Did Erdal Kızılçay get a raw deal?

Joined: October 15th, 2003, 8:16 am

July 26th, 2018, 1:00 am #1

Going by the latest interview (see Paul's post) he seems hellbent on suing over his name not been mentioned. I do sympathise with him but was he paid fairly and squarly? Was he hired purely as a session musician to do his part?
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Joined: April 20th, 2012, 9:49 am

July 26th, 2018, 9:50 am #2

Of NLMD, Kizilcay says 'about 80% of that album is me' - so I'd say it's us who got the raw deal! Oho...
Mind you, at least he provided that classic yarn about how he mistakenly thought Bowie had gestured for him to come forward during one of the S+V gigs,
so he went up front and jigged about next to Bowie - only to get an almighty bollocking on the plane afterwards,
with Bowie ripping his shirt off, throwing it at him and going:
'Take it, Erdal, take it and sing in my place! And if I wanted a dancer, I'd hire one who could dance a damn sight better than you!'
LMAO (or whatever the kids said 12 years ago).
And Erdal co-wrote Too Dizzy, so it's hard to sympathise...
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Joined: July 22nd, 2018, 8:13 am

July 26th, 2018, 12:48 pm #3

Larranaga wrote: Of NLMD, Kizilcay says 'about 80% of that album is me' - so I'd say it's us who got the raw deal

And Erdal co-wrote Too Dizzy, so it's hard to sympathise...
Rather than suing anybody, if I was Erdal I’d concentrate more on keeping my association with NLMD pretty quiet 🤫
SHHWEEET! IS....A self confessed, radicalised David Bowie knob ha! ha! I’m in good company. Let’s all celebrate together. 👍
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Joined: July 11th, 2004, 4:56 pm

July 26th, 2018, 3:47 pm #4

I typed in Never Let Me Down into Google this morning. In the top results were customer ratings averaging 4 stars for both Amazon and discogs.
So go figure... I've never disliked Never Let Me Down (or Tonight for that matter), but I understand the slaggings they get.
I also feel the new version of NLMD will be an improvement though.
We need -
Cracked Actor on DVD!
Arts Lab recordings!
The FULL 1970 Paris Cinema Studios show - forget the mistakes, enjoy the vibe!
1971 Paris Cinema Studios in STEREO - it was on a BBC radio LP.
Glasto 71 too!
Release the archives, set them free...
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Joined: February 19th, 2010, 8:17 pm

July 26th, 2018, 4:23 pm #5

i'm curious to hear 87 and cry, my favorite song in 1987
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Joined: March 6th, 2018, 11:47 pm

July 26th, 2018, 5:19 pm #6

Larranaga wrote: Of NLMD, Kizilcay says 'about 80% of that album is me' - so I'd say it's us who got the raw deal! Oho...
Mind you, at least he provided that classic yarn about how he mistakenly thought Bowie had gestured for him to come forward during one of the S+V gigs,
so he went up front and jigged about next to Bowie - only to get an almighty bollocking on the plane afterwards,
with Bowie ripping his shirt off, throwing it at him and going:
'Take it, Erdal, take it and sing in my place! And if I wanted a dancer, I'd hire one who could dance a damn sight better than you!'
LMAO (or whatever the kids said 12 years ago).
And Erdal co-wrote Too Dizzy, so it's hard to sympathise...
...wasn't there also a story that on the S+V Tour, Erdal used to listen to music while performing / activating video cues? 

Which to me, sounds insane - and incredibly rude (if true). 

Like, the band would be playing 'Life on Mars?' - and Erdal would be activating the video loops, following the cues - but not actively be engaged with what was going onstage. 

Honestly - I think Erdal might be very talented, but he doesn't seem to be a guy I'd like to meet... know what I mean? 

Although I don't fault him for the 'sour grapes' feeling, b/c... he's saying "I did 80% of that album" but then... it's not exactly a 'well liked' album in the cannon. 

Let's also not forget this interview from 2013: 
http://www.superdeluxeedition.com/inter ... t-me-down/
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Joined: November 24th, 2015, 7:31 pm

July 27th, 2018, 6:53 pm #7

Mmm, if things were so bad in the 80's why did either of them engage with the other during the 90's??
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Joined: October 15th, 2003, 8:16 am

July 27th, 2018, 7:47 pm #8

TalkingTall wrote: Mmm, if things were so bad in the 80's why did either of them engage with the other during the 90's??
I was thinking that too.
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Joined: July 11th, 2004, 4:56 pm

July 28th, 2018, 9:51 am #9

To be fair it sounds like David never directly blamed Erdal for Never Let Me Down not coming out the way he wanted on reflection.
Erdal took it that way as clearly he felt he'd done most of the work on NLMD.

But did he do the backing vocals, the lead guitars, the mixing? I'm not so much belittling his feeling he did most of the work (which could be true, I wasn't there!😀), as feeling that lots of people and factors contributed into making what seemed to them like a good pop rock album at the time, given the sounds of the times.
It wasn't bad imo, but as I've said I await the remake with interest.
Erdal seems to be saying that things Bowie said in 1995 may have been the final straw. But then he worked on Earthling...we don't always work with or for people we agree with on everything though.
We need -
Cracked Actor on DVD!
Arts Lab recordings!
The FULL 1970 Paris Cinema Studios show - forget the mistakes, enjoy the vibe!
1971 Paris Cinema Studios in STEREO - it was on a BBC radio LP.
Glasto 71 too!
Release the archives, set them free...
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Joined: October 31st, 2017, 11:06 am

July 28th, 2018, 1:47 pm #10

There is nothing to make one believe that Bowie was anything but happy with it initially.  I remember his excitement in connection with the tour also.  It was only when the media started rubbishing it, followed by many disillusioned fans, that he made efforts to excuse himself.
I would like to believe that he directly blamed nobody other than himself, but surely it is clear to see, that Erdal would feel it an insult.  If you were to put a lot of work, into any sort of project of which you have aptitude, and the project manager said "I love it this, it is great, give me more".   Then later, to say that it was his worst work when the critics start to slam it, wouldn't you feel a bit pissed?
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Joined: October 31st, 2017, 11:06 am

August 8th, 2018, 8:08 am #11



This is a great little interview from '87 and with much talk and speculation about the NLMD re-dee-do-da, it is a nice one to revisit.  If the 21 min running time is a bit daunting, take it up at 4.52?  I do feel that Erdal has been "dissed" unjustly by a few here and that is why I have posted this link here and not elsewhere.   
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Joined: July 22nd, 2018, 8:13 am

August 8th, 2018, 8:30 am #12

I don’t think we are dissing Erdal as such, just having a playful dig at the guy because of the way he allegedly has thrown the toys out of his pram and shouted out loud about it.

If he wants to take whoever to court then go about it on the Q/T if he is serious about any injustice towards himself.
SHHWEEET! IS....A self confessed, radicalised David Bowie knob ha! ha! I’m in good company. Let’s all celebrate together. 👍
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Joined: October 31st, 2017, 11:06 am

August 9th, 2018, 7:05 am #13

Unfortunately, being quiet about something, doesn't generate the publicity to warrant the point being made in a case like this.  I think Erdal's viewpoint is entirely valid, and far cry from throwing one's toy's from the pram.
Although not directly blamed for what is considered by many Bowie's poorest album, to have your 80% input removed to improve the album is a bit of insult without (and who would expect anyone to say such) complete exoneration being offered on his behalf.
Bowie both piloted and "crashed his plane and walked away from it", this re-recording, leaves Erdal (wrongly) among its charred ashes.     
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Joined: July 11th, 2004, 4:56 pm

August 9th, 2018, 7:32 am #14

bianniottonaim wrote: Unfortunately, being quiet about something, doesn't generate the publicity to warrant the point being made in a case like this.  I think Erdal's viewpoint is entirely valid, and far cry from throwing one's toy's from the pram.
Although not directly blamed for what is considered by many Bowie's poorest album, to have your 80% input removed to improve the album is a bit of insult without (and who would expect anyone to say such) complete exoneration being offered on his behalf.
Bowie both piloted and "crashed his plane and walked away from it", this re-recording, leaves Erdal (wrongly) among its charred ashes.     
Does it?

Did any of the pre-publicity say "It was all Erdal's fault"?

If songs are deemed to be needing re-doing it's entirely understandable that they need to be re-started from basics. Those basics here are Bowie's vocals, the raw structures of the song (although some restructuring is possible) and the tempo.

Why not wait for the box and the book - or at least authorative reports on the contents once it's released - before judging?
Last edited by Stranger-In-A-Strange-Land on August 9th, 2018, 2:43 pm, edited 2 times in total.
We need -
Cracked Actor on DVD!
Arts Lab recordings!
The FULL 1970 Paris Cinema Studios show - forget the mistakes, enjoy the vibe!
1971 Paris Cinema Studios in STEREO - it was on a BBC radio LP.
Glasto 71 too!
Release the archives, set them free...
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Joined: July 7th, 2018, 9:53 am

August 9th, 2018, 9:48 am #15

You jump to a lot of conclusions that you don't have evidence for bianniottonaim. Bowie may have genuinely liked the record when it was first completed and just grown to loathe it over time. Fuck, I've bought enough records over the years that I've initially enjoyed listening too and then ended up hating. I'm not blindly defending Bowie here - there's just no evidence that his change of attitude to the record was down to it being panned by the pundits. The 80's were full of 'good' musical ideas that dated very quickly and were seen as huge mistakes by the 90's.    
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Joined: July 24th, 2008, 8:22 pm

August 9th, 2018, 4:23 pm #16

Hated the S+V Tour. Was first time seeing db, and massively disappointed it was a small band, loads of keyboard cues, pre recorded vids, and the final insult he did Young Americans with no sax. Didn’t help it was at the late unlamented London Arena. He made up for it later at two of my all time fave shows of course, and as he said when later challenged on the “ never playing these songs again” thing, “I’m an artist, part of what I do is lie to you.” Only someone with his cojones could have done that. 
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Joined: October 31st, 2017, 11:06 am

August 9th, 2018, 4:36 pm #17

Erdal is upset, nothing speculative about that. The rest is common psychology.
I cannot believe, that so many find it so hard to look beyond their own nose.
Of course no one is blaming Erdal, but at the same time removing his contribution to save the bloody thing in
defense of Bowie's writing, is a shit of an insult.  This is especially pertinent in view of the fact, that by Bowie's own admission, this was perhaps his most structured. 
I am not claiming that the re-recording should not have taken place and neither am I saying that it is unwelcome,  Just that Erdal has every right to state his piece without being slagged off for it.

It is the between the lines stuff that makes all the difference. 
Just remember that Bowie has had no input in this, and yet just wait to see who gets the glory. 
  
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Joined: July 22nd, 2018, 8:13 am

August 9th, 2018, 5:04 pm #18

If the opinion is Erdal is 80% of NLMD it stands to reason then that if they are going to try and improve it a bloody big portion of Erdals work is going to be altered isn’t it.

Bowie probably will get a lot of credit. It’s still his original NLMD voice on it, still going to feature the instruments he played if appropriate in the new arrangements, although I did read they were going to keep all of Bowie’s  instrument parts regardless, and it’s still his flipping album and general vision at the end of the day.

You say your not claiming this new version shouldn’t have taken place or that it’s unwelcome, yet your making a very good case for exactly that. I said in an earlier post that I do have some sympathy for those who don’t want Bowie’s albums touched posthumously, and that I do have some reservations about this new version. Having said that I’m prepared to keep an open mind and give it a fair listen because it is what it is, it’s now in existence, and that meant altering a lot of Erdals original contributions.
SHHWEEET! IS....A self confessed, radicalised David Bowie knob ha! ha! I’m in good company. Let’s all celebrate together. 👍
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Joined: October 31st, 2017, 11:06 am

August 9th, 2018, 7:49 pm #19

As long as we all keep talking.  Great to experience life here again, it has been all a bit quite here of recent.
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Joined: October 31st, 2017, 11:06 am

August 10th, 2018, 8:53 am #20

Stranger-In-A-Strange-Land wrote:
Does it?

Did any of the pre-publicity say "It was all Erdal's fault"?

If songs are deemed to be needing re-doing it's entirely understandable that they need to be re-started from basics. Those basics here are Bowie's vocals, the raw structures of the song (although some restructuring is possible) and the tempo.

Why not wait for the box and the book - or at least authorative reports on the contents once it's released - before judging?
I see that you edited your reply a few times, so I thought that I would respond directly.  
The "now" sounds of 80's production dated incredibly quickly, and although a few tunes managed to escape the decade without leaving a skid-mark
of some consequence, this cannot be said of most recordings of the period.  This is very true of NLMD.
I really have no problem with NLMD 2018 myself, I am in no doubt, that once relieved of its 1980's nastiness it will be improved hugely.
I also have no doubt, that the musicians that have taken part in the re-recording, will have done so sympathetically, without trying to overstate their
own contribution above that of the whole.

If you read back on some of the preceding comments, I feel a few slated Mr E K with regard to his perfectly entitled viewpoint.  I personally think they
are miscalculated and hasty, and while I know nothing of Erdal the man, what is in his heart etc...? I personally feel that in line with the threads title
that he has or is experiencing a bit of a RAW DEAL.

About the recording however, the "box and book" what more authorative opinion is more valid than our own.  It is unique and as valid as that of anyone
else.........

except when it conflicts with mine.  ;)
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Joined: April 20th, 2012, 9:49 am

August 10th, 2018, 10:21 am #21

Given the public bollocking and the deletion of Too Dizzy, etc, I really do think Erdal should've taken the hint long ago. 
The butthurt's not going to wear off if he keeps aggravating it...
  
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Joined: July 27th, 2007, 10:10 pm

August 10th, 2018, 8:33 pm #22

 A post by Erdal on his FB page on August 1, 2018:

Swear to God telling the truth, nothing but the truth.

At the end of 1982, I got called from Mountain Studio, as a bass player, for a 2 days work and about 6 or 8 demos. I already had a little name in Switzerland as a bass player. So that person who called me, was haggling the price. I said my day block out cost that much, otherwise I would not come. The person was saying that it was for a very well known star.
So I said that if he was a well known star, then he should pay my price. So he did accept it. When I asked who was that well known star, the answer was: David Bowie. I remember saying: “Oh sure.” So I went to the Mountain Studio in Montreux. which took me about 45 mins from Neuchatel. And by that time, David was living in Lausanne.
In Montreux there was David Richards a great engineer and producer of the “Queen”. So I was there, obviously very excited. And I had even brought my fretless bass with me. The moment when David came up in the studio, I was opening my fretless, and I remember saying to him, instead of “Hi David”
“I’ve brought my breathless face today”. He didn’t know what to say and I had to correct “fretless bass, David”. He looked more relaxed after that. There were also Nile Rodgers and two other musicians called Andre, a guitar player, and Cosimo for Percussion and Drums. As during the day, we were playing the Demo sessions, me and they could see it that, the two other musicians weren’t complying what they wanted from them.
I remember that, they weren’t there the next day. And in the meantime, David Richards was saying; Erdal can really play everything, he’s well known as a multi- instrumentalist etc. So the next day Neil was on guitar, and me on bass and everything. That moment, David has remarked me. He was living in Lausanne, and me in Neuchatel where I had a small recording studio. Anyway, we’ve recorded about 6 songs, 4 of them was for the film “Labyrinth” the other 2 were Let’s Dance
and I guess China Girl. I might be wrong, but Let’s Dance for sure. I remember playing let’s the dance bass line so technically and fast. It was my moment of Jaco Pastorius” Nile came up to me and said; Hey man, what you are playing is great, but don’t play that shit. It is not your SOLO album, it is David’s. He was really laughing, and me too. So we’ve set down and got the famous line of “Let’s Dance” Bass line. David Bowie, Nile Rodgers and David Richards were really happy with my performances. I even remember Nile saying to me; David likes you very much, maybe he should propose the next World Tour to you. I was so happy and saying; Wow, man, maybe this is the chance. But obviously nothing happened, and I heard that David was on World Tour without me. I remember saying, yes sure man, it is always like this. So I forgot about that, was continuing my productions and playing in the other studios as a bass player.
Nearly a year after I’ve got a telephone call from somebody speaking English and saying; Hi, may I talk to Erdal please. I said “who is this, man?”, because in Switzerland we are first saying who we are, it is a sign of respect. So the guy on the line was saying he was David Bowie. I remember saying, yeah sure, and I am Jesus Christ. But he was laughing on the other side, and said Hi Erdal it’s really me David. Well he was inviting me to his house in Lausanne for dinner. He wanted to talk to me.
That evening, there were also “Iggy Pop” (Jimmy Ochsenberger) and Iggy’s wife Sushi and Coco (his everything). We had a great dinner, and afterwise he came straight to the point: He wanted me to do an album for Iggy, as he knew I play nearly everything he wanted me to do this album with him. Yes my God, that was the moment that I was waiting for. Sure, I said; Thank you for believing in me, David. I’ll try to do my best. And I did my best.This is how IGGY’s album” Blah Blah Blah” was made. Can you imagine, I was playing every instruments except Kevin Armstrong’s few guitar solo’s and some leaks. They haven’t written it in the album, but I did the whole musical arrangements, I even played real violas and strings Arr. etc. … and got paid only 7.000 $ for all this work.
Later I accidentally heard from someone who knows this business that (sure I can’t prove it) David got 500.000 $ (half a Million $) for this album. I took this bitter pill as the price to pay for starting my with David. But I remember saying that he could pay at least the Vaseline for that. This album was great and was a break out for IGGY, so David has decided to make his own album, which after was called “Never let Me Down”
Just before the “NLMD” album, he was coming to my studio in Neuchatel on Tuesdays and Thursdays. There we have co-written “When The Wind Blows” ( which was a classical comp from me for a documentary film). He had heard that and asked me to make a copy for him.
The day after he called me and asked: “Can you arrange the song starting very Rock, lots of guitars and ending with a big classical orchestra and explosive?”
Sure, that’s what I did obviously. I remember playing 32 tracks of this song in the Mountain Studio.
So there was “WTWB”, in the same time I have also co-written with David and the song called GIRLS which was also in the”NLMD” album later. BTW, Tina Turner also loved and sang the song, it is in her ”Break Every Rule” album. During his visits we have also co-written the song ”Too Dizzy”. He was so happy about this song, that he even presented it to Ronnie Spector. And he said to me, she is very interested, “hey you’re gonna make some money, man”.
Sure, I did what I did, but money wasn’t on my side. Then we have started for the Album”NLMD” once again I was his” Invincible Turk” and I did about 80 % of this album. I arranged, played various instruments, made the backing vocals, well, hey it was there and the big boss was very happy. It became something like IGGY’s “Blah Blah”, I really like it. David was talking about me in the press in the media everywhere as a “one man band” and said proudly I could play this and that. He was so happy, that’s why he invited me to our first world tour called” The Glass Spider”.
Obviously there was great Musicians like; Alan Childs on Drums, Carmine Rojas on Bass, Keyboard player Richard Cottle, two of the world known Guitarists Carlos Alomar and Peter Frampton. But he needed it me for this tour, because I had to do things nobody could do: playing everything. It was me who started the Glass Spider intro, with like 4 different synths and samplers. It was me who was playing the trumpet on “Time Will Crawl”, it was me who was playing viola on Bang bang, and it was me who played the whole intro of “Time” and many other solos like percussion and I don’t know what else.
Right after when the world tour was over, he called me for the “Buddha of Suburbia” it was me again who was playing, singing and arranging the whole album. It was a great success. When we had to do a new version of “Look back in Anger”, I remember playing in London ICA for nothing because according to him it was a charity concert. I don’t want to know how much he was paid, that’s his problem. He called me again one day ( I started to notice that he was always calling me, when he needed me)..
He was asking me for the “Sound and Vision Tour”. He was saying that Adrian Blew didn’t have a Bass player and he asked me to be his bass player on this world tour. Sure, I said “Yes, David”. In the same time I was wondering why he didn’t call Carmine as a Bass player. The world tour was really great, but there were some bad critics, more because of the stage design, because the band was just left squeezed on the side of the stage. Nobody could see the band, there was just Adrian in front with David, the rest of us were like unknown band members in the dark.
In the South American part of the Tour, they have decreased the personal and tech guys of the tour. We were using the local facilities in every show, and I have noticed that the Big Boss wasn’t happy with the tour at all. For the last shows, he didn’t even showed up for the sound checks.
After this tour, while I started to forget about David Bowie, he called me again in Paris. He asked me for a new album in the Montreux Mountain Studio. I was very occupied with my artist “Jacques Dutronc” because I had just finished the final mixes of the album and I was touring with him. But after La Rochelle we had a break of about a month, so I said “yes David, I’m coming”.
We had this big success and in my opinion the best album of all time called: OUT SIDE. Every musician did his best while we jammed all the time. David didn’t sing anything, he was just painting in the studio. But after David and David Richards edited, cut and took the best parts for the melody and the lyrics. So there were a lot of new songs because they have created so many songs from our jams. That’s why I have already 22 co-written songs with David.
Today we’re talking about new remixes and a new version of NLMD etc. First of all, I find the work they have done on “Time Will Crawl” is horrible. It is not what I was expecting. No taste and knowhow, at least for me. BTW, they are using some of my instruments and some of my arrangements that I have performed without asking my permission or at least informing me. This is disrespectful. And the funniest thing; David never put my name as an Arranger on the albums. Because, he would had to pay also Arrangers fee, which is about 10 or 12%. For sure somebody had to arrange all those songs in the albums, I really wonder who that was ???
I did 6 albums, two World Tours and had about 22 co-written songs with David Bowie. Sure I am the luckiest guy on the Earth. But …….
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Joined: July 11th, 2004, 4:56 pm

August 10th, 2018, 11:10 pm #23

Like The Byrds sung, Everybody's been Burned.

Bowie was too.

I get paid well for my job, but do I feel well treated by my employer? No, because I am not a lot of the time.

But that's life.

Erdal is the luckiest guy in the world, but..,. We can all find a 'but' somewhere.

We all have to take pride in what we have done well, particularly if others have enjoyed it. We won't always get our 'due', but it's healthier to focus on the first part of this equation.
We need -
Cracked Actor on DVD!
Arts Lab recordings!
The FULL 1970 Paris Cinema Studios show - forget the mistakes, enjoy the vibe!
1971 Paris Cinema Studios in STEREO - it was on a BBC radio LP.
Glasto 71 too!
Release the archives, set them free...
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Joined: July 24th, 2008, 8:22 pm

August 11th, 2018, 7:07 am #24

Whether or not you agree or even believe all of his account, it makes very interesting reading in terms of chronology. I didn’t realise he had any input to Outside, for example.
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Joined: April 20th, 2014, 4:04 pm

August 11th, 2018, 10:55 am #25

Well , that was amazing, the facebook post from Erdal . If you feel youve been hard done by how about the spiders, and all the other players who played with Bowie, Herbie involved in a chair fight over union fees etc, isnt it the name of the game.
  I know an ex pop star from the 60s and that unfortunately what rock n roll is all about, being ripped off !
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Joined: July 22nd, 2018, 8:13 am

August 11th, 2018, 12:50 pm #26

Re Erdals FB page.

Am I the only one thinking that despite despite Erdals self congratulating, aren’t I fucking brilliant, and woe is me! I’ve not been given my full credit or proper payment Face Book drivel, that he did in fact get a bloody good deal.

Erdal wrote ....

I did 6 albums, two World Tours and had about 22 co-written songs with David Bowie. Sure I am the luckiest guy on the Earth. But.....

Well yes quite so Erdal. That kind of Kudos and exposure is priceless you couldn’t buy it. Come into the real world you sap! Who told you life was supposed to be entirely 100% fair?
SHHWEEET! IS....A self confessed, radicalised David Bowie knob ha! ha! I’m in good company. Let’s all celebrate together. 👍
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Joined: February 2nd, 2014, 6:17 pm

August 11th, 2018, 1:17 pm #27

At the end of the day he (or his manager) will have negotiated and agreed fees for all his work over the years, and he will have signed whatever contracts were involved around that and rights, credits, royalties and so forth, so he will have had the payments and everything that he agreed to and signed up for.
He seems to be alone in complaining like this out of the dozens (if not more) of people who collaborated with Bowie. There are plenty of others who could have the same attitude towards their treatment. Even out of the other musicians on NLMD, there doesn’t seem to have been anyone else complaining that their parts are being replaced on the new version.
It’s life-most of us work for someone who gets all the credit for the work their team does (when it’s good) and gets paid considerably more than we do (not always deserved!), and who will blame others when it’s bad.
The level of exposure Erdal will have had from working with Bowie should have been a springboard to a successful and busy session and live career, but that doesn’t seem to have really been the case, and it seems like that’s all on him and his attitude rather than his ability. Shame, but I do find it hard to feel sorry for him and his treatment.
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Joined: April 20th, 2012, 9:49 am

August 13th, 2018, 9:53 am #28

Erdal got $7000 for his work on Blah Blah Blah?
Yeah, well, Ronson got 35 quid a week for his work on Hunky Dory.
How'd you like to swap, Erdal?
Seven grand for Real Wild Child -v- 35 quid for Life On Mars?
Hmmm.
Erdal's not exactly doing himself many favours with all this...
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Joined: July 22nd, 2018, 8:13 am

August 13th, 2018, 11:09 am #29

Larranaga wrote: Erdal got $7000 for his work on Blah Blah Blah?
Yeah, well, Ronson got 35 quid a week for his work on Hunky Dory.
How'd you like to swap, Erdal?
Seven grand for Real Wild Child -v- 35 quid for Life On Mars?
Hmmm.
Erdal's not exactly doing himself many favours with all this...
And of course Bowie himself was well and truly ripped off in the early 70s with the whole Main Man thing by Defries, but in return Defries got him exposure and fame albeit via dubious means. He still made Bowie a star though.

Erdal might think he is hard done by, but as I said earlier you can’t put a price on the kudos and exposure he got working with Bowie.

Bowie got fame, Erdal got an invaluable career lift, where is Erdals real problem? If he hasn’t made the most of that leg up then that’s Erdals own fault.

As you say, Erdal really isn’t doing himself any favours with this at all.
SHHWEEET! IS....A self confessed, radicalised David Bowie knob ha! ha! I’m in good company. Let’s all celebrate together. 👍
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Joined: April 20th, 2012, 9:49 am

August 13th, 2018, 12:10 pm #30

SHHWEEET! wrote:Erdal might think he is hard done by, but as I said earlier you can’t put a price on the kudos and exposure he got working with Bowie.
Bowie got fame, Erdal got an invaluable career lift, where is Erdals real problem? If he hasn’t made the most of that leg up then that’s Erdals own fault.
Exactly. Others have made a far more substantial and lasting contribution to Bowie's music and legend than Erdal,
they got a lot less for it and did a lot less whining about it.
Erdal clearly does think he's hard done by, yet he admits himself that Bowie gave him co-writing credit on 22 songs -
Earl Slick, who insists he wrote the riffs for Right, Golden Years and Stay, must be wondering what the hell Erdal's got to grizzle about...
I don't think Erdal realises how generous Bowie actually was with him.
Then again, looking at most of those 22 songs that Erdal co-wrote, maybe Bowie gave him the credit cos he wanted a fall guy to deflect part of the blame onto... 😉   
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Joined: July 22nd, 2018, 8:13 am

August 13th, 2018, 2:32 pm #31

Larranaga wrote: Then again, looking at most of those 22 songs that Erdal co-wrote, maybe Bowie gave him the credit cos he wanted a fall guy to deflect part of the blame onto... 😉   
Oh dear! I fear I can hear the distant thunder of galloping hooves.

It must be bianniottonaim and co riding to Erdals rescue again on their white chargers. 😉
SHHWEEET! IS....A self confessed, radicalised David Bowie knob ha! ha! I’m in good company. Let’s all celebrate together. 👍
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Joined: October 31st, 2017, 11:06 am

August 13th, 2018, 4:40 pm #32

On their white chargers with white flags!  

A lot of musicians owe a lot to working with Bowie, certainly among Bowie fans.  To be honest, I fear that any credibility will be lessened by their saying anything against Bowie.  The same is true albeit on a broader scale, of the Beatles.

The facebook quote though, as you say SWHHEEET! comes across as a bit, well... ( hands up, hell your right) all about me, does make interesting reading.  It is a shame it ends at...     ,but....

But ain't a "no win" situation a bloody inviting one, when you feel you have a cause?
Right or wrong "he WILL loose".  You have to admire that
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Joined: April 8th, 2005, 1:53 pm

August 13th, 2018, 5:07 pm #33

What are the 22 songs Erdal co wrote with Bowie and did he get credit for all of them ?
I know Erdal was only at the Montreux sessions for 1. outside and a lot of the songs that were on Outside were recorded at the New York sessions  with Yossi Fine on bass and  Joey Baron on drums. Was 1.outside the point were Erdal seemed to fall out with Bowie, I know in a some brief quotes from Erdal Erdal  in in that Dylan Jones book he said some pretty scathing remarks bout Bowie and Eno and also dissed the  demo's Bowie and Eno had recorded before the sessions. 
20171209_115650.jpg
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Joined: April 8th, 2005, 1:53 pm

August 13th, 2018, 5:16 pm #34

Here is the rest of the Carlos bit
20171209_115726.jpg
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Joined: May 1st, 2017, 10:28 am

August 13th, 2018, 8:03 pm #35

Sheesh - I loved 1.Outside, yes there was a lot of jamming but the actual album that was cobbled together itself was stunning - and this is coming from a HUGE fan of the 1969-1979 period of Bowie.
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Joined: April 8th, 2005, 1:53 pm

August 13th, 2018, 8:13 pm #36

Markmywurdz wrote: Sheesh - I loved 1.Outside, yes there was a lot of jamming but the actual album that was cobbled together itself was stunning - and this is coming from a HUGE fan of the 1969-1979 period of Bowie.
Pretty sure most of the jam sessions formed what was to become the unreleased Leon, what became 1.outside was less cobbled together as a lot of tracks ie ones not credited too Bowie, Eno, Gabrels, Garson, Kızılçay, Campbell were written and recorded at those New York sessions.
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Joined: April 20th, 2012, 9:49 am

August 14th, 2018, 9:42 am #37

I believe Erdal when he spouts all this stuff about how much he co-wrote, played and arranged - but he doesn't seem to grasp that a lot of those songs are among the worst that Bowie ever released.
Erdal says that he's 80% responsible for NLMD - an album that Bowie himself said 'was such an awful album.'
Erdal clearly hasn't worked out that claiming 80% responsibility for one of Bowie's most least-loved albums isn't going to win him much sympathy  - or that his association with that album could well have contributed to the way his post-Bowie career went.
After all, who's going to go 'y'know, I really want that Too Dizzy feel on this one - quick, get me Erdal!'?
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Joined: July 22nd, 2018, 8:13 am

August 14th, 2018, 10:16 am #38

Larranaga wrote: I believe Erdal when he spouts all this stuff about how much he co-wrote, played and arranged - but he doesn't seem to grasp that a lot of those songs are among the worst that Bowie ever released.
Erdal says that he's 80% responsible for NLMD - an album that Bowie himself said 'was such an awful album.'
Erdal clearly hasn't worked out that claiming 80% responsibility for one of Bowie's most least-loved albums isn't going to win him much sympathy  - or that his association with that album could well have contributed to the way his post-Bowie career went.
After all, who's going to go 'y'know, I really want that Too Dizzy feel on this one - quick, get me Erdal!'?
Which is a shame because I’ve no doubt Erdal is a very good multitalented musician.
SHHWEEET! IS....A self confessed, radicalised David Bowie knob ha! ha! I’m in good company. Let’s all celebrate together. 👍
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Joined: October 31st, 2017, 11:06 am

August 14th, 2018, 4:20 pm #39

Larranaga wrote:
Erdal says that he's 80% responsible for NLMD -  He did not claim 80% responsibility, he said that 80% was him.

People really need to put their Bowie goggles bloody minded stubborness aside for a few minutes and recognize, that Bowie fairly and squarely made an album that many think is shite.  Face the facts, Bowie only said that it was a poor album, after the critics gave it a hammering.
It the video that I posted above, Bowie says that he took more than usual control, when he says how structured it was.  He said "This is what I want only better" & that the results were very close to his demos. 
I don't want an argument over this, unless you are going to be completely serious and open-minded, but a less bias finger would be directed toward Bowie himself.  It could be said, that the more Bowie exercised control the worse the album.  I think an unbiased court would find it so.
  
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Joined: April 20th, 2012, 9:49 am

August 14th, 2018, 5:15 pm #40

bianniottonaim wrote:
Larranaga wrote:It could be said, that the more Bowie exercised control the worse the album.  I think an unbiased court would find it so.
Not if they had a listen to Diamond Dogs, they wouldn't....
 
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Joined: April 8th, 2005, 1:53 pm

August 14th, 2018, 5:26 pm #41

To be honest  I feel Never let me down if anything was a victim of it's era the 80's, an era  that was coming rapidly to an end, strangely Iggy's Blah blah blah fared better possibly because the songs were stronger. I am sure the musicians and the producer were not to blame, Erdal and Dave Richards certainly fully redeemed themselves with Buddha and outside as did Bowie. Lets face it 1987 solo album wise was a bad time for Bowie he was just running out of steam and of idea's and probably lacked inspiration. perhaps it was EMI and pressure from the record company executives
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Joined: July 24th, 2008, 8:22 pm

August 14th, 2018, 5:30 pm #42

Any Miles Davis fans in? ;)
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Joined: March 6th, 2018, 11:47 pm

August 14th, 2018, 6:52 pm #43

geez - Erdal's timeline is all over the place.

It really reminds me of the "Revisionist History" episodes "A Polite Word for Liar" and "Free Brian Williams" 
(it's a podcast hosted by Malcolm Gladwell)

But I mean come on in 1982... Bowie, Niles, and Erdal were recording "6 songs, 4 of them was for the film “Labyrinth” the other 2 were Let’s Dance and I guess China Girl"

...Four full years before "Labyrinth" was released, and three years BEFORE Jim Henson even wrote Bowie the letter asking him to participate in the film? Bowie must have been a legit clairvoyant. 
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Joined: October 31st, 2017, 11:06 am

August 14th, 2018, 8:48 pm #44

Larranaga wrote:
bianniottonaim wrote:
Larranaga wrote:It could be said, that the more Bowie exercised control the worse the album.  I think an unbiased court would find it so.
Larranaga said    " Not if they had a listen to Diamond Dogs, they wouldn't...."
 
BIANNIOTTONAIM,  in a hasty effort to edit a bit more sense into the bollocks he originally posted, said
 
"Indeed so Mr. Larranaga".
"Has the prosecution anything to add"? 
"Not at this time mi Lud".
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Joined: October 31st, 2017, 11:06 am

August 14th, 2018, 9:11 pm #45

For some strange reason the edit facility will not let me correct the above post which is misquoting Larranaga.
Hopefully you can make sense of the error.  

The written word? "My God! who can trust it"?
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Joined: August 27th, 2012, 4:16 pm

August 14th, 2018, 9:24 pm #46

nickfa wrote: Iggy's Blah blah blah fared better possibly because the songs were stronger.
If only some of those Bowie co-writes for Blah Blah Blah had appeared on NLMD instead - or indeed Tonight. Either of those albums would have been vastly improved by the addition of Shades, Isolation and Hideaway in particular. And of course then there would have been Bowie vocal tracks for those songs so that the awful 80s production could have been replaced with re-recorded instrumentation...
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Joined: August 27th, 2012, 4:16 pm

August 14th, 2018, 9:33 pm #47

EchoBowie wrote:  A post by Erdal on his FB page on August 1, 2018:


That evening, there were also “Iggy Pop” (Jimmy Ochsenberger)
Is that 'Jimmy Jimmy Ochsenberger Katzenellen Bogen by the Sea'...?
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Joined: October 7th, 2004, 2:51 pm

August 14th, 2018, 10:55 pm #48

The Isolation 12" is masterful. I'd have gone for a Bowie version.
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Joined: April 20th, 2012, 9:49 am

August 15th, 2018, 9:27 am #49

Isolation is a wonderful song, with some glorious Bowie backing vocals.
The fact that Bowie gave that away to Iggy but kept the NLMD stuff for himself really does say something about his judgement at the time. 
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Joined: April 8th, 2005, 1:53 pm

August 15th, 2018, 9:42 am #50

Larranaga wrote: Isolation is a wonderful song, with some glorious Bowie backing vocals.
The fact that Bowie gave that away to Iggy but kept the NLMD stuff for himself really does say something about his judgement at the time. 
But he did co write them with Iggy so not totaly given away,and some tracks Iggy co wrote with Steve Jones,some of the demo's that surfaced from blah blah blah sounded pretty good Fire girl demo springs to mind,with Bowies vocals more upfront.
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