Original Cadet powder charge

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Original Cadet powder charge

Glyn9
Lance Corporal
Joined: 08 Oct 2003, 04:01

25 Jan 2016, 20:01 #1

I just read a post where someone stated that the Cadet had never been intended for black powder. I had always assumed that the chamber marking of .310-12-120 referred to a loading containing 12 gr of black powder behind a 120 gr bullet. What kind of smokeless powder would take 12 grains to give a velocity of 1200fps? Cordite? I didn't think that the case had enough volume to take 12 grains of any modern smokeless powder.

(And why does the number 12 figure in the powder charge, bullet weight and muzzle velocity!)
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tjshooter
Sergeant Major
Joined: 05 Apr 2003, 05:11

25 Jan 2016, 20:19 #2

Hi
The 12 figure would have reffered to charge weight I can not  say what but it was not Black Powder and indeed never loaded with that. Later production in UK was loaded with 6grs of Cadet Neonite. Not something available now. Trust this goes some way to answering your question.


TJ
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The Double D
Veteran of the Regiment
Joined: 11 Mar 2003, 05:45

26 Jan 2016, 01:55 #3

The .310 is a smokeless powder cartridge. That type of Marking is used with smokeless load and not black powder.

I don't my reference material but I beleive the 12 refers to 12 grains of Rifleite powder. If some one knows better please feel free to correct me.
Douglas

"And don't forget.  That isn't your Martini you have.  It  belonged to others before you and will belong to others after you are gone.  Look after it, and pass it on with pride. It deserves it."  Malcolm Cobb,  The Martini Henry Note-book
*********
To find things Martini go to: WWW.MartiniHenry.com
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PommyB
Veteran of the Regiment
Joined: 03 Sep 2009, 21:41

26 Jan 2016, 02:39 #4

Douglas, I believe the .310 Cadet was loaded with 12gns of Neonite which was a chopped version of Cordite.
"For a man, be he ever so much resolved to do his duty as a parent, can't be flogging his children all day....."

The Memoirs of Barry Lyndon, Esq. (William Thackeray).
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The Double D
Veteran of the Regiment
Joined: 11 Mar 2003, 05:45

26 Jan 2016, 03:38 #5

Thanks Martyn, like I said I don't have my reference material with me.


Were those powders chopped cordite or some other from of nitro-cellulose powders
Douglas

"And don't forget.  That isn't your Martini you have.  It  belonged to others before you and will belong to others after you are gone.  Look after it, and pass it on with pride. It deserves it."  Malcolm Cobb,  The Martini Henry Note-book
*********
To find things Martini go to: WWW.MartiniHenry.com
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PommyB
Veteran of the Regiment
Joined: 03 Sep 2009, 21:41

26 Jan 2016, 05:21 #6

As I understand it, they (at least Neonite) were chopped cordite. I've seen references to it as a Nobel-manufactured powder.
"For a man, be he ever so much resolved to do his duty as a parent, can't be flogging his children all day....."

The Memoirs of Barry Lyndon, Esq. (William Thackeray).
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cblfrance
Veteran of the Regiment
Joined: 31 Mar 2013, 18:11

26 Jan 2016, 08:08 #7

From the 'someone' mentioned by Glyn9.

Neonite is/was a single base nitrocellulose propellant, not related to Cordite which was a doublebase nitroglycerine and nitrocellulose based propellant. It was manufactured and patented by the Nobel company for use in small arms. When used in military cartridges the suffix'Z' was added to the Mark number of the cartridge to indicate its prescence. It was later used up to the late 1960's in Augmenting charges in British 3 inch and 4.2 inch mortar bombs. Some older members might remember these charges in their 'see-through' cellulose tubes attached between the tail fins of these bombs.

Clive aka 'someone'.
Last edited by cblfrance on 26 Jan 2016, 08:37, edited 1 time in total.
When 'arf of your bullets fly wide in the ditch, don't call your Martini a cross-eyed bitch.She's human as you are, you treat her as sich.An 'she'll fight for the young British soldier.                                            Rudyard Kipling.     1865-1936.
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Glyn9
Lance Corporal
Joined: 08 Oct 2003, 04:01

26 Jan 2016, 10:58 #8

Sorry, Clive - no offence intended. I couldn't remember which post I'd seen that mentioned the non use of black powder in .310 when I wrote mine.

Just had a search for Neonite and it's listed here http://www.archive.org/stream/dictionar ... h_djvu.txt - says it was introduced in 1907, seven years after Greener introduced the .310 cartridge. It seems to be a pistol/shotgun class of powder and I still think that the .310 would have needed a lot less than 12 grains of it to achieve its ballistics.

Here is an entry in the IWM's catalogue http://www.iwm.org.uk/collections/item/object/30027682 listing a box of cordite-loaded .310 cartridges made in 1902.
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cblfrance
Veteran of the Regiment
Joined: 31 Mar 2013, 18:11

26 Jan 2016, 11:23 #9

No offence taken Glyn9.

I just thought it was somewhat bizarre given I use my pseudonym, Christian name, avatar and distinctive 'signature' on all my posts.

Clive.
When 'arf of your bullets fly wide in the ditch, don't call your Martini a cross-eyed bitch.She's human as you are, you treat her as sich.An 'she'll fight for the young British soldier.                                            Rudyard Kipling.     1865-1936.
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Glyn9
Lance Corporal
Joined: 08 Oct 2003, 04:01

26 Jan 2016, 11:34 #10

A thought has just struck me. Maybe I'm misinterpreting the chamber marking. Why would BSA not just mark the calibre on the barrel as .310 or .310 Greener? Why add the powder charge and bullet weight when they are not required to fully define the cartridge (the only other .310 cal cartridge being the Cattle Killer that was not intended for use in rifles).

I wonder if they added the 12-120 as a guide for reloaders who at the time only had access to black powder propellants?
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Fred.britishmilitariaforums
Veteran of the Regiment
Joined: 03 Jul 2008, 19:22

26 Jan 2016, 11:34 #11

I have always understood that the original load was 12 grains of chopped cordite.Fred
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Fred.britishmilitariaforums
Veteran of the Regiment
Joined: 03 Jul 2008, 19:22

26 Jan 2016, 11:45 #12

To complicate things further, I looked it up in Greener's "The Gun" and he gives the load for 310 as 5.5grn of cordite with an 125grn bullet giving a muzzle velocity of 1250 ft / sec.I guess he ought to know!  This ninth edition published in 1910.
Fred
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GJ
Colour Sergeant
Joined: 29 Apr 2005, 17:20

26 Jan 2016, 12:25 #13

The nearest load for the .310 Greener approaching 12grains that I have found is 9-10grains of IMR4227. The largest weight of powder I have used is 8grains of 2400. But I soon changed to 4.5grains Unique. More bang for your Buck or Quid in my case!

Gwyn
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tjshooter
Sergeant Major
Joined: 05 Apr 2003, 05:11

26 Jan 2016, 19:31 #14

And yes refer to my first post re loading with 6 grs Cadet  Neonite   from ICI catalogue as against other forms of Neonite.

TJ.
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orange
Veteran of the Regiment
Joined: 09 Nov 2004, 02:50

26 Jan 2016, 22:34 #15

Kynoch 1902 catalogue lists 5 1/2 gr cordite for 310 ctg.
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djbuk
Sergeant
Joined: 26 Jan 2003, 19:31

04 Feb 2016, 22:13 #16

when i first got my .310 cadet I did research into the original loading and recall that it was 12 grains of rifleite and later changed to neonite. Like GJ i use 4.5 or 4.7 grains of Unique depending wheather swaged or cast bullets. the 310 cadet does not appear in the 1902 eley catalogue. dave
when things get beyond a joke, light a cig and have a smoke,  if you find a cig won't do, boil the kettle have a brew.
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MichaelNH
Veteran of the Regiment
Joined: 16 Mar 2002, 02:59

15 Feb 2016, 04:13 #17

I think the 12 is a case capacity, at least it was in US cartridges, and was in no way a recommendation for charge of any other powder that was used. A .45-70-405 case holds 70 gr. of BP, but you wouldn't use 70 grains of a nitro powder. That doesn't change the case capacity.

Also, because "grains of black powder" is a weight that is used as a unit of volume, knowing the diameter and volume gives you the length of the brass.
Last edited by MichaelNH on 15 Feb 2016, 04:18, edited 1 time in total.
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Inachukua kijiji kumpiga mtoto.
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Glyn9
Lance Corporal
Joined: 08 Oct 2003, 04:01

10 Jul 2017, 13:40 #18

I think I've found the answer to this conundrum of the barrel marking referring to a higher powder weight than would have been used to get the 1200 fps advertised velocity.  I notice that the the .310 12-120 marking is next to the proof stamp and I think this is a proof house stamping rather than a BSA one and refers to the proof charge. 
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