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Ephraim Cooper
Corporal
Joined: August 12th, 2017, 9:47 am

May 10th, 2018, 3:06 pm #101

Well now.  Things have been quiet of late while I build up my bank account so that I can get hold of a replacement stock.

In the meantime I have been working on the barrel bands.  Not too bad apart from one that had come apart as the welding had failed.  That's been put right and I'll only have to bring it back to size so as to have a full set. 

Another thing I have been tackling are the nipples.  Both are well and truly frozen in so I have been trying to free them.  I looked at some  videos and decided that straight fluted extractors would be the best way to try and get them out, so a wait ensued until a set arrived.  On trying to use them I have found one problem.  The nipples are hard and none of the drill bits I have will even touch them, one even burnt out and snapped off such was the heat generated.  I've cut that one down to the bolster and the hole is free again.  Unfortunately the smallest extractor is just a touch undersized so I will have to go up one size, a good thing as the extractor is a lot sturdier and I have been told that if one breaks off then you really are in trouble.  So another attempt and this time I am going to try tungsten carbide bits.  If that doesn't do the trick then I am out of ideas.  A small grindstone might be a solution but I can see lots of opportunities to mess up the guns like that so that will be a last resort.
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old tanker
Lance Corporal
old tanker
Lance Corporal
Joined: September 20th, 2017, 2:06 pm

May 10th, 2018, 4:03 pm #102

Left handed drill bits are often useful for this job. Another useful tool is a  woodpecker  Easy out is somewhat of a misnomer, you are only a snap way from a three day ordeal. break one and your best bet is a machine shop that does EDM.
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The Double D
Veteran of the Regiment
The Double D
Veteran of the Regiment
Joined: March 11th, 2003, 5:45 am

May 10th, 2018, 4:35 pm #103

Well it  sound like the nipple is already  buggered, but a good way to loosen one is fire the gun.

Someone on the board, Yulzari?  came up with a 1/4" drive 12 point socket the fits the nipple and 1/4" allen wrench. Spins nipple right out.

Another way is with  a heavy solder iron. Touch the soldering iron to the end of the nipple.  This will cause the nipple to expand quicker than the  bolster  and break the rust bond.  Works stick screws  also,   Touch the screw head or thread ind.  Torch won't work, you need the localized heat transfer from the soldering iron.

If you have to just cut away the niple down to the bolster.  Drill the center our with the proper size tap drill and retap the hole.  Us a taper tap and the tap will pick up the old threads and will peel out the old threads from the nipple.

.You can get the correct taps from Track of the  Wolf or  Brownells.  TotW also has over size nipples and taps. 
Douglas

"And don't forget.  That isn't your Martini you have.  It  belonged to others before you and will belong to others after you are gone.  Look after it, and pass it on with pride. It deserves it."  Malcolm Cobb,  The Martini Henry Note-book
*********
To find things Martini go to: WWW.MartiniHenry.com
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yulzari
Veteran of the Regiment
yulzari
Veteran of the Regiment
Joined: July 13th, 2012, 11:48 pm

May 10th, 2018, 10:15 pm #104

Yes that was me Douglas but I still attack them with ATF/acetone and a heavy soldering iron, several times,  just beforehand. Next on the list is the new Baker but the garden and preparing a new small field for a mixed orchard are taking priority at the moment. Malleo leniter should be a motto.

John
My religion consists in a firelock, open touch hole, good flint, well rammed charge, and seventy rounds of powder and ball. - Private Jack Careless.
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Pukka Bundook
Veteran of the Regiment
Pukka Bundook
Veteran of the Regiment
Joined: March 3rd, 2004, 3:19 pm

May 11th, 2018, 2:17 am #105

Also belt the sides of the nipple on the flats with a punch and hammer, then on what's left of the top of the nipple , good hard raps with the hammer. It all helps crack the rust.
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Johnny Yuma
Veteran of the Regiment
Johnny Yuma
Veteran of the Regiment
Joined: November 16th, 2009, 1:07 am

May 11th, 2018, 7:51 pm #106

Many nipples are incredibly hard. My sequence is to first heat the nipple alternating with the ATF and acetone. I may also pour some into the barrel to work for a day or two from the other side. Stand the barrel upright. Its important that the barrel be detached from the stock. This is mainly to protect the stock once you get to the point of screaming, hitting it with a balpeen hammer and swinging the barrel wildly against the concrete floor when the nipple still wont budge, and has effectively stripped itself round while breaking your last two nipple wrenches that sort of fit, and the small hex wrench that was your grandfathers that fit perfectly. After failure with the above and several hours spent sulking. One must come to terms with the fact that you and this nipple are mortal enemies, each bent on the destruction of the other. You are linked by lines of the deepest hatred. I then get out my drill and a well prepared sequence of the best drill bits purchased at considerable cost composed of the most modern titanium coated steel. Whichever one you choose to start out will get just far enough into the nipple hole to stick fast then snap off exactly even with the top of the nipple. This effectively seals the hole and virtually assures you that no other drill known to man will ever be able to drill through the shank of drill that is now forever stuck in the hated nipple. Listen very carefully....The nipple is laughing at you. Almost anything that you choose to do at this point will be a bad idea. This situation is best handled by renewed sulking, alcohol and avoidance of the barrel and cursed nipple for at least the next several days. An unintended benefit of this time period is that you will be less tempted to buy another gun than at any other point in time. You may actually emerge blinking from your basement and cut the lawn. Once I even started a conversation with my wife about our children. (I learned we had two.). Eventually you will be drawn back into your shop by an admixture of manly courage, hatred of the laughing nipple and a small bright sliver of foolish hope that somehow you can still get the nipple out without damaging the barrel. Did I mention that the barrel is a very nice one with almost 100% blue and almost perfect shiny grooves. It is of course ireplacable.
Eventually you do get it out after many hours of drilling from the side. drilling down next to the broken drill, breaking more drills and scratching the barrel just enough to be clearly noticeable from 100 feet away. Of course you wind up having to re-tap the hole. Of course the tap breaks, just as now several drills broke. Of course you then have to drill the tap out and re-re-tap the hole. The re-re- tapped hole is now too large for any of the 35 spare nipples that you have on hand so you have to order one specially from the gunsmith of last resort who believes you to be an utter and absolute idiot. 
"The Ideal situation, is that a man acquire a British flintlock musket or pistol every day. Any more and he will be perceived as greedy. Any less and his dedication will be suspect."
Johnny Yuma
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dennis g
Colour Sergeant
dennis g
Colour Sergeant
Joined: May 27th, 2012, 10:48 pm

May 11th, 2018, 9:06 pm #107

Hahahahahahahaha! You gotta get out of that Twinkie Factory You're practically certifiable. (:
 " May I be frank.....I'll be honest if you'd rather"?     B. Hill
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Adrian
Veteran of the Regiment
Adrian
Veteran of the Regiment
Joined: March 26th, 2003, 11:12 am

May 11th, 2018, 9:51 pm #108

Priceless!
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yulzari
Veteran of the Regiment
yulzari
Veteran of the Regiment
Joined: July 13th, 2012, 11:48 pm

May 11th, 2018, 10:03 pm #109

It all sounds perfectly rational to me.........
My religion consists in a firelock, open touch hole, good flint, well rammed charge, and seventy rounds of powder and ball. - Private Jack Careless.
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Ephraim Cooper
Corporal
Joined: August 12th, 2017, 9:47 am

May 12th, 2018, 7:36 am #110

Johnny, sadly you have hit the nail right on the head.  By your analysis I am at level three on the scale with one and level two on the better example.  I do not intend to go further down if technology, brute force and a large serving of luck can avoid it.  I was wondering about titanium coated drills, one of the benefits of this adventure is the fact that I am learning more about the different types of drill bit than I really need or want.  I will give them another dose of heat and penetrating oil to see if that will help.

Fingers crossed that the tungsten bit does the job, having to resort to the further steps in your schema are not that enticing.

Wish me luck!
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Johnny Yuma
Veteran of the Regiment
Johnny Yuma
Veteran of the Regiment
Joined: November 16th, 2009, 1:07 am

May 12th, 2018, 3:18 pm #111

I do wish you luck. Sadly, most of the above diatribe is absolutely true (excepting the children part. I' ve always been fairly sure about having two.) For some reason, I am really good with locks and awful with nipples. The above description has actually happened several times. The barrel smashing on concrete only once. I wanted people who dont necessarily do this stuff all the time, to realize just how much can go wrong even with some knowledge and experience. The message is to not give up, persevere and be OK with some abject humiliation. 
Best, Johnny
"The Ideal situation, is that a man acquire a British flintlock musket or pistol every day. Any more and he will be perceived as greedy. Any less and his dedication will be suspect."
Johnny Yuma
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yulzari
Veteran of the Regiment
yulzari
Veteran of the Regiment
Joined: July 13th, 2012, 11:48 pm

May 12th, 2018, 10:21 pm #112

Part of the trick for success is walking away and doing something else when the urge to use just that bit of extra force is overwhelming you. That is the time to decide to put it off until tomorrow. In life I find out that so many problems either have an obvious solution when looked at afresh or solve themselves if you ignore them long enough.

Maybe there is room for a book on 'Zen and the Art of Removing Nipples', although it might be misfiled on book shop shelves. 

Be 'as one with the thread' and accept that nipple rust is the second hardest substance known to Man, after dried on Weetabix.
My religion consists in a firelock, open touch hole, good flint, well rammed charge, and seventy rounds of powder and ball. - Private Jack Careless.
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Johnny Yuma
Veteran of the Regiment
Johnny Yuma
Veteran of the Regiment
Joined: November 16th, 2009, 1:07 am

May 14th, 2018, 11:12 am #113

Wise words John. Would make an excellent framed poster over my workbench. Im also wondering if dipping the drill in a Weetabix solution prior to use might sidestep the entire problem.(:
Best, Johnny
"The Ideal situation, is that a man acquire a British flintlock musket or pistol every day. Any more and he will be perceived as greedy. Any less and his dedication will be suspect."
Johnny Yuma
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The Double D
Veteran of the Regiment
The Double D
Veteran of the Regiment
Joined: March 11th, 2003, 5:45 am

May 14th, 2018, 12:11 pm #114

Oh I see your problem, Johnny.  "I then get out my drill" , the  correct phrase is, "take the gun over to my drill press".   You do have a drill press don't you.  Well you are in luck, I just happen to have such a tool surplus to my needs.



Comes with clamping kit and 2 drill press vises; one fixed jaw, one x-y moveable. 5ft tall and 170 pounds.  It should  fit in the back of your Panamera with rear seats folded down.  The seat do fold down don't they.   Low mileage, only used on three small projects traveling carriage for bowling  ball mortar, tennis ball trebuchet and carriage rebuild for Lapan cannon.. For this special introductory offer to a friend, can be delivered to the motel parking lot in Easton this coming October, no charge.  Cash sale, unmarked bills only wrapped in the morning newspaper.

Serious fellas, for  this sort of work you will find a drill press indispensable.  The one pictured is a floor model, but a bench top model is good investment.  Back in the 80's when I had my own gunsmith shop, all I ever had was a bench model. In the custom shops I worked in they had floor models, but the work horse was always the  bench model.  It is well worth the investment.  One of those  X-Y adjustable  vises are very handy.also.  Having your work rigidly  secured will make the project so much easier. This tool and a solid mounted bench vise and will save on frustration, tools and accidents.  
Douglas

"And don't forget.  That isn't your Martini you have.  It  belonged to others before you and will belong to others after you are gone.  Look after it, and pass it on with pride. It deserves it."  Malcolm Cobb,  The Martini Henry Note-book
*********
To find things Martini go to: WWW.MartiniHenry.com
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Johnny Yuma
Veteran of the Regiment
Johnny Yuma
Veteran of the Regiment
Joined: November 16th, 2009, 1:07 am

May 14th, 2018, 3:36 pm #115

Carbon copy of mine, Douglas including the clamps.
Thanks for the very generous offer though.
Far too large to fit under a trenchcoat.
"The Ideal situation, is that a man acquire a British flintlock musket or pistol every day. Any more and he will be perceived as greedy. Any less and his dedication will be suspect."
Johnny Yuma
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yulzari
Veteran of the Regiment
yulzari
Veteran of the Regiment
Joined: July 13th, 2012, 11:48 pm

May 14th, 2018, 5:25 pm #116

I am always surprised how much one can do with a hand drill and it gives instant feedback and it's slow speed lets you stop before you do bad things. 
My religion consists in a firelock, open touch hole, good flint, well rammed charge, and seventy rounds of powder and ball. - Private Jack Careless.
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old tanker
Lance Corporal
old tanker
Lance Corporal
Joined: September 20th, 2017, 2:06 pm

May 14th, 2018, 7:33 pm #117

As an aircraft mechanic, I have had opportunity to use the screw knocker aka woodpecker.

aircraft version  automotive type

The advantage to the aircraft type is it accepts 3/8 square drive sockets.  Now attach a 3/8 drive 1/4 inch square head impact socket should beat that nipple into submission.

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Ephraim Cooper
Corporal
Joined: August 12th, 2017, 9:47 am

May 14th, 2018, 8:01 pm #118

I am pleased to report that the tungsten carbide bit has arrived.  Stubby little thing and weighs a lot more than a normal one.  I tried it out on the buggered nipple and with a bit of pressure and a lot of cutting oil I managed to drill the hole to size for the extractor.  Currently the gun is sitting bathed in releasing fluid and I'll take the propane torch to it when I have a minute.  I also ordered a tungsten carbide grinding bit just in case the extractor doesn't work, with a bigger hole I now have some room to get in and grind away the remains of the nipple.  It won't be easy but a lot better than before.
 
I'm planning on getting a bench drill as trying to work accurately with my hand drill is proving difficult, as ever chronic lack of funds is a problem but lack of space is also causing a few difficulties.  Unlike many in the US a lot of houses here in the UK do not have a basement.  Many of us have to use a garden shed.

If I remember I'll take a picture or two when I next work on the guns.
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Pukka Bundook
Veteran of the Regiment
Pukka Bundook
Veteran of the Regiment
Joined: March 3rd, 2004, 3:19 pm

May 15th, 2018, 3:01 am #119

For drilling nipples for an extractor, I always use a hand drill.
Less chance of it getting out of line and breaking I reckon.
A good rap or two and some heat and they always seem to submit.
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Ephraim Cooper
Corporal
Joined: August 12th, 2017, 9:47 am

May 18th, 2018, 7:39 pm #120

It was lucky that I got that tungsten carbide cutting bit as the the nipple I'm working on is resisting to the last.  The metal that it is made of is so hard that it has completely rounded off the extractor that I tried to get the nipple out with.  It could be that the extractor is a poor one but even so I have no idea what the original owners did to make the blasted thing so tough.

Back to the cutting tool.  I'm now laboriously grinding away the remains of the nipple, watching like a hawk for the first signs of the thread.  So far it is going well and small pieces are coming away.  The trouble is that instead of acting like foil and just peeling off the metal is breaking into small pieces and is having to be picked out of the thread with the end of one of my scribers, so it looks like it is going to be a long job, but I will get there.  So far I have avoided any major damage to the bolster and barrel, just a few light  scratches and nicks.  Still you can't make an omlette without breaking eggs.  As I said earlier being a model maker does have its advantages but I can't remember a job being so awkward.

When I have anything to show I will post some pictures but at the moment there's nothing to see but an ugly looking hole where there should be a neat thread in the bolster.
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