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Greener Police Shotgun help required.

smokey
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smokey
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Joined: November 28th, 2013, 5:34 pm

April 15th, 2018, 9:25 am #1

Recently I acquired a Greener Police shotgun marked "Special Bore".However the Block does not drop far enough to allow a round to be chambered with ease,nor will the round be extracted.

In order to remove a chambered round I must remove the Axix pin allowing the bolt to drop.

I have disassembled the Gun and the only signs of visable wear are on the bottom of the slot in the striker as well as the Axis pin hole being a bit slack.

I would dearly like to use this gun for walked up Grouse shooting without having to carry a Ram Rod to poke the fired cartridges out with.

Can anyone kindly suggest a fix?

Thank you

Mike
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CQMS
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CQMS
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April 15th, 2018, 12:51 pm #2

Welcome to the forum.

Could be a couple of things. Easiest thing to try is to see if someone has tightened the stock bolt too much. If it is, the end of the bolt will protrude into the action more than it should stopping the block from dropping far enough.

Just unscrew it a few turns. If that is the problem, put a flat washer under the head of the bolt and put the bolt back in and retighten.

If that  solution does not help, go onto YouTube and search for Martini Henry block trouble shooting. Martini Neil shows what to look for and the fixes. Could be a mismatched block/extractor but it is easily fixed.

Let us know how you get on.

CQMS
Being first isn't everything. Remember, its the second mouse that gets the cheese!
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smokey
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smokey
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April 15th, 2018, 5:12 pm #3

Thank you CQMS!

I have filed the sharp front edge off the block,I did this to a Rifle That once had the same problem.The Block is not mismatched.

I will have a look at it now,thank you again
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The Double D
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The Double D
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April 15th, 2018, 7:19 pm #4

Why did file the front edge of the block what is that supposed to do.

Round should not be chambered with ease. The round should snap in chamber. When you push a round in it should depress the block to allow the round to chamber. 

If you pull the lever all the way down and hold it will a round then drop in?  That is as it should be.

When opening the action, snap it open, the round should kick out part way.

If you are shooting star crimped shells you will have to pull them out as the star when opened up makes the shells too long for proper extraction and ejection.  

These guns are intended for roll crimped shells.

The stock bolt could be an issue as Clive mentioned,  most likely not.

Operate the lever with vigor.
Douglas

"And don't forget.  That isn't your Martini you have.  It  belonged to others before you and will belong to others after you are gone.  Look after it, and pass it on with pride. It deserves it."  Malcolm Cobb,  The Martini Henry Note-book
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To find things Martini go to: WWW.MartiniHenry.com
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smokey
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smokey
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April 20th, 2018, 4:25 am #5

Douglas

The round  must be forced in with a Dowel.The Rounds I am using are cut back to 2.5 inches with the shot held in place by waterglass.

I filed the lower corner of the block because that was what I did with a Martini that had the same problem.The block was the wrong mark for that gun.

No amount of "Vigor" in the world will extract the fired cartridge as it collides with the face of the block rather than extracting ,necessitating the use of a Rod to poke it out.
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The Double D
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The Double D
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April 20th, 2018, 12:18 pm #6

I suspect the issue is this gun "Special bore" was originally 12/14 with the special bottle neck shell.  Someone rechambered this gun to 12 gauge and did not adjust the load position to fit the larger shell.

Go to this post and learn how to adjust load position: mh-block-striker-adjustments-t2597.html

Point A is the web between the two horns of the lever.  The instructions say depress with a punch.  It is alright to file. Do a little at a time. With lever open a shell should not drop in the chamber.  It should take slight thumb pressure to snap the shell in the chamber.

With the shell in the chamber the top of the block should pop up and catch just the bottom edge of the shell and hold it in the chamber. With the lever fully depressed, the shell should fall out or extract. 

Because of size of the 12Gauge shell it may not always eject. 

This last bit is a warning to other readers. Never ever file on breechblocks.  The breech block is your locking lug.  Filing can weaken the block.

One model of Martini Henry has a breech block with a shorter face and requires a matching extractor. If you encounter a MH that will not open fully, look and see if you have right breech block- extractor combination. If you don't, change the breech block or extractor to the correct one. You can post here on the board and we will look up the correct combination for you.

At the top of the Gunsmithing forum you will find posted as 4 stickies the Armorer's instructions for Martini's.  These are all the instructions required to work in the Martini action.
Douglas

"And don't forget.  That isn't your Martini you have.  It  belonged to others before you and will belong to others after you are gone.  Look after it, and pass it on with pride. It deserves it."  Malcolm Cobb,  The Martini Henry Note-book
*********
To find things Martini go to: WWW.MartiniHenry.com
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smokey
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smokey
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April 21st, 2018, 4:21 am #7

Douglas

Thank you for your comprehensive reply.

The Gun appears to be in 14 Bore and not reamed out to 12.I do wish to Ream it in the future however.
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The Double D
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The Double D
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April 21st, 2018, 3:15 pm #8

Why ream it, Make 14 gauge shells from brass 12 gauge cases.  I suspect that all you  problems will disappear with the correct shell.
Douglas

"And don't forget.  That isn't your Martini you have.  It  belonged to others before you and will belong to others after you are gone.  Look after it, and pass it on with pride. It deserves it."  Malcolm Cobb,  The Martini Henry Note-book
*********
To find things Martini go to: WWW.MartiniHenry.com
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yulzari
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yulzari
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April 21st, 2018, 5:51 pm #9

Douglas. Pray do tell how one does this conversion down from 12 to 14? 

John
My religion consists in a firelock, open touch hole, good flint, well rammed charge, and seventy rounds of powder and ball. - Private Jack Careless.
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fred2892
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fred2892
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April 22nd, 2018, 7:38 am #10

yulzari wrote:Douglas. Pray do tell how one does this conversion down from 12 to 14? 

John
Like this.

There's a topic discussing this.


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"All men dream: but not equally. Those who dream by night in the dusty recesses of their minds wake in the day to find that it was vanity: but the dreamers of the day are dangerous men, for they may act their dreams with open eyes, to make it possible. This I did." T.E. Lawrence
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yulzari
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yulzari
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April 22nd, 2018, 9:05 am #11

Ah. 12 to 12/14 Greener. Silly me!

I ended up progressively fire forming 16 bore cartridges to 14 for my long gone MkI Police Gun.
My religion consists in a firelock, open touch hole, good flint, well rammed charge, and seventy rounds of powder and ball. - Private Jack Careless.
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PommyB
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PommyB
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April 22nd, 2018, 9:26 am #12

Gents, I believe the 'Special Bore' denotes the straight 14g shell that was later supplanted by the bottlenecked 12/14g of the Greener EG.
"For a man, be he ever so much resolved to do his duty as a parent, can't be flogging his children all day....."

The Memoirs of Barry Lyndon, Esq. (William Thackeray).
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yulzari
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yulzari
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April 23rd, 2018, 7:58 am #13

My MkI was in Greener Special and that was straight 14.
My religion consists in a firelock, open touch hole, good flint, well rammed charge, and seventy rounds of powder and ball. - Private Jack Careless.
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The Double D
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April 23rd, 2018, 11:06 am #14

So to step back from assumption.  Is this a 14 gauge or is this a 12 gauge with reduced chamber.
Douglas

"And don't forget.  That isn't your Martini you have.  It  belonged to others before you and will belong to others after you are gone.  Look after it, and pass it on with pride. It deserves it."  Malcolm Cobb,  The Martini Henry Note-book
*********
To find things Martini go to: WWW.MartiniHenry.com
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CQMS
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CQMS
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April 23rd, 2018, 11:37 am #15

I think a chamber cast would solve a lot of questions regarding bore and possible cartridge size/shape. Cerrosafe melts at relatively low temperature and could be used for that.

This shotgun worked before, it can be made to work again.

CQMS
Being first isn't everything. Remember, its the second mouse that gets the cheese!
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smokey
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smokey
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June 15th, 2018, 1:15 pm #16

The gun is 14 bore.

I cannot find 14 bore shotshells in Europe,I would enjoy some Brass ones
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Joined: November 5th, 2009, 8:41 pm

June 19th, 2018, 11:32 am #17

The Greener Egyptian Police Gun cartridge (aka Mk.1) was not a standard straight 14 bore. It used a special case, 2 1/2” long, with a slight taper.
The base diameter in front of the rim was .768 low to .772 high. The maximum base diameter for 14 bore was .772 so the base dimension is the same between the two cartridges, but the mouth diameter for the Greener cartridge was .738 low to .742 high (chamber dimension was .750 chamber mouth. 12/4/1922 drawing)
The maximum case mouth diameter for a 14 bore was .760 which is larger than the Greener special cartridge and chamber.

(Dimensions of the Greener cartridge are from ICI drawing BK251 235A)

Interestingly, the Mk.III cartridge has a case mouth dimension the same as the Mk.I.
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smokey
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smokey
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July 7th, 2018, 5:14 am #18

Thank you for your information! I would like to use this shotgun a little more,perhaps honing the bore to 12 gauge would be the easiest solution?

I have fired a few 16 gauge black powder shells in it,the paper cartridge expanded to seal the chamber.Interestingly I found the Cartridges in my House,they were at least 70 years old and all went off.
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yulzari
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yulzari
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July 7th, 2018, 7:30 am #19

Smokey. Beware of using 16 bore cartridges in the Special Bore. The reason why they changed to the next design was finding that Egyptian criminals were using 16 bore cartridges wrapped in tape in the 14 bore Greener Police guns. It was found out when a murder attempt using a borrowed Police Greener failed and the attempted murderer badly injured when his old cheap badly stored paper French 16 bore cartridge split and the rim failed to hold the pressure and it all vented back into his face. I stopped using my fire formed brass 16 bore cartridges and sold the Greener without cartridges. I believed that I was in the position that it was fine as long as it was fine but could go very wrong if it went wrong, The danger was very small but the hazard is very real.

Drawings from earlier posts on the subject:
14bEgyptianPoliceGun.jpg Greener1.jpg Greener2.jpg greener-1a.jpg John
My religion consists in a firelock, open touch hole, good flint, well rammed charge, and seventy rounds of powder and ball. - Private Jack Careless.
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smokey
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smokey
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July 21st, 2018, 11:13 am #20

Thank you very much for your reply.

I shall cease to use 16 gauge shells in my Gun.Instead I will hone it to accept 12 gauge shells.
There seems to be very little honing required in order to open the chamber to accept 12 gauge.
I will still have to remedy the problem of the block not dropping far enough,judging by the dents on the block the local Police remedy was to beat the block with something hard.
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