JTF
Joined: 10:03 PM - Jun 21, 2018

2:45 AM - Jul 23, 2018 #11

The irony of Bruce Lee's skill set was that the point fighting system suited him to a tee. Everyone from Bob Wall to Bob Bremer stated that Bruce was obsessed with bridging the gap and Joe Lewis admitted that Lee had the fastest hands he had ever seen. Bridging the gap and having faster hands and/or feet were the skills used by Chuck Norris and Bill Wallace to defeat Joe Lewis in 5 of 6 point fight matches.

In the kickboxing arena and/or on the streets, Lewis would most likely mop the floor with both men, but point fighters have always wanted it both ways. They want to be able to tab themselves as "real" fighters because they competed in point tournaments, knock Lee's skills because he didn't compete in games of tag, and claim that a lack of experience in full contact and/or street fighting is a non-issue when it comes to judging their combative skills.

The following is a complaint about point fighting leveled by Bruce Lee to Seattle Era student Patrick Strong.

One of Bruce's major complaints having to do with karate tournaments was how the fighters fought like two chickens pecking. Back and forth. First one, pecks, and then the other. Then a couple of pecks from one, and a peck or two back. The tournament fighter was only good for one, two, or three consecutive moves, at best. And then  if the other fighter mixed in with him, his motor would stop and he would have to break away and start again. What I see in Bruce is someone who can deliver impact without taking a rebound that would stop up his motor. What you really want is your motor to continue with all the shock and rebound going into your opponent and so little coming back to you that you keep moving with full speed, power, and constant body loading and position.  
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Joined: 9:38 PM - Dec 19, 2017

2:20 PM - Jul 23, 2018 #12

^^ good analysis. I've read that comment by Pat Strong. It's not clear why even good fighters will seem to 'take turns' alike that 'pecking' analogy but it would have fit right in to the broken rhythm tactics.

But, I'll give you another reason why BL would not have done point fighting and why he was very wise not to do so.

I don't know if you've ever done point fighting but winning at that is an art unto itself. It is not a measure of how good anyone is but a measure of how well they know the judges (yes fame is a factor) and how well they know how judges call points (the winning technique is not always called correctly as you have four judges and a ref and sometimes one of the judges is a teammate of one of the fighters).

You've seen how after a muddled exchange both fighters will hold up their arms and dance around celebrating? That is to influence the judges, since nobody really knows who 'won' a clash.

Had BL entered into point sparring and had bad judging or had a clash with someone being aggressive and cheating by making contact then he could have been judged to have lost. It was a lose-lose proposition for him. 

If he won they'd say it was favoritism, if he lost they'd say he was no good and a second-rate tournament fighter beat the 'great' Bruce Lee. 
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JTF
Joined: 10:03 PM - Jun 21, 2018

9:36 PM - Jul 23, 2018 #13

BADGER: Excellent analysis. It reminds me of when Dan Inosanto first met Bruce Lee. One of the topics of discussion was Lee's opinion that Dan should have been given credit for scoring a winning point during a match at the 1964 Long Beach Internationals. Bruce told Dan that the judges simply didn't see Dan's rear hand strike due to the speed of the punch.
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Joined: 1:24 PM - Jul 25, 2015

8:51 PM - Jul 24, 2018 #14

[quote="JTF"]
BADGER: Excellent analysis. It reminds me of when Dan Inosanto first met Bruce Lee. One of the topics of discussion was Lee's opinion that Dan should have been given credit for scoring a winning point during a match at the 1964 Long Beach Internationals. Bruce told Dan that the judges simply didn't see Dan's rear hand strike due to the speed of the punch.
[/quote]
I have heard that Dan was like the fastest guy in the world , second only to Bruce.
how true was that ?
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JTF
Joined: 10:03 PM - Jun 21, 2018

11:02 PM - Jul 24, 2018 #15

Dan Inosanto was a high school track star who excelled in the 100 meter dash. According to Paul Vunak, his sifu had the fastest hands he had ever seen. It's interesting to note that Dan has stated that the Bruce Lee of 1970, was faster than the Bruce Lee of 1964.
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Joined: 1:24 PM - Jul 25, 2015

11:25 PM - Jul 24, 2018 #16

[quote="JTF"]
Dan Inosanto was a high school track star who excelled in the 100 meter dash. According to Paul Vunak, his sifu had the fastest hands he had ever seen. It's interesting to note that Dan has stated that the Bruce Lee of 1970, was faster than the Bruce Lee of 1964.
[/quote]

He said that Bruce, when he last saw him, had reached a level that was almost unbelievable.
I think Paul said that Dan was the fastest he had ever seen .
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Joined: 9:38 PM - Dec 19, 2017

3:46 PM - Jul 25, 2018 #17

[quote="a1z1"]
[quote="JTF"]
BADGER: Excellent analysis. It reminds me of when Dan Inosanto first met Bruce Lee. One of the topics of discussion was Lee's opinion that Dan should have been given credit for scoring a winning point during a match at the 1964 Long Beach Internationals. Bruce told Dan that the judges simply didn't see Dan's rear hand strike due to the speed of the punch.
[/quote]
I have heard that Dan was like the fastest guy in the world , second only to Bruce.
how true was that ?
[/quote]

"Fastest" is a relative term. There are, as most here know, several types of speed. Running speed is one thing and may be related to the skill at hearing the starting pistol (in the 100m dash), skill at coming off the starting blocks, the type of surface and experience and if you have good competitors to push you. It may be a factor of having 'fast twitch muscles (this is debated) in the legs'.

You also have 'MPH speed', 'initiation speed', response speed, and then the ability to intuit what the opponent is doing.

When Jesse Glover talked about BL throwing a punch at a reflex timer he gave two speeds, 0.05 seconds (50 milliseconds) at 3 feet (the punch starts when a light comes on and the stops when the person hits the pad), and 0.08 seconds (80 milliseconds).

Jesse said that he came in around 0.18 or 180 milliseconds. Contrast this to the time it takes someone to blink which is about 300-400 milliseconds or eight times longer than BL's punch response at three feet. In theory he could literally wait until you start to blink then throw a punch and you'd never see it.

Now as to whether Guro Dan was this fast I would say no, he was probably in the range of an athletic male in his 20s, or about 200 milliseconds. Why? Well for one thing if he was nearly as fast as BL, Dan would not have been so impressed.

Now Dan did talk about speed and he said as you gain experience you develop what he called 'fast eyes'. IOW you are very quick to conceptualize what the other person is doing. Compare to watching a soccer game the first time. You really don't know what you're seeing or where to look. After you have seen some games and know the rules and positions your eyes can take it in and process it.

I think Dan had skills, among the the ability to let other people bring their A game and the ability to figure out how things might fit together, but I do not think he had super high attributes, he just kept at is and his flow was very, very good. He was a good teacher and he was good at static demonstrations.

He freely admits he's a martial historian more than a fighter and he was not that interested in fighting or competing. I met him in the early 80s at a demo and when he came in there was a guy manning the front desk. He just looked at Dan walking by not knowing who he was and he turned to the gym owner and said in a rather astonished tone 'That guy could kill you'. Pretty interesting.
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Joined: 1:06 PM - Nov 12, 2017

3:27 PM - Jul 26, 2018 #18

[quote][quote="badger01j"]
"Fastest" is a relative term. There are, as most here know, several types of speed. Running speed is one thing and may be related to the skill at hearing the starting pistol (in the 100m dash), skill at coming off the starting blocks, the type of surface and experience and if you have good competitors to push you. It may be a factor of having 'fast twitch muscles (this is debated) in the legs'.

You also have 'MPH speed', 'initiation speed', response speed, and then the ability to intuit what the opponent is doing.

[b]When Jesse Glover talked about BL throwing a punch at a reflex timer he gave two speeds, 0.05 seconds (50 milliseconds) at 3 feet (the punch starts when a light comes on and the stops when the person hits the pad), and 0.08 seconds (80 milliseconds).

Jesse said that he came in around 0.18 or 180 milliseconds. Contrast this to the time it takes someone to blink which is about 300-400 milliseconds or eight  times longer than BL's punch response at three feet. In theory he could literally wait until you start to blink then throw a punch and you'd never see it.[/b][/quote]




Here we have to seperate about punching and reacting and just punching.

Watch James DeMile explaining about motion and reaction timer.

1) MOTION or SPEED TIMER:


2) REACTION TIMER:



Fortunately i was able to talk with DeMile about this subject in October 2012 via E-Mail, and he told me those times of:
a) 0,05 seconds (50 Milliseconds aka five hundreths of a second) from 3 feet away
b) 0,08 seconds (80 Milliseconds aka eight hundrhets of a second) from 5 feet away

was only motion/speed, and not reaction.

So just what you see in Clip Nr. 1 shows how they measured Lee´s punching/closing speed, not Nr. 2.
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Joined: 1:24 PM - Jul 25, 2015

12:07 PM - Jul 30, 2018 #19

[quote="badger01j"]
[quote="a1z1"]
[quote="JTF"]


He freely admits he's a martial historian more than a fighter and he was not that interested in fighting or competing. I met him in the early 80s at a demo and when he came in there was a guy manning the front desk. He just looked at Dan walking by not knowing who he was and he turned to the gym owner and said in a rather astonished tone 'That guy could kill you'. Pretty interesting.
[/quote]

He has competed , what was his record ?
Also from what I heard he did award black belts to some named martial artists of his time.
Plus he was a small football player which shows that the guy probably was real tough physically as well as mentally.
What do you think that man saw in Dan that made him say that he could 'kill you' ?
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