.310 Cadet Brass

A new forum just for the miniature Martinis, Sniders, Morris Tubes, Greener/Bonehill Conversions, other smallbore versions of military rifles, and Rook Rifles
of all sorts.

Moderators: Johnny Yuma, GrantR Canada, Carignan Salieres, The Double D, Viclav

.310 Cadet Brass

Ash
Lance Corporal
Ash
Lance Corporal
Joined: 05 Mar 2011, 07:51

05 Mar 2011, 07:51 #1

Just wondering why I've never read about any one from this forum using Bertram .310 Brass?
Is there a reason for this, sizes are out etc?
http://westernfirearms.com.au/reloading ... ddutl7u442

Hopefully picking up mine this month, being waiting since August/September! Should be a fun bunny buster and a nice light carry round gun.

Also, I've read several here, but what are some good loads people have found for theirs? What moulds do i buy? What do i need?
Will be first venture into hand loading and casting etc, Yays!

Cheers,
Ash.
Last edited by Ash on 05 Mar 2011, 08:00, edited 1 time in total.
Reply
Like

herbert
Veteran of the Regiment
herbert
Veteran of the Regiment
Joined: 12 Oct 2009, 11:23

05 Mar 2011, 11:21 #2

Bertram brass is very good,I yous it in a number of calibers and never had any complaints except price,CBE makes a number of moulds for the .310 cadet if you are yousing Bertram brass I recomend the new reduced heel bullet from CBEfor the .310 cadet and 4.5gr of Trail Boss powder,I also recommend getting a Lee 32 magnum factory crimp die to crimp the loaded cartridges with the larger heeled bullets in them
Reply
Like

Fred.britishmilitariaforums
Veteran of the Regiment
Fred.britishmilitariaforums
Veteran of the Regiment
Joined: 03 Jul 2008, 19:22

05 Mar 2011, 13:06 #3

Bertram Brass has a bad reputation in some places because it is very hard as received. it can split on neck exanding or on first firing. I use it in several calibres and always start by annealing the new brass. After annealing, I have never lost a case.
Fred
Reply
Like

Ash
Lance Corporal
Ash
Lance Corporal
Joined: 05 Mar 2011, 07:51

05 Mar 2011, 14:24 #4

Thanks for the info guys.
I'll pick up all you listed Herbert. What FPS will the 4.5gr of Trail Boss give?
And will try a couple without annealing then if theres loss will anneal the rest.

Cheers,
Ash
Reply
Like

Tacolneston
Veteran of the Regiment
Tacolneston
Veteran of the Regiment
Joined: 02 Nov 2003, 01:04

05 Mar 2011, 14:40 #5

I use Bertram cases when I need to, but for many calibres other makes are cheaper.  For the .310 I use cut down .32-20 cases without problems, but for some guns the rims are slightly over size.  Heeled bullets are cast in an RCBS mould.  I agree with Herbert that life is much easier with a Lee factory crimp die - mine is a cut down .32-20. 
Reply
Like

David K
Veteran of the Regiment
David K
Veteran of the Regiment
Joined: 17 Feb 2009, 23:53

05 Mar 2011, 14:52 #6

I use cut down 32-20 brass in mine, had to thin the rims just a bit.  For a bullet mould, I use a modified Lyman 311008 that I set up in the lathe and used a boring bar to make a "stop ring" to fill the groove diameter forward of the crimp groove.  Opened up the base band just a bit at the same time.  I don't have my loading notes in front of me, but I've been using light loads of IMR 4227 in it.  Bullets are thumb seated in the case, no dies needed.

David
David Kaiser
Montezuma, IA
Reply
Like

gcrank1
Veteran of the Regiment
gcrank1
Veteran of the Regiment
Joined: 17 Mar 2009, 03:06

05 Mar 2011, 16:14 #7

The 32's dont need a lot of velocity to be effective small game getters; example, the Rook & Rabbit cartridges.
The larger frontal area, especially if a flatish nose, imparts a lot of thwack and kills better than a 22LR in many
cases. A velo of anywhere from sub-sonic (call it 1000fps) to 1250ish will be all you need with cast bullets and
should be easy to find acceptable accuracy.
Make sure you use a bullets of large enough dia.! Slug the bore, especially at the breech and see what fire-formed
case necks want to fill them up. Too small a dia. bullet will be an exercise in frustration.
Reply
Like

Ian
Veteran of the Regiment
Ian
Veteran of the Regiment
Joined: 18 Mar 2002, 01:27

05 Mar 2011, 18:28 #8

An exercize in frustration for sure My cadet has a like new bore that slugs .313", the original Kynoch ammo I have has a .325" dia bullet, I couldn't figure out why it was so much over bore size, I shot 32/20 Winchester ammo out of it with hour of barn door accuracy and then reloaded using .32 auto bullets with no better luck. I don't have a heeled bullet mould and as I only wanted to plink or take a few gophers I didn't feel the urge to buy one . So there it sits in the gun vault all lonely while I use my 22's or my 32/20 for gophers. cheers Ian.
It's not so much the size of the hole but where it is
Reply
Like

Ian
Veteran of the Regiment
Ian
Veteran of the Regiment
Joined: 18 Mar 2002, 01:27

05 Mar 2011, 18:33 #9

An exercize in frustration for sure My cadet has a like new bore that slugs .313", the original Kynoch ammo I have has a .325" dia bullet, I couldn't figure out why it was so much over bore size, I shot 32/20 Winchester ammo out of it with hour of barn door accuracy and then reloaded using .32 auto bullets with no better luck. I don't have a heeled bullet mould and as I only wa

nted to plink or take a few gophers I didn't feel the urge to buy one . So there it sits in the gun vault all lonely while I use my 22's or my 32/20 for gophers. cheers Ian. SORRY how do you cancel a double post???
Last edited by Ian on 05 Mar 2011, 18:36, edited 1 time in total.
It's not so much the size of the hole but where it is
Reply
Like

Jim Durling
Veteran of the Regiment
Jim Durling
Veteran of the Regiment
Joined: 20 Jan 2006, 02:15

05 Mar 2011, 18:58 #10

I use 32/20 cases cut down, I use Starline brass as the rims are thinner so chamber without thinning. For bullets I use HBWC in .314 these were made for 32acp when we had pistols.

Jim
Reply
Like

Tacolneston
Veteran of the Regiment
Tacolneston
Veteran of the Regiment
Joined: 02 Nov 2003, 01:04

05 Mar 2011, 21:29 #11

Rereading the thread I noticed that I hadn't mentioned any loads.

My standard load with the RCBS bullet is 3.3 grains of Bullseye.  I comes out at 960fps and is accurate at 100 yards. For a faster load I use 4.5 grains of Unique, but that expands the cases more, and as I don't need the velocity, more often than not I use Bullseye.  The only disadvantage is that as it is a light load the front of the cases end up smoked so they need to be cleaned.

I usually tumble lube the bullets.  This is to make life easier when cleaning cases.  If I hand lube the bullets with any form of grease the ouside lube groove means that some gets on to the chamber wall, thence on to the case, which makes them a pain to clean.    
Reply
Like

gungadoug
Sergeant
gungadoug
Sergeant
Joined: 17 Aug 2009, 22:25

05 Mar 2011, 22:35 #12

Dang! Ian, if you have a problem with the Cadet, I will be pleased to act as counsellor/ stress relief analyst and take the cursed thing off your hands! Be aware this involves considerable risk on my part, so will have to involve the local magistrate as well as clergy.
In reality, I think the RCBS mould, Lee LLA, and thumb seating with 4.5 Unique could solve the problems. No crimp, and you can certainly pull the bullet out with your fingers, but no bullet pull is necessary. Just cut the cases to the length that the bullet will set against the rifling, and the LLA will be sticky enough to keep them in place.
Thanks, Doug
Reply
Like

Fred.britishmilitariaforums
Veteran of the Regiment
Fred.britishmilitariaforums
Veteran of the Regiment
Joined: 03 Jul 2008, 19:22

05 Mar 2011, 22:42 #13

I used 4.5grn of Unique for about 10yrs, but after they changed to "new improved" Unique I found the velocity had increased to almost 1400'/sec and I was getting a lead build up in front of the chamber. I reduced the load to 4.2grn and am now getting 1170'/sec with no leading. In the process, I noticed that Starline and Winchester brass gave different results due to the case capacity being different.
Fred
Reply
Like

gcrank1
Veteran of the Regiment
gcrank1
Veteran of the Regiment
Joined: 17 Mar 2009, 03:06

06 Mar 2011, 14:50 #14

Ian, if you can give this a try, but you will need to find some 8mm Nambu pistol bullets cast of WWt is fine.
Open action, drop one in the chamber, follow it with a charged case that has been shortened enough to fit
behind and is capped with a card or wax wad.
Oh.....those 32-20 loads probably had soft swagged lead bullets and may have leaded the bore.
As you well know, death to accuracy; and after the frustrating performance it can be easy to miss.
Reply
Like

The Double D
Veteran of the Regiment
The Double D
Veteran of the Regiment
Joined: 11 Mar 2003, 05:45

06 Mar 2011, 16:11 #15

Ian,

I believe Richard has some proper heeled .310 bullets of mine you may have you may have.

I will also tell you that I have had any number person tell me that they have a .310 Cadet with a bore smaller that .321 bore. Of those who obliged me to send a slug, I only had one send a slug that measured under .321. That fellow could not be convinced that to slug a bore you need to start with a slug larger than the bore. .32's don't gut it.

I have only the CH4D dies and the the secret of bullet seating is to understand how a taper die works and adjust the seating stem too crimp occurs when the bullet seat. I have helped several people set up their regular dies to taper crimp properly and they set the Lee "factory crimp" die aside.

The only variance I have seen in the .310 chambers is the with rim.

All the other issues have to do with wrong components. One of the mass market cast bullet companies was selling a LBT 32 Gas check bullet with out a gas check as .310 cadet bullet. Short shank, and short ogive, made the bullet stick in the throat. The RCBS and CBE Cadet bullet have a proerly shape nose to avoid the problem
Douglas

"And don't forget.  That isn't your Martini you have.  It  belonged to others before you and will belong to others after you are gone.  Look after it, and pass it on with pride. It deserves it."  Malcolm Cobb,  The Martini Henry Note-book
*********
To find things Martini go to: WWW.MartiniHenry.com
Reply
Like

Old Coaster
Sergeant Major
Old Coaster
Sergeant Major
Joined: 15 Apr 2009, 11:16

06 Mar 2011, 18:00 #16

Gcrank1 above compares the .310 Cadet to the .22LR as a 'game getter.' I have an old Parker Hale catalogue from the 1950s which lists the Kynoch factory loaded specs for the Cadet as:- Muzzle velocity 1200 fps, muzzle energy as 385 ft lbs. The subsonic .22 LR rimfire equivalents are 1145 fps and 116 ft lbs. The Kynoch loaded 32-20 Win. with a 115 grn bullet for comparison is given as 1400 fps and 500 ft. lbs. The same Winchester load specs with a 100 grn bullet is 1290 fps and 370 ft lbs. As for using cutdown 32-20 Win. brass, new Western Winchester brass I have found needs no re-sizing once the case has been shortened and the rim thinned, while Remington brass needs the full process including re-sizing.
Reply
Like

Fred.britishmilitariaforums
Veteran of the Regiment
Fred.britishmilitariaforums
Veteran of the Regiment
Joined: 03 Jul 2008, 19:22

06 Mar 2011, 18:55 #17

Over the years I have shortened Winchester, Remington and Starline brass. My own two 310s, a Cadet and a BSA no6, do not need the rims thinned down, but we have several in our club that do. My two rifles have different chambers. For the cadet, no re-sizing is needed and the bullets can be pushed home by hand, the step in the RCBS bullet acts as a stop ring. The no6 has a slack chamber and cases need to be re-sized before use. I suspect that, for 32-20 brass to not need re-sizing before use, the chamber must be very slack.
Incidentally, I have yet to find a single shot rifle that needs its ammunition to be crimped. I crimp anything that goes into a magazine.
Fred
Reply
Like

Ian
Veteran of the Regiment
Ian
Veteran of the Regiment
Joined: 18 Mar 2002, 01:27

06 Mar 2011, 21:16 #18

Well as if I don't have enough projects on the go, I just had to pull the cadet out check a few things I first sl ugged the bore and after what you said Doug I used a pope style bullet I had which measures .324 on th front driving band and .333 on the base band, as it has 5 grooves I rolled the slug around in the caliper and couldn't get more than .314. The next step was to make a chamber cast  so I would have a measurement of the throat and rifling in the breach, the throat measures .324 and tapers to the  rifling which is .315 you can see the taper in the pic,I then measured the head space and found a tight .009" between bolt head and barrel which also explains why I can use 32/20 std rims. The Greener barrel and frame have 1 serial number and the action has another the frame has been re stamped along with barrel the barrel number cancelled out in the typical fashion a little dash through each number, who and when it was done will be an eternal mystery. the action parts are all like new and bright case hardening with no wear on the loading lever ears . I will look into those heeled bullets and try again when I get around to it .cheers Ian.
It's not so much the size of the hole but where it is
Reply
Like

gcrank1
Veteran of the Regiment
gcrank1
Veteran of the Regiment
Joined: 17 Mar 2009, 03:06

06 Mar 2011, 22:05 #19

Old Coaster, I admit that a sub-sonic 22LR is no comparison to a factory loaded .310 !
If memory serves, the specs Ive seen on a number of the R&R cartridges put them into that 900-1000fps
realm, and with a 100ish gr. bullet loaded such in a .310 should be a dandy small gamer; was in my 32-20
anyway.
Some of my experiments have failed, but if I can fill a throat with the right dia. lead bullet fixed ammo or
modified 'breech seated' as above, they have all been shooters. What I like to find out is if the thing has some
potential before I spend a bunch on dies, moulds, etc. Thinking 'outside the box' has been useful.
Reply
Like

JB White
Sergeant Major
JB White
Sergeant Major
Joined: 18 Mar 2003, 04:24

07 Mar 2011, 08:28 #20

I crimp my Cadet loads for storage and transportation as insurance that I won't jostle a round loose in the box while handling. It only happened on one occasion but once was enough.

I didn't realize a 32 mag FC die would work on Cadet rounds due to the smaller diameter of the intended case. That would have saved me the trouble of modifying a 32-20 FC die.

Q: The Cadet bullet doesn't drag inside the die due to the heeled design? I needed to bevel the collet in mine to alleviate that.

Also, does the 32 mag crimp die adjust for both long and short cases? Can't see how but I'm asking anyway. I could only set my modified die to crimp one length so chose the long one as they fit in my rifle.

I use a 32 HBWC bullet for fireforming my cutdown 32-20 brass. Same load data as a 32 S&W Long. The hollow base obdurates quite well at the lower velocities and short range accuracy inside 50 yards is impressive. I've also used swaged lead bullets with liquid alox lube at moderate velocities with no leading to speak of. Since I don't cast it's great to have alternatives to the heeled bullets.
Reply
Like