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Jalapeno Jake
Sergeant Major
Jalapeno Jake
Sergeant Major
Joined: December 5th, 2003, 6:11 am

March 4th, 2006, 5:00 am #41

Wiley,
Thanks a bunch. $5 buys a pound of stump remover granules al Lowe's. "Danger contains potassium nitrate"
Jake
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Brian the Brit
Lance Sergeant
Brian the Brit
Lance Sergeant
Joined: January 14th, 2003, 4:01 am

March 5th, 2006, 9:38 pm #42

I tried out my experimental rounds with the combustible liners yesterday and they worked fine leaving only traces of very fine ash in the fired cases. There were no recognisable paper residues. The brass was CBC with 85 grains of BP, (no filler), wad column and paper patched bullet. Accuracy was reasonable but nothing to get excited about.

I think that if I could find paper with the right degree of strength and absorbancy this method would provide a practical alternative to the various filler options when using reformed CBC cases.

The ordinary printer paper that I used doesn't seem to absorb much of the saltpetre solution and visible crystals form on the surface as it dries. I bought some special artists' watercolour paper and tried that but it also seems reluctant to absorb sufficient liquid.

What I need is something with the absorbancy of, say, blotting paper but with sufficient strength when dried to form into springy tubes.

Can anyone suggest a paper that might meet these requirements?

At the range I also fired 5 Kynoch cases each containing 90 grains of BP and a small tuft of cotton wool filler under my normal wad column and paper patched bullet. This proved to be my most accurate load to date putting four rounds into a 1.5" circle at 50 metres with two of the bullets passing through the same slightly enlarged hole. One round was a slight flyer (due no doubt to my incompetence.) The centre of the group was 12.5" above POA with a normal (full) sight picture.

This is the load I'll be trying out at 200, 300 and 400 metres as soon as I get the opportunity.

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martinibelgian
Veteran of the Regiment
martinibelgian
Veteran of the Regiment
Joined: March 17th, 2002, 5:43 am

March 5th, 2006, 9:49 pm #43

Brian,

Looks as if you're getting there - 1.5" is nothing to sneeze at. For 50 and 100m'yds work, you 'll have to get used to 'taking a fine bead', and with some practice, it can be quite accurate - not to mention repeatable. At the start, I was also soundly cursing the crude sights, but it just takes some getting used to them, that's all. But you'll see that a full sight pic will be just about right for 200yds.
Bottom line is - while they are picky about loads and bullets, these old rifles can certainly be made to shoot - and shoot well... to our greater delight, of course!
Added bonus is of course you look really good at the range, everyone wants to have a go at the old warhorse - until they see the rounds, that is!
Now you still have about 4 months left to get ready for the Imperial (hint, hint...), where some of us will do our best to put some martini's at the top end of the 'Vintage Military rifle - Medium calibre" score sheets...
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Pukka Bundook
Veteran of the Regiment
Pukka Bundook
Veteran of the Regiment
Joined: March 3rd, 2004, 3:19 pm

March 6th, 2006, 4:49 am #44

I too fired a couple of targets, one with plain paper, and one with paper soaked in gunpowder solution.
No difference in accuracy, far as i could tell, and they didn't recoil like those I tried with card liners.
No paper left in 'nitrated' cases, and just the odd scrap in plain paper cases.
Still, I didn't get as tight a group as on 1st outing, more like 2 1/2" @ 50 yds, so load likely needs refining, unless it was the V. bright sunshine! ( see post on this topic..........Seems like wishful thinking, but dunno how to account for 'luck' and sods law... or me wot can't shoot straight!!)
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Brian the Brit
Lance Sergeant
Brian the Brit
Lance Sergeant
Joined: January 14th, 2003, 4:01 am

March 25th, 2006, 4:19 pm #45

To recap: My original quest was to find a method of reducing the volume of the CBC .577/450 case from approximately 115 grains of BP to 85 or 90 grains without using filler.

I found that a paper coil inserted into the case so that it sprung out to touch the case sides did the trick but that untreated paper was only partially consumed on firing leaving bits of paper in the cases and occasionally in the barrel.

Nitrating the office printer/photocopier paper I was using with a super-saturated solution of saltpetre improved matters but the paper did not really absorb enough of the potassium nitrate solution producing only a surface layer of crystals. Ash and occasional paper fragments were left in the cases. What was needed was a paper that would absorb a lot of the liquid and then retain its strength on being dried.

Last week I bought a sheet of blotting paper (the sort that used to be inserted into executives' desk blotter pads) and did some further experiments.

The blotting paper (unsurprisingly) readily absorbed liquid and needed careful handling so that it did not tear while being hung up to dry. When air dried I ran a cool, dry iron over the paper to get rid of any creases before cutting some 1.4" strips ready for loading.

By trial and error I found that 1.4" x 2.5" strips gave a load volume of 90 grains with my medium powder requiring slight hand compression of the charge with a piece of dowel. I loaded 5 test rounds with nitrated blotting paper and 5 with nitrated printer paper.

Blotting paper is not as 'springy' as printer paper after the soaking and drying process and the inserts may need easing out to the sides of the case with a pencil or similar implement.

At the range this morning I found that both samples performed well but whereas the printer paper left ash and some light paper residues in the cases, the blotting paper was totally consumed leaving the cases completely free of ash and paper residues.

I have to conclude that if you are in any way uneasy about using fillers in your CBC loads, then nitrated blotting paper case liners are a simple and practical alternative.

Brian

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singleshotman
Colour Sergeant
singleshotman
Colour Sergeant
Joined: March 21st, 2003, 1:34 am

March 27th, 2006, 4:42 pm #46

This idea has nothing to do with paper-what about metal BRass inserts put in Before case forming? I've got a ML7 lathe from England, so can make my own inserts-my dad bought it in 1959 and made scores of cases on it in the old days when you coun't get brass. My dad used to look at a lot old black powder military rifles, look at the bore and ask, is it centerfire?
The only time i can recall him taking a risk on a rifle was the time he bought a Romanum Peabody(before martini)we coun't disassemble it till we got home and hoped it wasn't rimfire-it was not so he made cases for it.Back to tapic-you could use locktite on the inserts-it setts up very well on brass and i don't think it would move during firing.You could reduce the volume as much as you want, i may try this, i don't want to pay $100 for twenty cases.
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JTCoyote
Sergeant
JTCoyote
Sergeant
Joined: December 22nd, 2005, 7:41 am

March 27th, 2006, 7:30 pm #47

Singleshotman,

About two years ago, Ian and I ran a thread here on this subject based upon the tinkering both of us were doing with metal inserts in MAGTECH BRASS for both the 577 Snider and the 577/450 Martini Henry.

I was using half-inch rigid copper tube, the kind used for water lines. I would cut it to length, soft anneal it, insert it into the case with no adhesive of any kind, and then form the case.

This worked real well for the Martini Henry. It reduced the case capacity almost perfectly to 85 grains, and never did I have a Martini case so fited loosen up upon firing. This is due to the fact that the Martini has such a huge shoulder. Also the insert was formed with the brass being swaged together during the forming process.

This also worked to reduce case capacity in rifles with a modern 590/Super-Snider chamber since it has a tight fitting modern chamber. It did not work well with the original Snider however. The chamber in the originals is large enough and the cases blow out far enough for the insert to work its way out of the case ...

So, this method works well for the Martini, and is okay for the modern 590 Snider chambering, but for the ORIGINAL Snider rifles... getting that copper insert stuck halfway down the bore is not my idea of a good time. -- Just The Coyot
-- Just The Coyoté
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Loong mak
O/R
Joined: July 30th, 2014, 1:38 am

July 30th, 2014, 1:49 am #48

Has any one thought about making paper with the above nitrate mix instead of trying to soak paper with the mix. I like the copper pipe solution to form cases
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