Loading the 297/230 Morris

A new forum just for the miniature Martinis, Sniders, Morris Tubes, Greener/Bonehill Conversions, other smallbore versions of military rifles, and Rook Rifles
of all sorts.

Moderators: Johnny Yuma, GrantR Canada, Carignan Salieres, The Double D, Viclav

herbert
Veteran of the Regiment
Joined: 12 Oct 2009, 11:23

04 Jul 2011, 10:07 #121

Has any one come up with a good way to crimp this cartridge that is easy and uniform
Reply

Fred.britishmilitariaforums
Veteran of the Regiment
Joined: 03 Jul 2008, 19:22

04 Jul 2011, 10:45 #122

Why do you want to crimp it? I shot .297-23 and .297-25 for years and never saw the need for a crimp. Same with .310. I only crimp rounds that are going to be fed through a magazine.
Fred
Reply

joelblack88
Veteran of the Regiment
Joined: 01 Feb 2006, 03:21

04 Jul 2011, 12:38 #123

I  don't know about the heel base bullets from the mold, but the swaged ones I am using require a crimp because the stem is slightly loose in the case neck without a crimp.  
Reply

Fred.britishmilitariaforums
Veteran of the Regiment
Joined: 03 Jul 2008, 19:22

04 Jul 2011, 16:33 #124

You don't need a crimp---you need to size the case neck. The bullet will still align in the bore on its major diameter.
Fred
Reply

joelblack88
Veteran of the Regiment
Joined: 01 Feb 2006, 03:21

04 Jul 2011, 21:08 #125

As you can see Kynoch crimped both the 297/250 above and the 297/230 long below. My die will not size the case down to where it will adequately hold the shank of the swaged bullets I am using.
They shoot very accurately with the 4 stake crimp.
Last edited by joelblack88 on 05 Sep 2016, 09:42, edited 2 times in total.
Reply

herbert
Veteran of the Regiment
Joined: 12 Oct 2009, 11:23

04 Jul 2011, 22:17 #126

Fred wrote: Why do you want to crimp it? I shot .297-23 and .297-25 for years and never saw the need for a crimp. Same with .310. I only crimp rounds that are going to be fed through a magazine.
Fred
Quite oftern when walking around after rabits booth with my .310 and the .297-230 I have had the bullets fall out (I have a crimp die for the .310 now and its fixed the problem and would like to treat the 297-230 the same)un crimped cartridges are fine for the range but are not for walking around with them in your pocket
  
Reply

David K
Veteran of the Regiment
Joined: 17 Feb 2009, 23:53

04 Jul 2011, 22:18 #127

I'm sure that Lee will make up factory crimp dies to fit if you send them enough spendy green things with portraits of dead presidents and statesmen on them!  

David
David Kaiser
Montezuma, IA
Reply

Jalapeno Jake
Sergeant Major
Joined: 05 Dec 2003, 06:11

07 Jul 2011, 01:49 #128

Howdy,
For what it is worth CH4D (ch4d.com) list die sets for both the .297/250, .297/230 and the .310 cadet (as well as the .360 Rook #5) for US$ 81.38 for a three die set. You could call and ask the price for a crimp die only.
Jake
Reply

herbert
Veteran of the Regiment
Joined: 12 Oct 2009, 11:23

07 Jul 2011, 02:29 #129

Because the 297-230 uses a healed bass bullet you need a lee type factory crimp die or somthing simular to crimp this round(I think the way the lee factory crimp die works would probly make it unsutable for the very short 230-297 Morris short and long)
Reply

joelblack88
Veteran of the Regiment
Joined: 01 Feb 2006, 03:21

08 Jul 2011, 01:21 #130

Both my 297/230 and 297/250 die sets are CH4D. Lee crimp dies can be made to crimp heel base bullets, but it takes a great deal of machining skill to get them to do the trick. Before I made my simple staking tool, I managed to crimp heel base bullets with bullet pulling collets I altered. This Dixon multi-tool was the inspiration for my slip joint plier crimper.

  
Last edited by joelblack88 on 05 Sep 2016, 09:42, edited 1 time in total.
Reply

Jalapeno Jake
Sergeant Major
Joined: 05 Dec 2003, 06:11

10 Jul 2011, 23:25 #131

My 360 Rook will not chamber a .365 bullet (the correct dia. for the bore) in a .38 Long Colt case (correct length). The max diameter the chamber will accept at the case neck is about .378-.380. I load the cartridge in the usual fashion, then use a .38 super full length resizing die. (neck diameter for .38 super is .382 per COW). This gives me an OD of .377, which chambers. The effect is to swage the part of the bullet in the case. The bullet outside the case doesn't get touched, and remains .365 dia. Gives me the equivalent of a heel based bullet with a nice crimp.  Seems to work - Grant rang the 200 yd gong with it.  A similar system might work as a crimp die with a heel base bullet. 
Jake
Last edited by Jalapeno Jake on 10 Jul 2011, 23:28, edited 1 time in total.
Reply

herbert
Veteran of the Regiment
Joined: 12 Oct 2009, 11:23

11 Jul 2011, 01:05 #132

I do tighten the bullet in the case by running the loaded cartridge through the FL sizer with the de- capping rod removed but still get the occasional bullet falling out in my pocket wile walking around,I think I will have a go at making something similar to the Dixon tool
Reply

joelblack88
Veteran of the Regiment
Joined: 01 Feb 2006, 03:21

17 Jul 2011, 14:23 #133

The trick to making a stake crimper from a slip joint plier is to use the cheapest one you can find which hopefully does not have hardened jaws.
Reply

gcrank1
Veteran of the Regiment
Joined: 17 Mar 2009, 03:06

17 Jul 2011, 17:14 #134

I wonder what might happen if you try a little 'bump die' effect?, maybe you can get the heeled base to expand that wee bit to make it a snug fit in the case mouth.
Reply

joelblack88
Veteran of the Regiment
Joined: 01 Feb 2006, 03:21

21 Jul 2011, 21:25 #135

The reason most crimping tricks don't work is that the case you are trying to crimp is the same diameter as the exposed bullet. If the crimp is successful, it is still likely that the bullet will pull out with the die.
Reply

chrispy6151
Corporal
Joined: 22 Feb 2008, 21:04

13 Jun 2013, 11:11 #136

A few years ago, I started a project to restore a Francotte Martini Cadet in 297/230 Morris Long. It originally came with no fore end, barrel bands etc. Needless to say, manufacturing was the only way to obtain a replacement was to make that. It is located, somewhere in another thread.

Part of the restoration included getting Alan Swann to reface the bolt face. The chamber shows some sign of pitting toward the case mouth end. Apparently this is common amongst Morris chambered cadets. So I created, artfully, some Morris short and long cartridges, using some CH4D dies.

Finally, this is topped off with a CBE cast pill, designed specifically for this round. It casts a heel based 228ish pill, at 41gn, with one grease groove. They are cast in soft lead. Tonight I finger lubed ten pills, and hand seated them over some magnum loads. 1.5gn of 2205 for the short, and 3gns of 2205 for the long. That is a case full!! Projectiles were finger seated.

Tonight, for test of function, I test fired into a ten litre jug, and recovered the pills. All pills bumped up to bore diameter, and not surprisingly, none exited the 10 litre jug. AWESOME POWER.


What surprised me is the amount of deformation of the Morris longs!

Chrispy
Last edited by chrispy6151 on 05 Sep 2016, 09:45, edited 2 times in total.
Reply

klarakos
O/R
Joined: 01 Aug 2014, 11:38

01 Aug 2014, 11:43 #137

If the 297/230 cases are anything like 310s, the original cases were pretty thin. For sure the Bertram 310 cases are right thin in teh neck area, and I undersatnd the origianl 310s were as well.
Last edited by klarakos on 11 Aug 2014, 11:42, edited 2 times in total.
Reply

tjshooter
Sergeant Major
Joined: 05 Apr 2003, 05:11

02 Aug 2014, 17:15 #138

Hi
I shoot .310 with a cast bullet from CBE the heel is undersized for the cases ( converted .32/20) when sized with CH4D dies just hand seated. To ensure the bullets do not come out a little mid strength thread locker on the heel keeps them in fine. Works for me with no lathe or metal working skills.

TJ.
Reply

Fred.britishmilitariaforums
Veteran of the Regiment
Joined: 03 Jul 2008, 19:22

03 Aug 2014, 16:09 #139

I find that , if I tumble the bullets in liquid alox and then hand seat them, then retention is fine.Fred
Reply

tjshooter
Sergeant Major
Joined: 05 Apr 2003, 05:11

03 Aug 2014, 19:10 #140

Yes I use alox but still not 100% with my cases/ bullets combination. Whatever works  for the individual.TJ.
Reply