Joined: December 19th, 2017, 9:38 pm

September 10th, 2018, 11:06 pm #11

^^ Sorry but I can not make sense of your posting. Chi Kung is not a type of 'inner strength' that you can apply to striking. If anything it's an anecdotal traditional method of healing and meditation.

I do not think BL had any interest in 'Chi Kung'. I don't know where you got that. He spent some time debunking many Oriental systems of fighting but he didn't buy into their mythos.
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Joined: August 19th, 2018, 12:49 am

September 11th, 2018, 12:50 am #12

[quote="badger01j"]
If you like PS's words there's a 4 DVD set out from him. I found an inexpensive set on Amazon. He has some things that nobody else seems to discuss. I have to assume the don't know. Can he do it? It's not clear. Does he know the entire method and internals? It's not clear. He discusses but doesn't have all the essentials. 

He says he worried about BL using the 'adrenal' thing too often but doesn't say what that is exactly. You'd think, given that he's selling the DVDs and BL and even that era is long past that if he knows he should tell. I don't think he's training any more - he's got to be late 50s now.

I think the 'adrenal thing' is a combination of chemicals and self-hypnosis, but we don't know for sure.
[/quote]

Not sure I agree with his findings. Again, I was merely posting that writing because you mentioned the Pak Sao comment.

To me, Bruce had simply been asserting that he had built every aspect of his art on interception.

As in his comment "I call it jeet kune do just because I want to emphasize the notion" (or concept) "of deciding at the right moment in order to stop the enemy at the gate."

THAT... is a frequent...theme, throughout his descriptions, and in his writings, about his art.

As for the adrenal thing, that's about what Bruce had referred to as "adrenal flow."

That physical energy Boxers worry about losing some of, should they engage in sex, the night before a fight.

That kind of "energy."

In other words, Brucevhad found a means of tapping into the "flight or fight" adrenal build up response, at will.

You see this in his fight scenes. Which is why he not only looks so out of his mind, but so in the moment, during his fight scenes.

That flight-fight response that accompanies a dual sense of "what the heck have I just gotten myself into!" - "you have just messed with the wrong person!"

And adrenal flow is very...draining. Thus, the exhaustion after it passes.

Anyway, that is my take on such things...
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Joined: August 26th, 2018, 8:39 pm

September 11th, 2018, 5:53 am #13

[quote="badger01j"]
^^ Sorry but I can not make sense of your posting. Chi Kung is not a type of 'inner strength' that you can apply to striking. If anything it's an anecdotal traditional method of healing and meditation.

I do not think BL had any interest in 'Chi Kung'. I don't know where you got that. He spent some time debunking many Oriental systems of fighting but he didn't buy into their mythos.
[/quote]

I got that from Jessie Glover (Between wing chun and JKD). But I did not speak about the mystical aspect of chi kung (kata, chi work, etc.). Because apart from the "adrenaline burger" I do not know other types of energy that Bruce Lee used. I think rather like Patrick Strong, that he could have developed a kinesthetic awareness that characterizes chi kung to adapt it to the biomechanical principles he had studied. This would have allowed him to better internalize what he was doing to be stronger and faster. Many athletes today do this type of training (yoga, meditation, etc.) for their physical and mental preparation.  Maybe in this area, Bruce Lee was also a pioneer.
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Joined: August 26th, 2018, 8:39 pm

September 11th, 2018, 11:48 am #14

[quote="FormlessOne"]
[quote="badger01j"]
If you like PS's words there's a 4 DVD set out from him. I found an inexpensive set on Amazon. He has some things that nobody else seems to discuss. I have to assume the don't know. Can he do it? It's not clear. Does he know the entire method and internals? It's not clear. He discusses but doesn't have all the essentials. 

He says he worried about BL using the 'adrenal' thing too often but doesn't say what that is exactly. You'd think, given that he's selling the DVDs and BL and even that era is long past that if he knows he should tell. I don't think he's training any more - he's got to be late 50s now.

I think the 'adrenal thing' is a combination of chemicals and self-hypnosis, but we don't know for sure.
[/quote]

Not sure I agree with his findings. Again, I was merely posting that writing because you mentioned the Pak Sao comment.

To me, Bruce had simply been asserting that he had built every aspect of his art on interception.

As in his comment "I call it jeet kune do just because I want to emphasize the notion" (or concept) "of deciding at the right moment in order to stop the enemy at the gate."

THAT... is a frequent...theme, throughout his descriptions, and in his writings, about his art.

As for the adrenal thing, that's about what Bruce had referred to as "adrenal flow."

That physical energy Boxers worry about losing some of, should they engage in sex, the night before a fight.

That kind of "energy."

In other words, Brucevhad found a means of tapping into the "flight or fight" adrenal build up response, at will.

You see this in his fight scenes. Which is why he not only looks so out of his mind, but so in the moment, during his fight scenes.

That flight-fight response that accompanies a dual sense of  "what the heck have I just gotten myself into!" - "you have just messed with the wrong person!"

And adrenal flow is very...draining. Thus, the exhaustion after it passes.

Anyway, that is my take on such things...
[/quote]

We can ask several interesting questions about what Patrick Strong says, especially if we consider that he is not a mythomaniac.
As far as I am concerned, I specify that I don’t practice tai chi or chi kung. I practice for many years different systems of grappling and kickboxing that I like to test in street scenario training (against one or more opponents, with or without weapons, in very different situations). Therefore, I am not a mystic.
About two years ago, I had an interesting meeting. A friend of mine introduced me to a woman who was a tai chi / chi kung teacher. We exchanged some ideas and then she showed me how she did the « push hands. » I told her that it was not magic and that we also practiced this kind of hand fighting in wrestling. No big deal. I then showed her the pummeling drill of the Greco-Roman style. She watched me do the drill and after a while, she put her hand on my back to rectify my position by saying: "try like that". Instantly, I felt rooted in the ground with a sense of power that I had not experienced before. After that, we talked about biomechanics, body alignment, tendon work versus muscle training and breathing. All this constitutes the concrete basis of her practice. She did not tell me anything about "chi". I later found that I could adapt her basic principles on almost all my techniques. Which brings me now to a second anecdote.
One of my friends is almost blind. He only sees with one eye and very weakly. He followed a few years ago a program to develop his other senses because unfortunately, one day will arrive when he will be totally blind. Among the activities of the program, he practiced fencing which was very profitable to him. That's why today he has a very developed tactile sensitivity as well as an excellent hearing. The results he got with this program are so surprising that I call him "Daredevil". But as he regretted not being able to practice fencing anymore, I offered him to train with me in boxing for distance appreciation and grappling for sensitivity (for that, Rickson Gracie's invisible jiu jitsu is perfect). Previously, I had already discovered the benefits of shadow boxing in slow motion with my eyes closed (Because of the tai chi woman). That's why I thought this kind of training would be particularly well suited to his disability. So, my friend is used to train without resorting to his eyes. But in addition to a slow motion workout, I added a work in resistance so that it can better internalize its movements. That is to say that when I make him work on his jab, I press at the same time on his fist with my hand while he develops his punch in slow motion. In this way, he has a better perception of the biomechanics that is activated for the execution of the technique. This really gives very good results ... for me too ! This led me to a paradoxical but obvious conclusion : it is in training slowly that one progresses quickly ...
I discovered many other things in relation to these two experiences. Notably, it was possible to internalize an hard combat system without going through the Tai Chi / Chi Kung stuff, which I still do not practice. Today, I am exclusively interested in the physical principles of alignment, body structure, deep muscle work, isometric training and the correct practice of breathing (not meditation, I do not know what it is). That's why I thought that Bruce Lee, who knew his martial heritage very well, may have been able to do the same kind of research by trying to adapt the inner part of the gung fu to a realistic training. But this is just a guess. I don't think that in the future we will have more information on this subject ...
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Joined: December 19th, 2017, 9:38 pm

September 11th, 2018, 7:05 pm #15

^^ That’s an interesting background. I’m familiar with all of your references from Rickson’s Invisible ju-jitsu to the Tai Ji work.

You are certainly on to something and I really appreciate your sharing the information on your friend and the fencing and boxing work to aid him for the future.

As to what BL was doing, I base most of my assumptions on what James Demile discussed in his books on the Tao of WCD, and the 1 and 3” punch. He talks about helping BL access his inner adrenaline state by the use of hypnosis and self-hypnosis and the development of a ‘kill word’. I think this is what BL was using to bring up his instant rage in his movies - I think it was more than acting, though one wonders how he did it if they had to do a lot of ‘takes’.

I also think he used various performance enhancing methods, including supplements, and chemicals and nutrition. He took that route in my opinion because he already had a very hot temper so it wasn’t much of a stretch to work on being able to call that up instantly to bolster his energy.

Pat Strong and others talk about him using it too much. I think Bob Wall mentioned it and in Chuck Norris’ book he talks about the fact that BL ‘dabbled’ in using steroids being well known among his training partners. I was surprised to read this and of course I generally take such accounts with a grain of salt but we now have Norris, and obviously Bleecker talking about it. I think you can tell that Joe Lewis used them and he was around that culture in Southern Ca.

Why BL put his health at risk to do things like this I don’t know. He was much too worried about being challenged when he first got to the US and found people much bigger and stronger than he was.

In my conversations with James Demile, I asked about the oriental concepts of Fa-jing/fajin and what he was doing and he said he had never heard of that nor had he seen any of Mike Sigman’s videos on the subject.

Anyway good post and thanks again for sharing.
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Joined: August 26th, 2018, 8:39 pm

September 11th, 2018, 8:41 pm #16

Regarding hypnosis, I read a long time ago in Black Belt magazine that James DeMile had indeed taught this technique to Bruce Lee. And I think, if I remember correctly, he said that the results were mixed because he had a very versatile mind which prevented him from remaining calm and focused only on one suggestion. Nevertheless, Bruce practiced at least some form of self-suggestion by writing phrases that served him as leitmotive such as "Walk on". I don’t know how long he did that, nor at what period of his life. However, what I'm sure of is that when he talks about "liberation", it's because he has absorbed a lot of things from Krishnamurti. But Krishnamurti, who wanted to free his fellow creatures from any form of conditioning, disliked hypnosis. For him, this method helped to keep the individual in an automatic thought system. He did not approve any pattern or any form of thought (positive or not) since all his teaching also evolved around the « Non-thinking ». So, I wonder how Bruce addressed this contradiction ? May be with his yin/yang mentality ?... Anyway, as I don’t know Mike Sigman, I'm going to take a look at his videos.
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Joined: July 25th, 2015, 1:24 pm

September 11th, 2018, 10:27 pm #17

[quote="badger01j"]
^^ That’s an interesting background. I’m familiar with all of your references from Rickson’s Invisible ju-jitsu to the Tai Ji work.

You are certainly on to something and I really appreciate your sharing the information on your friend and the fencing and boxing work to aid him for the future.

As to what BL was doing, I base most of my assumptions on what James Demile discussed in his books on the Tao of WCD, and the 1 and 3” punch. He talks about helping BL access his inner adrenaline state by the use of hypnosis and self-hypnosis and the development of a ‘kill word’. I think this is what BL was using to bring up his instant rage in his movies - I think it was more than acting, though one wonders how he did it if they had to do a lot of ‘takes’.

I also think he used various performance enhancing methods, including supplements, and chemicals and nutrition. He took that route in my opinion because he already had a very hot temper so it wasn’t much of a stretch to work on being able to call that up instantly to bolster his energy.

Pat Strong and others talk about him using it too much. I think Bob Wall mentioned it and in Chuck Norris’ book he talks about the fact that BL ‘dabbled’ in using steroids being well known among his training partners. I was surprised to read this and of course I generally take such accounts with a grain of salt but we now have Norris, and obviously Bleecker talking about it. I think you can tell that Joe Lewis used them and he was around that culture in Southern Ca.

Why BL put his health at risk to do things like this I don’t know. He was much too worried about being challenged when he first got to the US and found people much bigger and stronger than he was.

In my conversations with James Demile, I asked about the oriental concepts of Fa-jing/fajin and what he was doing and he said he had never heard of that nor had he seen any of Mike Sigman’s videos on the subject.

Anyway good post and thanks again for sharing.
[/quote]

Chuck Norris really praises Bruce lee in his books, "one of the strongest men he knew". "a small man that could easily defeat a giant with skill and highly developed Ki" "extremely capable martial artist" and so on. I remember reading also "Some suspected that Bruces well known steroid use killed him" ... but that could be the cortisone steroid injections that he took for his back. I do not remember him mentioning Anabolic steroids in his book.
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Joined: August 19th, 2018, 12:49 am

September 12th, 2018, 3:10 am #18

Former Boxer, Julio Caesar Chavez, was once asked of what he thought of while working the Heavy Bag - "of my opponent," he replied "of how that my having to train so much, in order to be in shape to beat him is costing me a great deal of time away from my family...and I think of how I am going to make him pay for that..."

That, in a sense, is "a kill word."

One which, deliberately converted into a conscious, worded phrase, one might apply at will as a means of setting off its intended state in one, might be the words "what you're costing me!"

That...is a hypnotic state.

This things really are...that simple.
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Joined: August 19th, 2018, 12:49 am

September 12th, 2018, 3:14 am #19

"There is no mystery about my style. My movements are simple, direct and non-classical. The extraordinary part of it lies in its simplicity. Every movement in Jeet Kune-Do is being so of itself. There is nothing artificial about it. I always believe that the easy way is the right way. Jeet Kune-Do is simply the direct expression of one’s feelings with the minimum of movements and energy. The closer to the true way of Kung Fu, the less wastage of expression there is."
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Joined: December 19th, 2017, 9:38 pm

September 12th, 2018, 2:27 pm #20

[quote="a1z1"]

Chuck Norris really praises Bruce lee in his books, "one of the strongest men he knew". "a small man that could easily defeat a giant with skill and highly developed Ki" "extremely capable martial artist" and so on. I remember reading also "Some suspected that Bruces well known steroid use killed him" ... but that could be the cortisone steroid injections that he took for his back. I do not remember him mentioning Anabolic steroids in his book.
[/quote]

Well, to me, when a martial artist and physical trainer talks about 'steroid use' they are not going to be talking about cortico-steroids, which are not anabolic. But here's the exact quote. I don't think Chuck was sophisticated enough or had sufficient medical background experience to realize that 'cortisone' is a type of steroid though a non-anabolic kind.

“Others suggested that Bruce's well-known experimentation with steroids may have led to his death”

To be honest, I can't really tell if Norris is saying HE was aware of the experimentation, or if he is basically quoting people like Bleecker. You might infer by the use of the word 'well-known' that it was well-known to Norris, otherwise he could have simply said 'experimentation with' and left that qualifier out.

At any rate the 'others' who have suggested it (Bleecker) talks about both and he does consider the cortico-steroids the major culprit from what I read. So there's that.

I think Chuck is not being precise and is actually talking about anabolic steroids because as a layperson he would be thinking of those as dangerous. Corticosteroids are not really thought of as dangerous by most people, though there are side-effects.

To go back on track I think BL used a combination of a pre-programmed 'kill word' which would cause an internal cascade of neurochemicals and hormones and instant 'rage' similar to the apocryphal type mentioned as 'mothers lifting cars off of their children', and he was harnessing this in addition to the performance-enhancing effects of anabolics to increase his hitting power and thus fighting ability. It's a theory...based on real events. :)

YMMV
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