Moderators: The Double D, Viclav, Johnny Yuma, GrantR Canada, Carignan Salieres

577 2 1/2" for a BP martini sporter?

Bulletproof
Sergeant Major
Bulletproof
Sergeant Major
Joined: December 6th, 2002, 9:26 am

January 28th, 2004, 3:29 am #1

I'm finally going to start my martini project and want to make something big to use with with black powder. I remembered one of coyote's old posts about rebarrelling a martini for 577 snider. With a coyote 590/450 hunter bullet just on the edge of a regular 577 snider case, which would simulate a 2.4" case length, it will turn the corner in the martini fine. I'll have to see if it will handle an extra .1" though. This would mean about 130+ grains of Fg behind whatever bullet I shoot.

What do you guys think of this idea? Were there ever any 577 2.5" cartridges or would this be a wildcat?

Brett
Quote
Like
Share

CoyoteAndMommote
Veteran of the Regiment
CoyoteAndMommote
Veteran of the Regiment
Joined: March 16th, 2002, 7:49 am

January 28th, 2004, 4:00 am #2

Brett,

The 2.5" will turn the corner with ease...but that's at the maximum. I have this very project going on and am on the hunt for a fast twist steel Snider barrel to finish the project. The 2.4" Magtech case loaded with the .590/450 Mini Hunter, base plug, and a 3/16" scrubber and 4 milk carton wads, holds 150 grains of Elephant fg with just a hint of compression. The .590/485DB Hunter would be a good bullet for this as well. "The attacker must vanquish, the defender, has but to prevail." --Coyot
"The attacker must vanquish, the defender has only to prevail." --Coyoté
Quote
Like
Share

Carignan Salieres
Veteran of the Regiment
Carignan Salieres
Veteran of the Regiment
Joined: October 26th, 2002, 7:28 am

January 28th, 2004, 4:20 pm #3

seems like a nice couple of rifles being built. That sounds like quite a round too. Pictures and reports will be required when they are completed! But I guess we don't even have to remind you of that.
Quote
Like
Share

Bulletproof
Sergeant Major
Bulletproof
Sergeant Major
Joined: December 6th, 2002, 9:26 am

January 28th, 2004, 4:46 pm #4

Coyote,

What are you going to do for a reamer? Would you just get a shortened version of the 577 3" made up?

I'm planning on starting with a new barrel, I was planning on a gain twist but my barrelmaker/gunsmith said he didn't have the tooling for .585 last time I asked. Most .585 barrels I've seen are twisted for about 1 in 18".

I'll probably make up some custom .585 moulds in 500-600 grain, and maybe try out some 650 grain woodleighs for my bullets.

Brett
Quote
Like
Share

CoyoteAndMommote
Veteran of the Regiment
CoyoteAndMommote
Veteran of the Regiment
Joined: March 16th, 2002, 7:49 am

January 28th, 2004, 7:06 pm #5

Brett,

The modern barrels twist a bit fast for lead and black powder... not to mention their being a bit pricey.

The reamer is pretty straight forward, it is a stretched Snider, or a shortened 3" BPE. The neck dimensions are the same on all three.

Ideally, I would like to build a .605" major axis/.575" minor axis Oval bore barrel with a slight gain twist of 1~36" at the breech to 1~34" at the muzzle, and would stabilize a 620 grain solid with no problem ... But in the mean time, a 1~48" twist "orphaned" Snider barrel, or old .58 calibre muzzle stuffer barrel, that needs a home, will not be turned away... "The attacker must vanquish, the defender, has but to prevail." --Coyot
"The attacker must vanquish, the defender has only to prevail." --Coyoté
Quote
Like
Share

Bulletproof
Sergeant Major
Bulletproof
Sergeant Major
Joined: December 6th, 2002, 9:26 am

January 28th, 2004, 8:33 pm #6

Coyote,

I thought that 1in18" would be a little fast but most guys will do other twists if you ask. I'll have to see if my gunsmith here can make one, usually his barrels are pretty reasonable (usually about $200 canadian for a stainless blank) so it probably wouldn't be too much more than finding an old barrel in good condition.

Whats your opinion on the amount of grooves to get? on pac-nor they list 9 but wouldn't less be better to reduce fouling in BP?

Brett
Quote
Like
Share

CoyoteAndMommote
Veteran of the Regiment
CoyoteAndMommote
Veteran of the Regiment
Joined: March 16th, 2002, 7:49 am

January 28th, 2004, 11:43 pm #7

Brett,

Three wide grooves is good... the more rifling you have, the more crannies there are for fouling to collect. A twist rate of 1~30 to 1~40 woud be good ...A 1~35" Oval bore would be the "hot set-up" in my opinion!"The attacker must vanquish, the defender, has but to prevail." --Coyot
"The attacker must vanquish, the defender has only to prevail." --Coyoté
Quote
Like
Share

38 Cal
Sergeant Major
38 Cal
Sergeant Major
Joined: May 13th, 2003, 7:33 am

January 29th, 2004, 12:40 am #8

The Lancaster rifle I have (.360 BPE) not only has a gain looking twist to it, but also is tapered, about .009" deeper at the breech than muzzle.

David
Quote
Like
Share

CoyoteAndMommote
Veteran of the Regiment
CoyoteAndMommote
Veteran of the Regiment
Joined: March 16th, 2002, 7:49 am

January 29th, 2004, 2:51 am #9

David,

You're correct! Most all of the big, black powder, lead chuckin' Brits, have a slight taper from the breech... even the Martini Henry and Ol' Snidfield... "The attacker must vanquish, the defender, has but to prevail." --Coyot
"The attacker must vanquish, the defender has only to prevail." --Coyoté
Quote
Like
Share

38 Cal
Sergeant Major
38 Cal
Sergeant Major
Joined: May 13th, 2003, 7:33 am

January 29th, 2004, 5:51 am #10

Hey, watcha know, Coyote just called my .360 BPE a "BIG, black powder, lead chuckin' Brit"!!! And here I am, thinkin that that little 190 gr. slug was kinda puny! (Of course, I wouldn't want to get in front of any of 'em...might just make one a little bit ill! )

David
Quote
Like
Share

Bulletproof
Sergeant Major
Bulletproof
Sergeant Major
Joined: December 6th, 2002, 9:26 am

January 29th, 2004, 6:17 am #11

Looks like I'll have to talk to the barrel maker and see if he can do it. I know he makes .510 cal barrels so maybe I'll look into a 50 cal of some kind as a backup.

Brett
Quote
Like
Share

CoyoteAndMommote
Veteran of the Regiment
CoyoteAndMommote
Veteran of the Regiment
Joined: March 16th, 2002, 7:49 am

January 29th, 2004, 8:24 am #12

David,

Heck, that 360 meets all the criteria with one word... "Lancaster". You know it's curious, the modern rifling method using buttons and all, makes it very difficult to taper the bore. However, it's easy when you do cut rifling by the old tried and true, both hands and eyes to the bench, method ... 'course you can't stamp those out like coins at the mint, like you can with button rifling. In any case in an age when military rifles of .223" or 5.56mm are the norm... that 360 BPE is a definite big bore! And old Snidfield is a small field piece, and a four bore is an out and out piece of a major artillery ... (chuckle) ... "The attacker must vanquish, the defender, has but to prevail." --Coyot
"The attacker must vanquish, the defender has only to prevail." --Coyoté
Quote
Like
Share

Bulletproof
Sergeant Major
Bulletproof
Sergeant Major
Joined: December 6th, 2002, 9:26 am

January 30th, 2004, 12:51 am #13

Coyote,

I have an idea for another cartridge as a backup if 585 barrels are out. What about a 577/450 2 3/4" Where the neck and shoulder are the same or similar dimensions to the 577-450 martini except that it would use regular .458 bullets. you could seat bullets out to about 3.5" while still being able to turn the corner and it should hold about 140-150 grains of BP. What do you think?

Brett
Quote
Like
Share

CoyoteAndMommote
Veteran of the Regiment
CoyoteAndMommote
Veteran of the Regiment
Joined: March 16th, 2002, 7:49 am

June 6th, 2005, 12:38 am #14

updated"The attacker must vanquish, the defender, has but to prevail." --Coyot
"The attacker must vanquish, the defender has only to prevail." --Coyoté
Quote
Like
Share

Csaranchai
Corporal
Csaranchai
Corporal
Joined: August 12th, 2011, 3:45 pm

October 6th, 2014, 3:02 am #15

Hello guys, i am usualy into double rifles, but i love the martini, mine being a 577/450 sporter from holts london 2011 march closed bid sale, photo in archives.. I also have a greener 12 bore GP shotgun, and have made up a barrel from 5/8 bore 1 1/4 vickers steel, i rifled it usind a twisted square rod running through a sq hole, i was not too happy with the finished rifling as one groove did not run thr full length as the tool broke, the extraudinary cartridge was 12 bore necked down to 5/8 , the barrel looked good when screwed into the GP's actionbut it was just too much of a cannon, never fired it. GP shotguns are much cheaper than the real martini and have the advantage of having a.larger barrel thread and the action is 1/8 wider and can accomodatevslightly longer brass. my frustration for a big bore martini drew me back to holts closed bit auction om march 2011 in london, lot a 577 henry rifled barrel 33" long in the white i guess unused , i just about recal it, thanks to Kelly at holts the barrel being unsold a deal was struck and its mine to collect for £250...i am in perth oz with my cousin sussing out the hunting scene, dosent seem to be any, need to be in norther territory, nice holiday just the wrong place. So next week i will do the 360 mile round trip to norfolk to collect it. I have made a number of succesful reamers by grinding down the edges of a file to match the cartridge case and finish with a diamong stone, i started this method as i have always made my own reloading dies, its all just a bit of careful hand work, then go steady on the lathe. I hope my words give others some support not to give up on their projects, projects do go wrong, but thats the learning curve, will comment again with reports of progress. Great words of interst from you guys, i wish you well good projects and shooting, Gordon csaranchai@aol.com
Quote
Like
Share