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Information reqyested Webley "W.S." Army Model

TOElliott
O/R
Joined: July 12th, 2018, 6:51 pm

July 12th, 2018, 7:44 pm #1

I was told on another forum I should post my request for information on this Board. I've been told already the grips aren't original and that it's condition is probably in the 50% area. There's been some debate as to the period of manufacture but somewhere in the early 1900's. Eventually, I'd like to determine it's fair market value. Thanks in advance for any assistance this board can provide. I apologize for my spelling error. pic1.jpg
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Last edited by TOElliott on July 12th, 2018, 8:04 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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TOElliott
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Joined: July 12th, 2018, 6:51 pm

July 12th, 2018, 7:46 pm #2

Additional pics.
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TOElliott
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Joined: July 12th, 2018, 6:51 pm

July 12th, 2018, 7:55 pm #3

Additional pics 2.
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TOElliott
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Joined: July 12th, 2018, 6:51 pm

July 12th, 2018, 7:58 pm #4

Additional pics 3
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joelblack88
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joelblack88
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Joined: February 1st, 2006, 3:21 am

July 19th, 2018, 5:15 pm #5

There is no doubt that Webley made both Army Models and Target Models out of parts on hand. This Target model does not have a hole for the cylinder release lever.



Even more surprising, this WS Army has a MK VI frame. Please note that all the serial numbers match.

 
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TOElliott
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Joined: July 12th, 2018, 6:51 pm

July 19th, 2018, 9:52 pm #6

joelblack88 wrote: There is no doubt that Webley made both Army Models and Target Models out of parts on hand. This Target model does not have a hole for the cylinder release lever.



Even more surprising, this WS Army has a MK VI frame. Please note that all the serial numbers match.

 
Thanks for this information and responding to my request. Want to speculate on the value?
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joelblack88
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joelblack88
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Joined: February 1st, 2006, 3:21 am

July 19th, 2018, 10:49 pm #7

The powers that be on this forum frown on quoting prices.
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lew wallace
Sergeant
Joined: March 13th, 2015, 2:19 pm

July 20th, 2018, 4:45 pm #8

joelblack88 wrote: There is no doubt that Webley made both Army Models and Target Models out of parts on hand. This Target model does not have a hole for the cylinder release lever.

My Target Model has the "crl" hole.
20160403_101230-2.jpg

Even more surprising, this WS Army has a MK VI frame. Please note that all the serial numbers match.

 
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AlanD
Lance Corporal
AlanD
Lance Corporal
Joined: December 14th, 2008, 5:39 am

July 22nd, 2018, 1:38 am #9

Joel, the WS on a MkVI frame is especially interesting as it has British ordnance markings. I assume that it has a six inch barrel. I guess Webley must have had the frame already marked up with the engraving of WS Army Model and got an exemption to use this for a government contract in 1915?

Regards

Alan David
Sydney
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joelblack88
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joelblack88
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Joined: February 1st, 2006, 3:21 am

July 22nd, 2018, 1:44 am #10

It certainly is one of the strangest Webleys I've seen Alan. If I get a chance tomorrow I will post pictures of some others.
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PJGP
Colour Sergeant
PJGP
Colour Sergeant
Joined: February 22nd, 2007, 3:14 am

July 22nd, 2018, 11:20 am #11

The pre-war W.S frames will not accept Mk VI stock plates because the location pins are in different places.  However, my post war W.S Target has them in the same place as has the  Mk VI.

My guess is that this gun is one that had a W.S barrel fitted after the war.

Peter
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PJGP
Colour Sergeant
PJGP
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Joined: February 22nd, 2007, 3:14 am

July 23rd, 2018, 8:24 am #12

PJGP wrote: My guess is that this gun is one that had a W.S barrel fitted after the war.
Looking more closely at the photo, I see that the body has no military inspection stamp.  Also that several parts lack the Broad Arrow and the body has the Winged Bullet trade mark.  I now think that the body must have failed inspection in 1915, or somehow been missed.  Then post war it was resurrected and used as the basis for a W.S.

Peter
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joelblack88
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joelblack88
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July 23rd, 2018, 2:46 pm #13

Peter,

After examining a large number of WS revolvers, I came to the conclusion that many of them were made from parts on hand. This one is a true Frankenstein that was sold by Webley as a WS. The best proof is that the commercial winged bullet can be seen along side of the 1915 military markings. Please also the screw heads do not sport the expected broad arrow.



The other side of the receiver (body) has the full serial number which is a sure indication of a commercial revolver. Please also note the further sloppy work of the over stamping of the 6.

  

The partial serial number is found on the front of the barrel.

 

More importantly, the commercial caliber marking is on the side of the barrel.

 

Finally the full serial number is found on the frame under the grip.

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PJGP
Colour Sergeant
PJGP
Colour Sergeant
Joined: February 22nd, 2007, 3:14 am

July 23rd, 2018, 5:16 pm #14

Thanks Joel, interesting!

Do you have a higher resolution photo of the markings on the side of the top strap?

Peter
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joelblack88
Veteran of the Regiment
joelblack88
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Joined: February 1st, 2006, 3:21 am

July 23rd, 2018, 9:11 pm #15





Sorry for the poor quality but I took 250 pictures that day with my travelling set up.
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AlanD
Lance Corporal
AlanD
Lance Corporal
Joined: December 14th, 2008, 5:39 am

July 29th, 2018, 6:56 am #16

Great photos. I have always found these commercially made but pressed into military service revolvers especially interesting.
So the frame with the winged bullet logo shows that it was made for commercial sale. The 450/455 marking on the barrel signify the same thing.
As pointed out in Joel's post there is a lack of broad arrow markings on the components where they would normally be on a military contract example, such as screw heads, the trigger, barrel latch and so on. Not sure how to explain the inspection mark on the trigger guard.
The ordnance markings on the side of barrel extension are quite different to a normal military contract MkVI. Although the crossed pennant proof mark is there it is larger than normal and does not incorporate the GR initials, like on the cylinder stamping. Also missing is the abbreviated year date such as '15 or '18.

Joel do you have any other examples like this of commercial Webleys from the Great War period that were taken into British service despite not being exactly to pattern. Perhaps start a new thread?

Regards

Alan David
Sydney
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joelblack88
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joelblack88
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Joined: February 1st, 2006, 3:21 am

July 30th, 2018, 12:13 am #17

Alan,

I just got back from 3 days at my favorite gun show where I got 4 very interesting revolvers. I have to take photos of them and catch up on a bunch of other things, but I will search for some more on Friday when I hope to have time..
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