in (standup) martial arts and he was right. 

However the concept of 'no rules' is not tenable. Who can commit a foul better than someone with positional control - the one in control. No non-professional is ever going to step into a cage with a professional armed with 'eye-poke skills' and expect to dominate. They all know how to survive in a no-rules situation better than an amateur.

The Gracies have fought people before in the Gracie challenge with 'no-rules' and it has not affected the outcome. Indeed Gerard Gordeau tried to foul Royce in UFC 1, by biting him and that's why Royce held onto the choke longer. Despite trying to cheat, Gracie still won.

I'm not sure what you're calling propaganda and the message you quoted is not about fighting on TV, but I think Joe Lewis knew he could not have won against any of the Gracies, knowing his wrestling and judo was pretty rusty and he was not a young man anymore by 1993.
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Joined: July 25th, 2015, 1:24 pm

July 26th, 2018, 4:43 pm #23

Something to think about. The Gracies won the early UFC cause no one could stop their take-downs. You do not have to really know even 15% of Ju Jitsu to stop take downs. Infact even Muay Thai and in some ways boxing has tools to atleast assist in stopping takedowns. Even kills you when in clinch range. The only condition is that you have to train against good takedown artists and really practice it,  (like the Gracies did when it came to taking people down).
Watch Cro cop vs Coleman. He made Coleman look like a "no name" fighter cause he kept stopping his take downs. NO takedown and a Gracie or a Coleman can never work their magic.
Gracie did the reverse and made everyone else look like they were toddlers.
Theoretically someone taking you down can be kneed, or kicked coming in (even punched while coming in).
Gracie were so good against everyone else cause they have trained to do what they do since childhood and were DAMN good at what they do.
Ground fighting is important of course but not more important to learn than stand up, infact I will always start with learning stand up.
All fights do NOT hit the ground. Fights hit the ground cause either one is an expert at takedowns and the other is not a ground fighter or both dont have no damn clue on how to fight. However most fights do hit the clinch range even if both are experts at fighting (any style).
Any rebuttals will be appreciated, no fighting though lol
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Joined: July 24th, 2015, 3:19 am

July 26th, 2018, 6:11 pm #24

Not all fights go to the ground, but most do.  A good Jiu Jitsu fighter will always try to set up a take-down with another move, so that his opponent won't be able to react in time. No matter how good your stand up game is, you won't be able to avoid getting taken down by a good BJJ fighter. That's why it's important to learn ground fighting, and learn counter moves to it.
"All type of knowledge ultimately means self-knowledge"
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Joined: July 25th, 2015, 1:24 pm

July 26th, 2018, 8:44 pm #25

of course there are many set ups to takedowns just like there are many set ups to hooks and right hands and leg kicks etc etc , that is what fighting is about atleast in the cage. All a part of that one important take-down. Of course a good JJ man will take you down just like an equally good guy who has trained in stopping take downs and fighting in the clinch will stop take downs. Modern UFC is close to real fighting and you see it all the time. A fighter stops take downs and than the other fighter has to deal with those possibly leg destroying kicks and possible knock-out punches. The fighter than again tries to take down and so it goes on and on.  All I am saying is that the early UFC or the Gracie challenges are a part of history , an evolutionary process of martial arts and not an end in itself. (Some say this is just a resurgence , which is possibly true since fighting is old as man). These Gracie challenges will not be as effective today not only cause people know ground fighting but many will just stop the take-downs and COMPLETELY nullify the JJ guy. The main reason is that now we have a generation that has practiced stopping take-downs and fighting from clinch against wrestlers and JJ people.

If you did not know who Coleman was and just watched the Crop cop vs Coleman fight you would think that Coleman was not even a fighter. (Coleman was a master at takes-downs , and a killer on the ground). but since he could not take Cro cop down his skills were completely nullified.

Hell, even the mystical Rickson who probably was the greatest on the ground got hit in one of his eye in his last fight, as he was coming in and later said that he just could not see from that eye, it was swollen shut. Now his opponent was not even a high class striker.
(of course Rickson did not even need his eyes ones he was on the ground, BUT first he needs to get to the ground.),

Anyway I guess this is a never ending debate.
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Joined: December 19th, 2017, 9:38 pm

July 28th, 2018, 2:40 pm #26

"These Gracie challenges will not be as effective today not only cause people know ground fighting but many will just stop the take-downs and COMPLETELY nullify the JJ guy."

You may be right if the person doing the challenge is an experienced cage fighter but if you're talking about the average amateur, I don't think they are going to be able to counter that if they're not experienced at wrestling. The idea that an untrained person can watch UFC and then defeat takedowns is, of course, not correct, nor is it tenable to train in 'anti-grappling' which is a silly concept, put forth by people who don't want to train grappling.
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Joined: July 24th, 2015, 3:19 am

July 28th, 2018, 5:36 pm #27

There is a video with James Demile talking about how he didn't train in grappling because he could stop anyone who tried to take him down just using his original JKD. It's pretty funny.
"All type of knowledge ultimately means self-knowledge"
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Joined: December 19th, 2017, 9:38 pm

July 28th, 2018, 10:28 pm #28

^^ What's funny is that he already knows there was at least one guy he couldn't stop. You'd think he could extrapolate that.
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Joined: July 25th, 2015, 1:24 pm

July 29th, 2018, 11:57 am #29

[quote="badger01j"]
"These Gracie challenges will not be as effective today not only cause people know ground fighting but many will just stop the take-downs and COMPLETELY nullify the JJ guy."

You may be right if the person doing the challenge is an experienced cage fighter but if you're talking about the average amateur, I don't think they are going to be able to counter that if they're not experienced at wrestling. The idea that an untrained person can watch UFC and then defeat takedowns is, of course, not correct, nor is it tenable to train in 'anti-grappling' which is a silly concept, put forth by people who don't want to train grappling.
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"untrained" I never spoke of untrained people (who watch ufc ....) !
nor did I say that one should not learn grappling. This is 2018 , to be a complete fighter learning ground fighting is important. Just like learning how to defend against kicks is important. HARD WORK to learn how to fight !
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Joined: July 25th, 2015, 1:24 pm

July 29th, 2018, 12:00 pm #30

[quote="JKD54"]
There is a video with James Demile talking about how he didn't train in grappling because he could stop anyone who tried to take him down just using his original JKD. It's pretty funny.
[/quote]

I don't want to disrespect anyone but I find it hard to separate the good info from the bad (to put it lightly) when I read or listen to Demile !
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