There'll Come A Time/San Antonio Shout: Same tune and more. A fascinating conflict.

There'll Come A Time/San Antonio Shout: Same tune and more. A fascinating conflict.

Joined: January 1st, 1970, 12:00 am

August 27th, 2015, 8:14 pm #1

Vince Giordano kindly sends the following:

*********************************************************************
Here is the There'll Come A Time/San Antonio Shout conflict.

The sheet music for "There'll Come A Time" follows here.

https://www.dropbox.com/s/3kbvy7fsxvku6 ... IME001.jpg
https://www.dropbox.com/s/1ah7sb8fhf5zn ... IME002.jpg
https://www.dropbox.com/s/hjf907nwaxwvo ... IME003.jpg

Both Okeh and Brunswick issued their records of "There'll Come A Time," giving composer credits to Wingy Mannone and Miff Mole and the publishing to Mills Music (in their recording files). For some reason OKeh did not credit the composers on their record label, but Brunswick did give credit to the composers.

https://www.dropbox.com/home?preview=TH ... E+TRUM.jpg

https://www.dropbox.com/s/erpx08nub16v4 ... D.JPG?dl=0

This is crazy because the sheet music does not match these two phonograph records, yet both companies paid the two composers and the publisher.

Here are the two recordings :

Bix and Trumbauer https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eoCTo8c4b8g

Red Nichols http://tinyurl.com/ovq8l8r

To add to all this confusion, there is a Decca recording of "San Antonio Shout" (Decca 161). This tune has the same melody and chords as the two previous recordings of "There'll Come A Time," but the composer credits are listed as Terry Shand and Sidney Arodin (by the way, the Wikipedia entry for Arodin states that his last name was sometimes spelled Arnandan or Arnondrin or Arnondin!!!).

The final weird part of this puzzle is that this Decca recording (issued as the New Orleans Rhythm
Kings) is led by Wingy Mannone!!

http://tinyurl.com/qzbn95l

Thank you for reading this. Looking forward to your thoughts. Please feel free to share this with any early jazz scholars.
**************************************************************

Thank you, Vince. Comments anyone?

Albert
Last edited by ahaim on August 27th, 2015, 8:59 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Joined: January 1st, 1970, 12:00 am

August 27th, 2015, 9:04 pm #2

Includes the composers' names, Mannone and Mole.

https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/786 ... eOdeon.jpg

Albert
Last edited by ahaim on August 27th, 2015, 9:20 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Joined: January 1st, 1970, 12:00 am

August 27th, 2015, 9:19 pm #3

The names of the composers (Arodin and Shand) given on the label. They were also members of the band that recorded the tune.

http://ids.si.edu/ids/deliveryService?i ... 2006q23486&

Albert
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Joined: January 1st, 1970, 12:00 am

August 28th, 2015, 12:40 am #4

Vince Giordano kindly sends the following:

*********************************************************************
Here is the There'll Come A Time/San Antonio Shout conflict.

The sheet music for "There'll Come A Time" follows here.

https://www.dropbox.com/s/3kbvy7fsxvku6 ... IME001.jpg
https://www.dropbox.com/s/1ah7sb8fhf5zn ... IME002.jpg
https://www.dropbox.com/s/hjf907nwaxwvo ... IME003.jpg

Both Okeh and Brunswick issued their records of "There'll Come A Time," giving composer credits to Wingy Mannone and Miff Mole and the publishing to Mills Music (in their recording files). For some reason OKeh did not credit the composers on their record label, but Brunswick did give credit to the composers.

https://www.dropbox.com/home?preview=TH ... E+TRUM.jpg

https://www.dropbox.com/s/erpx08nub16v4 ... D.JPG?dl=0

This is crazy because the sheet music does not match these two phonograph records, yet both companies paid the two composers and the publisher.

Here are the two recordings :

Bix and Trumbauer https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eoCTo8c4b8g

Red Nichols http://tinyurl.com/ovq8l8r

To add to all this confusion, there is a Decca recording of "San Antonio Shout" (Decca 161). This tune has the same melody and chords as the two previous recordings of "There'll Come A Time," but the composer credits are listed as Terry Shand and Sidney Arodin (by the way, the Wikipedia entry for Arodin states that his last name was sometimes spelled Arnandan or Arnondrin or Arnondin!!!).

The final weird part of this puzzle is that this Decca recording (issued as the New Orleans Rhythm
Kings) is led by Wingy Mannone!!

http://tinyurl.com/qzbn95l

Thank you for reading this. Looking forward to your thoughts. Please feel free to share this with any early jazz scholars.
**************************************************************

Thank you, Vince. Comments anyone?

Albert
.... Wingy Manone's autobiography published in 1948 with Paul Vandervoort. I don't have a copy of the book. I wonder if Wingy mentions "There'll Come A Time" and/or "San Antonio Shout."

If anyone has a copy of the book, I would be grateful if he/she could take a look and see if there is any mention of these tunes.

There is a Mosaic set titled "The Complete Brunswick and Vocalion Recordings of Louis Prima and Wingy Manone (1924-37). I wonder if "San Antonio Shout" is included in the set, and if so what information is available in the booklet.

Albert
Last edited by ahaim on August 28th, 2015, 1:01 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Joined: January 1st, 1970, 12:00 am

August 28th, 2015, 1:16 pm #5

.... "The Complete Brunswick and Vocalion Recordings of Louis Prima and Wingy Manone (1924-37)."

Available in
http://www.allmusic.com/album/complete- ... 0001063232

"San Antonio Shout" not included.

Albert
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Joined: January 1st, 1970, 12:00 am

August 28th, 2015, 2:04 pm #6

Vince Giordano kindly sends the following:

*********************************************************************
Here is the There'll Come A Time/San Antonio Shout conflict.

The sheet music for "There'll Come A Time" follows here.

https://www.dropbox.com/s/3kbvy7fsxvku6 ... IME001.jpg
https://www.dropbox.com/s/1ah7sb8fhf5zn ... IME002.jpg
https://www.dropbox.com/s/hjf907nwaxwvo ... IME003.jpg

Both Okeh and Brunswick issued their records of "There'll Come A Time," giving composer credits to Wingy Mannone and Miff Mole and the publishing to Mills Music (in their recording files). For some reason OKeh did not credit the composers on their record label, but Brunswick did give credit to the composers.

https://www.dropbox.com/home?preview=TH ... E+TRUM.jpg

https://www.dropbox.com/s/erpx08nub16v4 ... D.JPG?dl=0

This is crazy because the sheet music does not match these two phonograph records, yet both companies paid the two composers and the publisher.

Here are the two recordings :

Bix and Trumbauer https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eoCTo8c4b8g

Red Nichols http://tinyurl.com/ovq8l8r

To add to all this confusion, there is a Decca recording of "San Antonio Shout" (Decca 161). This tune has the same melody and chords as the two previous recordings of "There'll Come A Time," but the composer credits are listed as Terry Shand and Sidney Arodin (by the way, the Wikipedia entry for Arodin states that his last name was sometimes spelled Arnandan or Arnondrin or Arnondin!!!).

The final weird part of this puzzle is that this Decca recording (issued as the New Orleans Rhythm
Kings) is led by Wingy Mannone!!

http://tinyurl.com/qzbn95l

Thank you for reading this. Looking forward to your thoughts. Please feel free to share this with any early jazz scholars.
**************************************************************

Thank you, Vince. Comments anyone?

Albert
.... album


"San Antonio Shout" is credited to Sidney Arodin / Wingy Manone / Terry Shand.

Does anyone have this CD and if so, can he/she tell us what the liners say about "San Antonio Shout"?

Albert

The same matrix number is given for the Decca and Brunswick issues of "San Antonio Shout" by the NORK.
Frohttp://www.honkingduck.com/discography/ ... ythm_kings

Recordings by 'New Orleans Rhythm Kings'
San Antonio Shout - BRUNSWICK (American) - 80118 - 1934-09-12; Composer: Shand - Sidney Arodin; matrix: 38608; xref: DE161; ~3 min
San Antonio Shout - DECCA (American) - 161A - 1934-09-12; Composer: Terry Shand - Sidney Arodin; matrix: 38608; ~3 min
Last edited by ahaim on August 28th, 2015, 2:05 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Mark Gabrish Conlan
Mark Gabrish Conlan

August 28th, 2015, 5:56 pm #7

.... "The Complete Brunswick and Vocalion Recordings of Louis Prima and Wingy Manone (1924-37)."

Available in
http://www.allmusic.com/album/complete- ... 0001063232

"San Antonio Shout" not included.

Albert
The reason "San Antonio Shout" wouldn't have been included in the Mosaic box "The Complete Brunswick and Vocalion Recordings of Louis Prima and Wingy Manone" is that the box no doubt included only songs recorded for the U.S. incarnations of those labels. During World War II the connections between the British and American Decca labels were severed, and from then on U.S. Decca recordings were issued in the U.K. on Brunswick -- but that label had no connection with the former U.S. Brunswick label. So "San Antonio Shout," a Wingy Manone recording for U.S. Decca, wouldn't have counted as a Brunswick or Vocalion recording by the criteria and licensing arrangements used by Mosaic.
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Joined: January 1st, 1970, 12:00 am

August 28th, 2015, 11:59 pm #8

Vince Giordano kindly sends the following:

*********************************************************************
Here is the There'll Come A Time/San Antonio Shout conflict.

The sheet music for "There'll Come A Time" follows here.

https://www.dropbox.com/s/3kbvy7fsxvku6 ... IME001.jpg
https://www.dropbox.com/s/1ah7sb8fhf5zn ... IME002.jpg
https://www.dropbox.com/s/hjf907nwaxwvo ... IME003.jpg

Both Okeh and Brunswick issued their records of "There'll Come A Time," giving composer credits to Wingy Mannone and Miff Mole and the publishing to Mills Music (in their recording files). For some reason OKeh did not credit the composers on their record label, but Brunswick did give credit to the composers.

https://www.dropbox.com/home?preview=TH ... E+TRUM.jpg

https://www.dropbox.com/s/erpx08nub16v4 ... D.JPG?dl=0

This is crazy because the sheet music does not match these two phonograph records, yet both companies paid the two composers and the publisher.

Here are the two recordings :

Bix and Trumbauer https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eoCTo8c4b8g

Red Nichols http://tinyurl.com/ovq8l8r

To add to all this confusion, there is a Decca recording of "San Antonio Shout" (Decca 161). This tune has the same melody and chords as the two previous recordings of "There'll Come A Time," but the composer credits are listed as Terry Shand and Sidney Arodin (by the way, the Wikipedia entry for Arodin states that his last name was sometimes spelled Arnandan or Arnondrin or Arnondin!!!).

The final weird part of this puzzle is that this Decca recording (issued as the New Orleans Rhythm
Kings) is led by Wingy Mannone!!

http://tinyurl.com/qzbn95l

Thank you for reading this. Looking forward to your thoughts. Please feel free to share this with any early jazz scholars.
**************************************************************

Thank you, Vince. Comments anyone?

Albert
Is the tune in the sheet music one that you know? Has it been recorded and/or played? What you sent is, as I understand it, a version for vocal accompanied by piano.

One of the fascinating features in the sheet music you sent is that the lyrics include the phrase "Wait and See There'll Come a Time," the reverse of the title on the record label of the Bix and Tram record, "There'll Come A Time (Wait and See)."

I can't figure out what is going on with the sheet music that uses the title and gives Mole and Manone as composers, but is for a different song. Weird as you point out.

Incidentally, another fascinating tidbit: before "There'll Come a Time" was recorded by Trumbauer's band, the band rehearsed "A Letter (or Two Letters) from Dixie." Miff Mole was present for the rehearsal, but left before "There'll Come a Time" was recorded. According to Evans and Evans, Crozier and Leibrook were members of the band for "There'll Come a Time": Crozier on tsx and bsax; Leibrook on bsax. Evans and Kiner give Crozier on ts and barsax. Norman Fied proposed the the bsax in Evans and Evans is a typo and should be bassoon. Does anyone hear a bassoon or a baritone sax or a tenor sax in Bix and Tram's "There'll Come a Time"?

Albert
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Joined: January 1st, 1970, 12:00 am

August 29th, 2015, 12:38 pm #9

.... album


"San Antonio Shout" is credited to Sidney Arodin / Wingy Manone / Terry Shand.

Does anyone have this CD and if so, can he/she tell us what the liners say about "San Antonio Shout"?

Albert

The same matrix number is given for the Decca and Brunswick issues of "San Antonio Shout" by the NORK.
Frohttp://www.honkingduck.com/discography/ ... ythm_kings

Recordings by 'New Orleans Rhythm Kings'
San Antonio Shout - BRUNSWICK (American) - 80118 - 1934-09-12; Composer: Shand - Sidney Arodin; matrix: 38608; xref: DE161; ~3 min
San Antonio Shout - DECCA (American) - 161A - 1934-09-12; Composer: Terry Shand - Sidney Arodin; matrix: 38608; ~3 min
Thanks to the generosity of Frank van Nus, a long time friend and contributor to the Bixography Forum, here are scans of the cover, track listing and liners.

https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/786 ... tCover.jpg

https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/786 ... isting.jpg

https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/786 ... iners1.jpg

https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/786 ... iners2.jpg

You will notice that the composers of "San Antonio Shout" are given as Shan, Arodin and Manone, but Mole is not mentioned and no further information is given for this track.

Here is an mp3 file of Pollack's "San Antonio Shout." Thank you, Frank.

https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/786 ... oShout.mp3

Albert
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