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Peabody Martini Type A (Aka MH MK I with safety period copy!) + bayonet

jpb
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jpb
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12:31 AM - Jul 28, 2013 #1

Aloha - finally got around to taking some photos of my Peabody Martini.
All original, unmolested - looks identical to the early MH MKI - with safety!
To me it looks like its never been apart!
So going to leave it that way.


The wood is not as nice as the British MH's - maybe as its not been handled much??? (all original wood too). Different type of wood?


Interesting Bayonet set up - can not find one piece of evidence to indicate this is the right bayonet type - Peabody design yes (they made several versions for different rifles, no lug for sword bayonet; that was later with the Type A).
But bayonet hanging in front of the clearing rod??? Can any one direct me to any evidence to what type of bayonet the Type A actually had, is this the right one ???


[Seem to be bit like the .303 MH - without clearing rod].


Rifle: Turkish Peabody Martini M1874 Type A

Serial No*: 200082 (*Arabic-Turkish translation from receiver)

Year of Manufacture: 1875-1876; Second Contract to Turkish Govt.(?)1  



[something is in conflict here, as second contract was Type B - without safety, interesting......]

 

Manufactured:



“PEABODY MARTINI PATENTD


MAN’F’D BY


PROVIDENCE TOOL CO.


PROV. R.I. U.S.A.”


 
(Left hand side – receiver)


 

Caliber: 11.3x59R (.45 Turkish) – obsolete black powder metallic cartridge

Military service: Russo-Turkish War (1876–78)

Specifics of Peabody Martini M1874 Type A: (i) Fitted with external sliding trigger safety (receiver, right hand side) [specific and unique indicator from the later more common Type B, 1876-1879; in which safety is absent]; (ii) Brass breech block pivot pin secured with retaining screws (left hand side), (iii) no bayonet lug – upper barrel band, present in Type B.

Rifle is identical/ copy to the BRITISH made 577/450 Martini Henry MK I (1871-1874)





 

SOURCES:



 http://www.militaryrifles.com/Turkey/TPeabMar.htm

1First contract Peabody-Martini rifles range from serial no. 1 -- 200,000 (1874-1875); second contract rifles range from 200,001 -- 500,000 (1875-1876); and third contract rifles range from 500,001 to 600,000 (1877-1879).



In 1882, Providence Tool. Co put up for sale its entire inventory of gun making machinery, ceasing production some 12 month earlier, then declaring bankruptcy in 1883.







 

ADDITIONAL INFORMATION:  

 The Turkish Connection - The Saga of the Peabody-Martini Rifle, by William O. Achtermeier, (Originally published in Man At Arms Magazine, Volume 1, Number 2, pp. 12-21, 55­57, March/April 1979).

Web version of above: http://www.militaryrifles.com/Turkey/Pe ... yStory.htm





 

Information regarding: Providence Tool. Co.: 

http://www.rihs.org/mssinv/Mss089.htm



http://www.artinruins.com/arch/?id=stillinuse&pr=ritool

 Enjoy the photos...

  

 


  


 


 
Last edited by jpb on 12:37 AM - Jul 28, 2013, edited 3 times in total.
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orange
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orange
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3:27 AM - Aug 01, 2013 #2

Looks like the correct Turkish bayonet.
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jpb
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6:33 AM - Aug 01, 2013 #3

Aloha Orange - Thnaks

Even though the cleaning rod is now unaccessible? Engineering oversight?

I presume that is why the British version had the bayonet positioned to the side?

Looks right - but still not 100%, it feels nice and well balanced, looked for photographic evidence - found none.
Awaiting a book order on the "Providence Tool Co. Military Arms" (Edward A. Hull) - see where that get me.

Anyone has photo's of a Peabody Martini (socket/type A model) with Bayonet?

Aloha

JP
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gmkmd
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1:43 PM - Aug 01, 2013 #4

Yes, this is the standard bayonet for the "model A" military Peabody-Martini rifles made by the Providence Tool Company. I have never been able to find any explanation as to why they chose to position the bayonet at 6:00, while most other rifles of the time had the bayonet positioned to the right side of the muzzle. In fact, if you look at ALL the muskets and rifles EVER made by any company or country, which take a socket bayonet, about 99.9% of them have the bayonet positioned to the right of the barrel! A scant few early percussion-era musket models have the bayonet on the left side of the barrel. The only rifles that come to mind that position the bayonet at 6:00 are the PTCo. Peabody-Martini, and the Dutch Beaumont-Vitali. In fact, the Beaumont-Vitali bayonet is very similar, and often gets confused with a Peabody-Martini bayonet. I'm not quite sure if they are an interchangeable fit, as I have never tried, but they sure are close.
Perhaps it helps protect the cleaning rod from getting bent, or snagged, during bayonet thrusts?

There are only two standard bayonets which were supplied with these rifles; the earlier socket bayonet and the later sword bayonet. They did not, as you state, "make several different versions for different rifles". It is believed that they were sub-contracted (probably to Ames), as they have no manufacturers markings. Both bayonets are unique to these rifles, though that's not to say that other bayonets won't fit.

It's actually not correct to call this bayonet a "Turkish contract bayonet" (unless it is marked with Turkish inspection/acceptance markings), since the same bayonet was supplied with all P-M model-A rifles regardless of who purchased them. While the Turkish contract was the only large military contract for these rifles, they did sell them privately and to other small contracts, and supplied the same bayonets with them. Likewise with the sword bayonets supplied with the P-M model-B rifles; if you bought any P-M model-B rifles, this was the bayonet you got with it, whether you were the Turkish gov't or anyone else.
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GrantR Canada
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4:15 PM - Aug 01, 2013 #5

Nice rifle, Jean-Paul!  (How close are you getting to your apparent goal of collecting at least one example of every Martini-action firearm ever produced?    )

The issue of positioning of the socket bayonet is interesting.  Of course, access to the ramrod was very important in muzzle-loading days and, as noted by gmknd, that positioning seems to have been slavishly continued by most after breechloaders came on the scene, notwithstanding that the rod became nothing more than a clearing/cleaning device, and thus only occasionally accessed .... and rarely in situations in which it was deemed necessary to have the bayonet affixed.  Perhaps Providence Tool were being intentionally innovative?  The reasons suggested by gmknd are good possibilities, and it occurs to me that balance might be another reason, or even just moving the bayonet down out of sight where it might be less likely to affect the overall "sighting picture" ......
Grant Rombough
Medicine Hat, Alberta
Canada
("Rattlesnake Jack Robson", Scout, Rocky Mountain Rangers, 1885)
WEBSITE: "RATTLESNAKE JACK'S" 
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jpb
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4:56 PM - Aug 01, 2013 #6

Aloha Grant  and gmkmd,


(Grant - first there's something in the mail heading your way! - I have been working on buttons, that's another story people - will post that later)


I have to agree - balance - feeling the different between a MH MK I socket Bayonetted rifle, and the Peabody Martini - there is a difference and more natural 'extended' feel to it.


Also naturally the design lines look cleaner.


I'd also presume, thinking about this a little more, this accounts for the differences in the protruding length of Peabody Martini clearing rod, as using a MH version (longer) it would be impossible to place the socket Bayonet on the barrel - yes I have tested this: failed.


Meanwhile I did finally manage last night to find a photo - not high pixel detailed, but shows it - what  I think the PM bayonet in the  6 o'clock position.


And Yes Grant collection has grown, with your help (thumbs up). Trying to get a good representation of the various models, manufacturers of "MH's", modified variants etc (within reason) - only keeping to military rifles. Its a small collection, but well represented with a members of the Commonwealth (NZ, Aust., Indian - naturally UK) - my next target is a DC marked MH, so keep you eyes peeled.


Enjoy the photo.....evidence at last? They look one happy bunch of soldiers


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gmkmd
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5:40 PM - Aug 01, 2013 #7

Yes, the P-M cleaning rod, while it looks quite like a Martini-Henry rod, is shorter in order to accommodate the position of the bayonet. There are two variants; the Model A rifles were made with a rod with a rounded head, like on the M-H Mk I, while the later Model B rifles had one with a cupped head, like on the rod for the M-H Mk II or Mk III.

Your rifle appears to have the later rod, but you should be delighted that it has a correct P-M rod at all. I'd say that at least 75% of the Peabody-Martini's that I've seen over the years did not have their original rod. Many have had British M-H rods in them, and others have had all sorts of replacements.
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CoffeyCup
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6:28 PM - Aug 01, 2013 #8

Not to get off topic too much, but I work about 10 minutes away from the old Providence Tool Co building.
Building is still standing but converted to professional office space. Doctor's offices and the like.

I suppose any remnants of it's former use are long gone. But one can fantasize about a hidden stash of Peabodys in the basement...
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Viclav
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6:39 PM - Aug 01, 2013 #9

More happy Turks with Peabody-Martinis. Bayonets not fixed, and likely type B rifles judging by the sword bayonet scabbards visible. One can see the shorter nature of the cleaning rods.



As an aside, I wonder if the usual position of the bayonet to the barrel was a throw-back to muzzle-loading practice. Didn't most drill call for the weapon to be placed with butt between the feet,
triggerguard toward the soldier, and tilted outward for loading? A bayonet beneath the barrel would have been in the way, but not so with a cartridge weapon. Apologies if I'm blathering about the
blindingly obvious.


Victor


"Always carry a firearm east of Aldgate, Watson."
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gmkmd
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6:46 PM - Aug 01, 2013 #10

In all the drills I am familiar with, the musket was not loaded with the bayonet fixed.
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Viclav
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6:46 PM - Aug 01, 2013 #11

CoffeyCup, you're a Rhode Islander too?! We're going to have to get you to the next New England BMF shoot!
I drive by West River Street every morning on my way to work. Never been able to dig through that building for remains,
but I did liberate a model A from the turn-in bucket of the Providence Police HQ.


Victor


"Always carry a firearm east of Aldgate, Watson."
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GrantR Canada
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7:22 PM - Aug 01, 2013 #12

A painting (portion of a diorama at Plevna, I believe) depicting the storming of Grivitsa Redoubt by the Russians during the Siege of Plevna, Russo-Turkish War of 1877-78 .....





Details - 







Grant Rombough
Medicine Hat, Alberta
Canada
("Rattlesnake Jack Robson", Scout, Rocky Mountain Rangers, 1885)
WEBSITE: "RATTLESNAKE JACK'S" 
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CoffeyCup
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7:23 PM - Aug 01, 2013 #13

Work in RI, live just over the border in MA. Yes, I'd love to attend the BMF shoot!
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The Double D
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3:57 AM - Aug 02, 2013 #14

I wonder what the chances are of me walking into a gunstore in Istanbul and finding one of these on the shelf?
Douglas

"And don't forget.  That isn't your Martini you have.  It  belonged to others before you and will belong to others after you are gone.  Look after it, and pass it on with pride. It deserves it."  Malcolm Cobb,  The Martini Henry Note-book
*********
To find things Martini go to: WWW.MartiniHenry.com
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jpb
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4:20 AM - Aug 02, 2013 #15

Aloha DD, very high - issue is getting them out.

I have an old friend/ex-work colleague who now lives in Turkey, unfortunately she does not know a Martini Peabody from an apple peeler.

Armed with a photograph she walks into a modern rifle shop, asks for an antique rifle (at my bugging) and was shown a modified Type B (changed barrel + extra wood and reenforced at the block pin?).

I have not been able to locate the photos presently.

But it seems that the Type B's are around - in various states, as too these later converts (some in Russian Caliber?).

I bet your odds are better it you make contact with a local BP collector? Or someone who knows the 'system'.

The issue is getting it out as its more then 100 yrs old.......not that is a rifle!

Aloha

JP
Last edited by jpb on 4:26 AM - Aug 02, 2013, edited 2 times in total.
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jpb
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jpb
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4:22 AM - Aug 02, 2013 #16

Thanks Grant - that's the additional evidence one has been looking for!Bayonets below the muzzle.
Aloha
JP
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orange
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11:32 PM - Aug 02, 2013 #17

The conversions with hand guard were in 7.65 Mauser cal same as Turkish M1890, 93 and 03. They took the same sword or socket bayonet as the 45 rifles.
BTW British M-H bayonets fit the Turk rifles and vice versa.
Last edited by orange on 11:35 PM - Aug 02, 2013, edited 1 time in total.
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Joined: 9:29 AM - Jan 10, 2018

10:44 AM - Mar 17, 2018 #18

jpb wrote:      Rifle: Turkish Peabody Martini M1874 Type A

 Serial No*: 200082 (*Arabic-Turkish translation from receiver)

 Year of Manufacture: 1875-1876; Second Contract to Turkish Govt.(?)1  

[something is in conflict here, as second contract was Type B - without safety, interesting......]


 
 
According to Heino Hintermeir, "Turkische Peabody-Gewehre", Deutsche Waffen Journal 4 (2001), the Type B began to be made after  369.200 had been completed to Type A specifications with the safety, so no problem with the seriial number on this

I would like to use the photograph above in an academic article I am writing - better still if I could have a full length one of rifle and bayonet. Is that possible?

I do have one of these bayonets, found and bought in Turkey, and it has a small 'W' or 'M' mark on he socket, similar to the mark found on some of the yataghan bayonets provided with the Type B Peabody-Martini's.
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Joined: 9:29 AM - Jan 10, 2018

2:45 PM - Mar 17, 2018 #19

Viclav wrote: More happy Turks with Peabody-Martinis. Bayonets not fixed, and likely type B rifles judging by the sword bayonet scabbards visible. One can see the shorter nature of the cleaning rods.



"Always carry a firearm east of Aldgate, Watson."
This photograph has me puzzled... Yes, yataghan bayonets, as appropriate for Type B rifles... But, what is the stacking hook (that's what it looks like!) doing on a P-M rifle? Here is the photograph again - 
imageproxy.jpg
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Joined: 9:29 AM - Jan 10, 2018

2:47 PM - Mar 17, 2018 #20

gmkmd wrote: In all the drills I am familiar with, the musket was not loaded with the bayonet fixed.
Hence the introduction of the yataghan bayonet! Loading possible while bayonet attached...
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