1878 Martini Henry MKII from IMA - Unissued?

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1878 Martini Henry MKII from IMA - Unissued?

1878mh
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Joined: May 16th, 2018, 5:39 pm

May 16th, 2018, 5:46 pm #1

Would it be common for an 1878-dated MH MkII to be found in unissued condition?

I ordered a hand-select from IMA and got one that looks amazing,  As I looked over it, I did not see any of the markings normally associated with MkIIs of various vintages, like barrel wear, strengthened extractor retrofit, etc., nor were there any rack numbers on the stock.

I wonder, is it possible this was built and kept in arsenal until transfer to the Nepalese in 1895 (the only date on the stock, stamped II/1895 near the roundel)

Plenty of proof marks and war department acceptance marks but no evidence it was issued or even used much!
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Johnny Yuma
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Johnny Yuma
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Joined: November 16th, 2009, 1:07 am

May 16th, 2018, 6:57 pm #2

Hey 1878, Welcome.
Sounds like you did OK with your IMA purchase. Try to figure out the photo posting, (Everyone does eventually)
And throw some pictures of the rifle up for us to see.
Best, Johnny
"The Ideal situation, is that a man acquire a British flintlock musket or pistol every day. Any more and he will be perceived as greedy. Any less and his dedication will be suspect."
Johnny Yuma
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1878mh
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Joined: May 16th, 2018, 5:39 pm

May 16th, 2018, 7:09 pm #3

I will work on it this week.  The rifle is a present for dad, so I have a few months with it around before the next big holiday.  I also acquired a box of 10 Kynoch rounds dated '49.  Sketchy, I know, but it might be fun to fire it once just for good measure, then clean the heck out of the bore LOL.
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Johnny Yuma
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Johnny Yuma
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Joined: November 16th, 2009, 1:07 am

May 16th, 2018, 8:07 pm #4

Yeah, The original Kynoch are almost legendary for their unpredictability. Ive shot some, and the biggest problem was delayed detonation. "Click.....Bang", Also case neck cracks as I recall. 
"The Ideal situation, is that a man acquire a British flintlock musket or pistol every day. Any more and he will be perceived as greedy. Any less and his dedication will be suspect."
Johnny Yuma
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1878mh
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Joined: May 16th, 2018, 5:39 pm

May 17th, 2018, 1:41 am #5

1878 Martini Henry by Enfield, MK II. Sorry for poor quality, still learning how to post here.

20180516_211815.jpg

20180516_211703.jpg 20180516_211715.jpg 20180516_211800.jpg 20180516_211809.jpg .
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RudyN
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Joined: March 24th, 2016, 4:02 am

May 17th, 2018, 3:20 am #6

I don't care if some of the pictures are upside down, that is a very nice looking Martini Hen ry.
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The Double D
Veteran of the Regiment
The Double D
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Joined: March 11th, 2003, 5:45 am

May 17th, 2018, 5:27 am #7

The butt stock markings are counterfeit.  No Martini was marked like that. That does not look like,original wood. The butt stock shape is wrong.
Douglas

"And don't forget.  That isn't your Martini you have.  It  belonged to others before you and will belong to others after you are gone.  Look after it, and pass it on with pride. It deserves it."  Malcolm Cobb,  The Martini Henry Note-book
*********
To find things Martini go to: WWW.MartiniHenry.com
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fred2892
Colour Sergeant
fred2892
Colour Sergeant
Joined: January 27th, 2006, 2:09 am

May 17th, 2018, 7:50 am #8

Bit of a puzzle here. The rest of the Gun (as far as the pictures show) looks like a nice example of a MkII. But somethings not right about the butt. Is it even walnut? If it didn't have the Enfield RM cartouche I would have said it's a Nepalese replacement. As it's from IMA, I doubt if there's any shenanigans on their part. It's possible you have been sent a customer return I suppose. Let's see some more pics. Barrel bands, foresight, full length and the N.S. N.E.P. stamp. I seem to remember a post concerning a MkIV that had similar immaculate Nepalese stamps from a few years back.

Sent from my SM-T805 using Tapatalk


"All men dream: but not equally. Those who dream by night in the dusty recesses of their minds wake in the day to find that it was vanity: but the dreamers of the day are dangerous men, for they may act their dreams with open eyes, to make it possible. This I did." T.E. Lawrence
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PommyB
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PommyB
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Joined: September 3rd, 2009, 9:41 pm

May 17th, 2018, 10:32 am #9

The stock, judging by the colour & grain, looks like those replacement sets IMA were having made in India.
"For a man, be he ever so much resolved to do his duty as a parent, can't be flogging his children all day....."

The Memoirs of Barry Lyndon, Esq. (William Thackeray).
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hopmanhenk
Sergeant Major
hopmanhenk
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Joined: November 20th, 2008, 10:19 pm

May 17th, 2018, 10:33 am #10

fred, I would not be so sure.. this is the 3rd martini that I saw on the internet in the last month that was purchased "cleaned and complete" with that same immaculate wood and circular set of nepalese stamps around an Enfield roundel. One buyer called IMA and was told it was "period correct"
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1878mh
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Joined: May 16th, 2018, 5:39 pm

May 17th, 2018, 10:38 am #11

20180517_062645.jpg 20180517_062734.jpg 20180517_062722.jpg 20180517_062826.jpg 20180517_062658.jpg 20180517_062741.jpg 20180517_062814.jpg
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1878mh
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Joined: May 16th, 2018, 5:39 pm

May 17th, 2018, 10:39 am #12

Guess its good I sprung for the Certificate of Authenticity? Hope I didnt get hosed.. :(
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CQMS
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CQMS
Colour Sergeant
Joined: September 9th, 2017, 8:49 pm

May 17th, 2018, 11:15 am #13

The replacement wood set I received from IMA was very dark, similar shape, unstamped and had no perceptible grain.

CQMS
Being first isn't everything. Remember, its the second mouse that gets the cheese!
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1878mh
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Joined: May 16th, 2018, 5:39 pm

May 17th, 2018, 12:01 pm #14

20180517_062759_resized.jpg
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The Double D
Veteran of the Regiment
The Double D
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Joined: March 11th, 2003, 5:45 am

May 17th, 2018, 12:07 pm #15

The front half of the  gun appears to  be original.  The  butt-stock appears to be a replacement..  The stock stampings are not correct. No Original  Martini Henry was marked like that.  None of the Guns I have looked at in my several visits to the  warehouse over 4 or 5 years  were marked as so.  These markings have not  been reported until the last few months. 

I am aware that  IMA had a lot of  MK II's in otherwise excellent condition except for split  butt-stocks. I helped them  arrange for  replacement butt-stocks from  Boyd's.  I understand they have acquired additional butt stocks from elsewhere to repair these guns.  I think that would be reasonable on their part.  Perhaps they applied those marks to identify these stocks as replacement. Hope they said as much.   They should.

I would like to see this certificate of authenticity.  Does it say repaired, refurbishish or rebuilt, or words to that effect.  I am sure the letter explains these markings and stock.  Can you post a copy of the letter.
Douglas

"And don't forget.  That isn't your Martini you have.  It  belonged to others before you and will belong to others after you are gone.  Look after it, and pass it on with pride. It deserves it."  Malcolm Cobb,  The Martini Henry Note-book
*********
To find things Martini go to: WWW.MartiniHenry.com
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1878mh
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Joined: May 16th, 2018, 5:39 pm

May 17th, 2018, 12:30 pm #16

Ill take one when i get home. The COA essentially mirrors the ad online, "1870s Martini Henry, cleaned and complete," and a signature. There is no mention of the stock being replaced or anything.
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1878mh
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Joined: May 16th, 2018, 5:39 pm

May 17th, 2018, 1:11 pm #17

TBH the only thing I was a little underwhelmed with was the COA.  I could have printed it up myself with an old color laser printer.  They put the order number on it as well but IDK why, in 20 years no one will know what my order number was or that this gun came from it.
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1878mh
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Joined: May 16th, 2018, 5:39 pm

May 17th, 2018, 1:13 pm #18

That said, is it possible the gun was unissued?  It does not appear to have any of the metal marks for a re-arsenaled or condemned gun, or even a factory upgraded one -- the strengthened extractor mod from 1885 comes to mind.  Just curious as dad loves history also and it will eventually come up in conversation.
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Johnny Yuma
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Johnny Yuma
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Joined: November 16th, 2009, 1:07 am

May 17th, 2018, 1:27 pm #19

Douglas is the best person to answer this, but my opinion is that the metal, while in very good condition does have the type of surface variations that would reasonably be expected after long storage. Issued vs. Unissued under these conditions becomes almost academic. Again, my opinion is that the buttstock appears to be virtually new, which is not consistent with the surface of the rest of the gun.
best, Johnny
"The Ideal situation, is that a man acquire a British flintlock musket or pistol every day. Any more and he will be perceived as greedy. Any less and his dedication will be suspect."
Johnny Yuma
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1878mh
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Joined: May 16th, 2018, 5:39 pm

May 17th, 2018, 1:38 pm #20

Gotcha!  I appreciate all the help!  This is all very interesting but quite new to me and I just want to be able to explain to dad what I got him.  Thank you so much!
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