JTF
Joined: June 21st, 2018, 10:03 pm

September 4th, 2018, 11:42 am #11

Pathfinder is correct when surmising that this footage was shot in 1969. In a 1969 Black Belt magazine article, Louis Delgado describes moving from New York to California to specifically train with Bruce Lee. His rationale was that his training regiment was becoming stale, so he contacted Bruce and asked about restructuring his training routine. Delgado lauded Lee for encouraging him to mix-up his training regiment.

The two formed a close friendship and contrary to popular belief, Lee's original choice to play Colt in WOTD was Delgado, not Joe Lewis. A big reason for that thought process were Delgado's kicking skills, skills which are put on display in the backyard videos. So, of the big 4 point fighters that trained with Bruce Lee, Mike Stone was the only one that Bruce did not consider for the role of Colt.  
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Joined: August 26th, 2018, 8:39 pm

September 4th, 2018, 1:18 pm #12

Thanks !
I tried to know the date of this video (which I already knew) to see the evolution of the trappping techniques. We know that at the end of his life Bruce Lee had almost abandoned this part of wing chun. Joe Lewis, for example, reports in an interview: « He might do a single trap or like a little obstruction which you see certain pro boxers doing from time to time. This double and triple trapping stuff is nonsense. » As far as I'm concerned, I always thought the same thing. The trapping of boxing, Muay Thai or MMA are simpler and more effective. The double or triple trapping stuff is a nonsense because after a pak sao / punch for example, the opponent often has only two basics reactions: he moves back by turning his head or he grasps the arm that attacks him. He does not use compound parries to defend himself because the distance is too short. The clinch is more natural in this situation.
In this video, we see that Bruce Lee's private students have learned classical trapping. And we also have the impression that there is a missing link for these techniques to be effective. Maybe the real stuff in this area belongs to the hidden part of JKD. Unquestionably, Bruce Lee had the physical qualities to make it work. Especially in a simplified form close to Muay Thai or MMA. Recently, I discovered a video of Leo Fong which for me, is much more in line with what Bruce Lee could do about trapping. What do you think ?

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Joined: July 16th, 2003, 11:43 am

September 4th, 2018, 3:28 pm #13

Linda is holding Shannon is in the footage at the table and she was born April 1969. I read 1969 somewhere but the Coburn with Bruce footage could be 1970. I don't think it would be later than August 1970 when he had his back injury.
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Joined: July 24th, 2015, 3:19 am

September 4th, 2018, 7:39 pm #14

[quote="JTF"]
Pathfinder is correct when surmising that this footage was shot in 1969. In a 1969 Black Belt magazine article, Louis Delgado describes moving from New York to California to specifically train with Bruce Lee. His rationale was that his training regiment was becoming stale, so he contacted Bruce and asked about restructuring his training routine. Delgado lauded Lee for encouraging him to mix-up his training regiment.

The two formed a close friendship and contrary to popular belief, Lee's original choice to play Colt in WOTD was Delgado, not Joe Lewis. A big reason for that thought process were Delgado's kicking skills, skills which are put on display in the backyard videos. So, of the big 4 point fighters that trained with Bruce Lee, Mike Stone was the only one that Bruce did not consider for the role of Colt.  
[/quote]

The footage is from different years, and spans from 1967 to about 1970. Yes, some of it is from 1969.
"All type of knowledge ultimately means self-knowledge"
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Joined: January 17th, 2014, 1:19 am

September 4th, 2018, 9:33 pm #15

[quote="JTF"]

The two formed a close friendship and contrary to popular belief, Lee's original choice to play Colt in WOTD was Delgado, not Joe Lewis. A big reason for that thought process were Delgado's kicking skills, skills which are put on display in the backyard videos. So, of the big 4 point fighters that trained with Bruce Lee, Mike Stone was the only one that Bruce did not consider for the role of Colt.  
[/quote]
Any other source claiming Delgado was Bruce Lee's first choice to portray his Way of the Dragon opponent!
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Joined: December 31st, 2017, 6:43 am

September 4th, 2018, 10:46 pm #16

Joe Lewis only learned basic traps, which he says by PREFERENCE that he prefers to just punch and kick. He also learned a more kickboxing style of JKD, similar to what most of the Los Angeles branch of JKD was doing, except Joe Lewis was probably the most talented one among them all. Bruce Lee taught Joe Lewis basic traps, but Joe Lewis still preferred punching and kicking. By preference, Joe Lewis said he feels that trapping is useless and he never trained much in that range BY preference. Once establishing that it is by preference, it means his JKD is different and doesn't focus much on it. However to other JKD fighters, it's very useful.

Joe Lewis pretty much knows most of the basics in JKD, and some advanced techniques such as broken rhythm and the mentality of a fighter. Joe Lewis has said that hand trapping has helped though in certain fights he had, and he even goes into depth on basic trapping in his JKD tape.

Personally for me as a JKD fighter, I wouldn't say it is useless, it's a useful tool to whip out and keep your opponent guessing. It also mixes in well with boxing. You can do 2-3 step trapping techniques if you have proper sensitivity, confidence, practice, and timing. If you are nervous, fearful, or aloof, then the trapping will be very rigid and stiff. I've seen people do 5 strikes in a blinding second, and it was incredible. I've personally sparred with some Muay thai and MMA guys and I've gotten a chance to smack them around many times. They always try to clinch or attempt to take me down, because they don't know wtf is going on when they getting smacked around in that close range. The thing about trapping is, it works, but watch out for the take down and clinch, because if you don't effectively defend or attack, then they will get you. If you get them good before they can clinch of take you down, then they have to back off and can't get you until the next time you close the gap and engage.

Many JKD guys say trapping doesn't work and it's because they simply haven't had enough intentional training and application of it... many just go back to the basics which is punching and kicking, which isn't bad, but don't talk shit about something that you don't even train and take seriously to begin with.
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Joined: August 26th, 2018, 8:39 pm

September 5th, 2018, 6:53 am #17

In Summary: We know that Bruce Lee was hiding some essential points of JKD. Do we know, for example, what was the "essence" of the trapping techniques he used? I do not speak of simple traps that can be found in Muay Thai or MMA. I'm thinking particularly of the missing link that Jessie Glover and James DeMile are talking about.

Among Bruce Lee's students, there were also boxers like Dan Lee and Richard Bustillo. Are there any interviews where they explain how they integrated trapping into boxing?
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Joined: December 31st, 2017, 6:43 am

September 5th, 2018, 7:36 am #18

Dan Lee and Richard Bustillo are Los Angeles era students so no they didn't do much hand trapping at all, Bruce Lee didn't share much of it during those years with those guys you listed above.
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Joined: August 26th, 2018, 8:39 pm

September 5th, 2018, 7:54 am #19

Many questions come to my mind on this subject. For example : Do we have more information on this famous principle of "pak and hip" ("pak and hit ? ", "pak and blast?"). Another one : When he returned to Hong Kong, Bruce Lee reconnected with Wong Shun Leung and other wing chun guys. Did this make him reconsider the trapping part of the JKD?
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Joined: December 19th, 2017, 9:38 pm

September 5th, 2018, 1:52 pm #20

You can get some ideas about the 'pak (sao)' and hip if you listen to the Patrick Strong DVD. He says that the first contact made should be a powerful and distracting shock, which allows the follow up to be a KO type blow. So the pak would be done with the intent, say, to break the opponent's arm near the elbow and then the follow-up would be a penetrating punch or kick to the knock-out.
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