Joined: August 26th, 2018, 8:39 pm

September 5th, 2018, 2:53 pm #21

Interesting. Thanks.
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Joined: December 19th, 2017, 9:38 pm

September 5th, 2018, 4:00 pm #22

TBH, I always found the backyard footage a bit of a disappointment, because none of the people including Bruce Lee looked very good. His bag punching was terrible, and the kicking was not that good. 

I thought a few times that if this was how he really was in real life maybe he's not as good as I thought.
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Joined: October 24th, 2015, 12:26 am

September 5th, 2018, 4:43 pm #23

[quote="badger01j"]
TBH, I always found the backyard footage a bit of a disappointment, because none of the people including Bruce Lee looked very good. His bag punching was terrible, and the kicking was not that good.
[/quote]

Hate to admit it but totally agree with you. When kicking the bag it looks more like a push than a kick that "snaps" at the point of impact.
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Joined: August 19th, 2018, 12:49 am

September 5th, 2018, 5:09 pm #24

[quote="badger01j"]
TBH, I always found the backyard footage a bit of a disappointment, because none of the people including Bruce Lee looked very good. His bag punching was terrible, and the kicking was not that good. 

I thought a few times that if this was how he really was in real life maybe he's not as good as I thought.
[/quote]

As with all observations about Bruce Lee in action (be it film, or otherwise) what each observer sees will greatly depend upon where he or she looking at things from, to begin with.

That now (in) famous bag work of his is a case in point (an example).

Looks to me like he is working on an isolated aspect of his delivery of power.

Much of his 'backyard' footage, or what have you, often has that 'working on something' quality about it.

As if he is studying a thing out and or working on some aspect of it he has deliberately isolated from its whole, towards greatly improving that aspect by itself.

Reminds me of the following two fighters working a bag, the power of each of which Bruce had greatly admired...

Original YouTube Video Title:

Jack Dempsey Training Tribute

Alternate Link:

www.youtube.com/watch?v=zsGn4CJDCKI&app=desktop



Original YouTube Video Title:

Rocky Marciano Rare Training Footage [HD]

Alternate Link:

www.youtube.com/watch?v=8fsGIq0t6YY&app=desktop

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Joined: August 26th, 2018, 8:39 pm

September 5th, 2018, 6:45 pm #25

[quote="eelecurb01"]
[quote="badger01j"]
TBH, I always found the backyard footage a bit of a disappointment, because none of the people including Bruce Lee looked very good. His bag punching was terrible, and the kicking was not that good.
[/quote]

I thought the same thing as you when I saw this video for the first time. But subsequently, I thought like FormlessOne that it was an "isolation training" with its tests and errors. I also note in this footage that Ted Wong's punching techniques are correct. In the case where it's Ted Wong (I'm not sure of that) it proves that Bruce Lee knew what he was doing and what he was teaching.
With the popularization of MMA, we also know today that there is a difference between boxing and striking. Bruce Lee had studied boxing a great deal but in the spirit of striking (Like Machida or Stephen wonder boy Thompson who are able to use some karate shots in MMA to counter boxers). He clearly made the distinction between boxing for the street and boxing for the ring. That's why the way he hits this heavy bag bare knuckle is still amazing. I think to get more information on his way of striking you have to rely on Joe Lewis or some of his students who had a boxing curriculum.
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Joined: July 16th, 2003, 11:43 am

September 6th, 2018, 3:05 pm #26

Bruce looks better with his side kicks in this footage so I believe it was taken later. This was filmed at Coburn's home.

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JTF
Joined: June 21st, 2018, 10:03 pm

September 6th, 2018, 6:09 pm #27

Davis Miller and another individual whose name I can't recall, claimed that Delgado was Lee's first choice for the role of Colt in WOTD. IMO, deciding whether Bruce is impressive or unimpressive in the backyard footage is in the eye of the beholder. For example, when he is kicking the air shield, Bruce asked Herb Jackson several times whether he felt the shock of the kick. In this context, Bruce is working on a singular aspect of that kick. In the Coburn clip, Bruce is demonstrating an entirely different aspect of the side kick which involves the importance of retracting the kick after delivery. In the Oakland days, Bruce called this the Water and the Whip Principle.

I will say that most of Lee's demonstration footage (e.g., 1964/1967 Long Beach, 1968 JR Tournament) is far more impressive than the backyard footage. No matter how many times I watch the footage of Bruce firing the lead hand strike at the JR Tournament, I continue to be in awe of the speed and snap of that punch. That footage is also the most concrete example of Bruce using the Short Arc Principle in delivering the JKD lead straight. In terms of Boxing's importance in the JKD structure, there is an interesting story about Lee's skill level in the Sweet Science.  

Joey Orbillo was a heavyweight boxing contender in the late 60's, and he was Joe Lewis' boxing coach in the early 70's. In 1969, Orbillo was watching Bruce hitting the speed and slip bag at a Los Angeles boxing gym and he commented that given a year to train Bruce in the Sweet Science, he could turn him into the world lightweight champion. Bruce then walked over to the heavy bag and began slamming heavy hooks into the bag. After watching that exhibition, Orbillo commented that he would only need 6 months to turn Bruce into the lightweight champion.   

The biggest influence on Bruce adding boxing to the JKD structure was Leo Fong. Bruce was lamenting to Leo about how his beloved Wing Chun let him down to a degree in the fight with Wong Jack Man. Fong told Lee that he needed to include angular attacks and hooks/uppercuts in his fighting method. The next time that Leo saw Bruce, he was surprised to see Bruce working on these techniques in James Lee's garage. Dan Inosanto states in a videotaped interview with Joe Lewis that Bruce boxed more like Joe Frazier than Muhammad Ali. Constant pressure, hooks to the head/body, and uppercuts on the inside.
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Joined: July 16th, 2003, 11:43 am

September 6th, 2018, 6:49 pm #28

Black Belt Magazine May 1970
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Joined: August 26th, 2018, 8:39 pm

September 6th, 2018, 7:26 pm #29

[quote="JTF"]
Davis Miller and another individual whose name I can't recall, claimed that Delgado was Lee's first choice for the role of Colt in WOTD. IMO, deciding whether Bruce is impressive or unimpressive in the backyard footage is in the eye of the beholder. For example, when he is kicking the air shield, Bruce asked Herb Jackson several times whether he felt the shock of the kick. In this context, Bruce is working on a singular aspect of that kick. In the Coburn clip, Bruce is demonstrating an entirely different aspect of the side kick which involves the importance of retracting the kick after delivery. In the Oakland days, Bruce called this the Water and the Whip Principle.

I will say that most of Lee's demonstration footage (e.g., 1964/1967 Long Beach, 1968 JR Tournament) is far more impressive than the backyard footage. No matter how many times I watch the footage of Bruce firing the lead hand strike at the JR Tournament, I continue to be in awe of the speed and snap of that punch. That footage is also the most concrete example of Bruce using the Short Arc Principle in delivering the JKD lead straight. In terms of Boxing's importance in the JKD structure, there is an interesting story about Lee's skill level in the Sweet Science.  

Joey Orbillo was a heavyweight boxing contender in the late 60's, and he was Joe Lewis' boxing coach in the early 70's. In 1969, Orbillo was watching Bruce hitting the speed and slip bag at a Los Angeles boxing gym and he commented that given a year to train Bruce in the Sweet Science, he could turn him into the world lightweight champion. Bruce then walked over to the heavy bag and began slamming heavy hooks into the bag. After watching that exhibition, Orbillo commented that he would only need 6 months to turn Bruce into the lightweight champion.   

The biggest influence on Bruce adding boxing to the JKD structure was Leo Fong. Bruce was lamenting to Leo about how his beloved Wing Chun let him down to a degree in the fight with Wong Jack Man. Fong told Lee that he needed to include angular attacks and hooks/uppercuts in his fighting method. The next time that Leo saw Bruce, he was surprised to see Bruce working on these techniques in James Lee's garage. Dan Inosanto states in a videotaped interview with Joe Lewis that Bruce boxed more like Joe Frazier than Muhammad Ali. Constant pressure, hooks to the head/body, and uppercuts on the inside.
[/quote]

Thank you for the clarification.
Regarding the lead hand strike, we must not forget that in the old bare-knucle boxing the prize fighters used the vertical fist. It’s not only in wing chun that one strikes in this way. Dempsey, whose work on power has influenced Bruce Lee, also struck like that. According to Teri Tom, Lee was also inspired by Driscoll to develop a powerful jab.
The anecdote about Leo Fong is interesting. In a vintage video I posted in another topic, I found that his trapping techniques fit well with boxing. I also know this interview with Dan Inosanto where he says that Bruce Lee fought like Joe Frazier. Therefore, I wonder how Bruce Lee mixed Frazier's pressure work with "pak and hip" ...
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Joined: July 24th, 2015, 3:19 am

September 6th, 2018, 8:45 pm #30

This video shows Coburn kicking the famous 300lb bag. (15:09)

"All type of knowledge ultimately means self-knowledge"
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