Joined: December 19th, 2017, 9:38 pm

July 9th, 2018, 4:07 pm #261

There are a few videos of Delgado on YT.  He's a small guy and doesn't look that formidable.Though he may have 'sparred' with BL he did not 'fight' with him. I do think Lewis downplayed BL's skills, but I have to agree with the concept that until you have had your chin tested you are not known as a 'fighter'.
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JTF
Joined: June 21st, 2018, 10:03 pm

July 9th, 2018, 7:58 pm #262

BADGER: Louis Delgado was 5'6" 150 pounds and he was one of the best East Coast point fighters of his era. I would argue that the nature of Bruce Lee's sparring sessions with his students and with Norris/Delgado were just as relevant as any point match. It's important to remember that Bruce sparred all-out every Sunday with his students at the Chinatown kwoon. There was far more contact and testing of chins during those sparring sessions than there was in any point match in the 1960's.

It also appears that you're letting Joe Lewis off the hook for his contradictory statements about the definition of a fighter. In some interviews, he states that point matches had nothing to do with fighting whereas in other interviews, he labels Chuck Norris as a fighter. Last time I checked, Chuck did not compete in full contact/kickboxing matches and stating that Delgado was not a great fighter is a classic case of avoiding the question.

In terms of the chin testing argument, that has no real connection to the point fighting world. The rules of the day did not allow for contact to the face, so point fighters such as Mike Stone decided to bend the rules by beginning each match by striking his opponent in the face. Stone would be warned for the illegal blow, yet most of his opponents would be too psyched out to compete at a high level. In essence, you could have a glass chin and still be a successful point fighter.   

Joe also conveniently leaves out Bruce Lee winning the High School Boxing Championship against defending champion Gary Elms. Bruce had no formal boxing training, yet he laced it up and risked getting knocked out. In several interviews, Joe states that "Bruce liked contact," and legitimate tough guys such as James DeMile, Leo Fong, and Larry Hartsell swore by Lee's abilities as a fighter.

I would have taken Joe Lewis more seriously if he had stated that Bruce was a greater martial artist than fighter and/or that he wasn't a great fighter. To dismiss him outright, however, reminds me of the fact that Bruce had more street fights in Seattle than Joe had in his entire life. There is a reason why Yip Man said that Bruce was "fighting crazy" and/or why Bruce asked Seattle student Skip Ellsworth to accompany him to various local dives late at night.
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Joined: July 16th, 2003, 11:43 am

July 9th, 2018, 9:25 pm #263

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Joined: December 19th, 2017, 9:38 pm

July 10th, 2018, 2:55 pm #264

Joe Lewis is on record saying he dismissed the 'kung fu' stylists back in the day. He also had little respect for anyone. So it should tell you something when he suddenly became an avid 'student' or partner of a little 5'7 Chinese kung fu stylist. If BL had not be a formidable partner Joe would not have given him the time of day.

You have to read between the lines of Lewis' statements.

I still have to agree with him that if you have not had your chin tested you can not assess the durability of a person as a fighter. As evidence, I cite Monster Man Everette Eddy who was tearing up at light contact tournaments and when he went into the ring in a contact match was almost immediately KO'ed and he never fought again. Evidently he had a glass jaw.
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A O
Joined: July 10th, 2018, 5:03 pm

July 10th, 2018, 5:27 pm #265

Just finished reading Mr. Polly's book, a very good and well balanced read about Bruce's life. Although, some parts I disagree with specifically the heatstroke (hyperthermia) theory being the cause of his death.

Mainly because I have my own theory on what caused his death which I'd be willing to bet on if Bruce's remains was ever exhumed as being the real true cause.

However, overall I found it an enjoyable read and account nonetheless.
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Joined: January 17th, 2014, 1:19 am

July 10th, 2018, 7:09 pm #266

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Joined: January 17th, 2014, 1:19 am

July 17th, 2018, 12:30 am #267

Polly's doubling down on the heat stroke theory.
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Joined: December 19th, 2017, 9:38 pm

July 17th, 2018, 12:43 pm #268

[quote="A O"]
Just finished reading Mr. Polly's book, a very good and well balanced read about Bruce's life. Although, some parts I disagree with specifically the heatstroke (hyperthermia) theory being the cause of his death.

Mainly because I have my own theory on what caused his death which I'd be willing to bet on if Bruce's remains was ever exhumed as being the real true cause.

However, overall I found it an enjoyable read and account nonetheless.
[/quote]

I think the best description of BL's death is that it is 'multi-factorial' or of many causes and to infer that it is (just) due to low sodium (Hyponatremia) is an over simplification. Yes, there may have been low sodium, but there may also have been a high blood urea nitrogen (BUN) which was reported as being 92 mg/dL, and thought to be a lab error, since normal is 7-20 mg/dL (milligrams per deciliter).

There is ample evidence that he was an epileptic and was not taking his dilantin (it may have a side effect that BL did not like) and indeed when you look at the presentation, loss of 20 pounds in a short period, less than 1% body fat (according to one report) it would be classed as significant anorexia.

I'm sure people have seen this report but it's worth a re-reading:
http://www.theforensicexaminer.com/2016 ... li_637.php
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Joined: December 19th, 2017, 9:38 pm

July 17th, 2018, 1:03 pm #269

Sorry for the double posting, buy another thing occurs to me. We know that anorexia and 'body dysmorphia' (BD) is a common co-complaint. In other words, anorexics do not see their own body in the proper manner, and it appears to them, paradoxically, that they are 'over fat', when indeed they are the opposite. We also see BD in body builders in which they see their own bodies incorrectly and self-diagnose as 'too thin' or too weak and are actually compelled to exercise (similarly, do anorexics) to correct this delusion.

We often praise, as a society, those who are thin, or overly muscled, and we are not quick to accept that there may be pathological syndromes behind this. In fact it is disconcerting to realize or imagine that BL was actually pathological because we have this admiration of being muscular and with low body fat. I don't think he could have handled it very well if he had started gaining weight or body fat as a natural result of aging.

A person who has access to prescription medications and other illicit substances will start self-medicating severely to combat this kind of delusion of body shape and composition even when faced with life-endangering symptoms. They may actually consider 'weakness' as a sign they need to exercise more, because it's coming to think that exercise=strength, when in reality we gain strength (after stress) during sleep and rest.

It's entirely possible that a side effect of taking Dilanton for epilepsy caused drowsiness which would be very upsetting for a highly driven individual and BL may have thought he didn't need to be on it continually, and hated the side-effect. None was found in the blood at autopsy.

There's also some speculation that he had a form of 'Addison's disease' which does upset the normal sodium and electrolyte balance in the body, and indeed, his finding was excessively browning of the skin (in the forensic report linked above), which is a sign of Addison's disease, and again as a society we find it attractive when a person has a tan, but in fact it's a symptom of the disease to have this happen.

Thus there's some evidence that body dysmorphia and social pressure to -appear- healthy and fit may have been a roller coaster to a bad state which could have exacerbated BL's condition (which was characterized as SUDEP, or sudden death due to epilepsy (see the report above).
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