The members of the Jean Goldkette orchestra in early 1926, revisited. According to ....

The members of the Jean Goldkette orchestra in early 1926, revisited. According to ....

Joined: January 1st, 1970, 12:00 am

May 27th, 2016, 9:50 pm #1

.... Variety, Jan 27, 1926.

http://ia800909.us.archive.org/BookRead ... 1_0243.jp2

A few problems:

- Jimmy Dorsey was not a regular member of the orchestra by 1926; he had left in 1924. He was used in recordings when the band was in New York. But so was Joe Venuti (but not Lang in early 1926); however his name is not listed in the Variety ad.
- The pianist is given as Irving Riskin. If you look at Rust's jazz discography, the pianist in the Jan 27 and 28, 1926 recording sessions (The Roses Brought You Me, After I Say I'm Sorry, Dinah) is Lou Longo. So which is it?

Another problem, but this one is ridiculous.: According tohttp://adp.library.ucsb.edu/index.php/m ... 4369-Dinah
Instrumentation: Violin, 3 saxophones, 2 cornets, 2 trombones, tuba, banjo, piano, and traps. Tuba!!!! That's Steve Brown slapping the bass with all his might! And there is no mention of Russ Morgan.

The Timeless Jean Goldkette CD with Ate van Delden discography gives Lou Congo [sic] as pianist.

In the excellent article "The Early Career of Spiegle Willcox: Influences to 1930 by Ralph T. Dudgeon & William Lane (discography), Riskin is listed as the pianist in Goldkette's recording session of Jan 28, 1927.

Riskin recalls playing the piano in Dinah, according to Evans and Kiner.

Billboard of Feb 6, 1926 gives the same as Variety, Riskin on piano.

Most likely , Riskin on piano.

It is worth reminding that the arranger for Dinah was Russ Morgan.

Albert
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Mark Gabrish Conlan
Mark Gabrish Conlan

May 28th, 2016, 6:13 pm #2

The "Variety" ad is a listing for the Jean Goldkette personnel that were playing at Roseland ballroom in the gig the ad was promoting. So it's entirely possible that the personnel listed are accurate for the live gig but not for the recording sessions. Jimmy Dorsey could well have returned to the band temporarily for just that one job.

Also amusing was that huge ad warning that public performance of the song "Valencia" was "strictly prohibited" by order of the original European publisher, Editions Salabert (whose New York affiliate's address is listed) and the Shubert Theatre Company, which had bought the song for one of their shows. Aside from reminding us that crazy copyright demands are not unique to our own time, one wonders why the Shuberts and Salabert wouldn't have wanted "Valencia" to be performed, recorded and broadcast widely to promote both the song and the show the Shuberts were using it in. And we know from other sources that "Valencia" was in the Goldkette band 's repertoire!
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Joined: January 1st, 1970, 12:00 am

May 29th, 2016, 11:50 am #3

.... Variety, Jan 27, 1926.

http://ia800909.us.archive.org/BookRead ... 1_0243.jp2

A few problems:

- Jimmy Dorsey was not a regular member of the orchestra by 1926; he had left in 1924. He was used in recordings when the band was in New York. But so was Joe Venuti (but not Lang in early 1926); however his name is not listed in the Variety ad.
- The pianist is given as Irving Riskin. If you look at Rust's jazz discography, the pianist in the Jan 27 and 28, 1926 recording sessions (The Roses Brought You Me, After I Say I'm Sorry, Dinah) is Lou Longo. So which is it?

Another problem, but this one is ridiculous.: According tohttp://adp.library.ucsb.edu/index.php/m ... 4369-Dinah
Instrumentation: Violin, 3 saxophones, 2 cornets, 2 trombones, tuba, banjo, piano, and traps. Tuba!!!! That's Steve Brown slapping the bass with all his might! And there is no mention of Russ Morgan.

The Timeless Jean Goldkette CD with Ate van Delden discography gives Lou Congo [sic] as pianist.

In the excellent article "The Early Career of Spiegle Willcox: Influences to 1930 by Ralph T. Dudgeon & William Lane (discography), Riskin is listed as the pianist in Goldkette's recording session of Jan 28, 1927.

Riskin recalls playing the piano in Dinah, according to Evans and Kiner.

Billboard of Feb 6, 1926 gives the same as Variety, Riskin on piano.

Most likely , Riskin on piano.

It is worth reminding that the arranger for Dinah was Russ Morgan.

Albert
http://ia600906.us.archive.org/BookRead ... 4&rotate=0

Albert
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Joined: January 1st, 1970, 12:00 am

May 29th, 2016, 12:26 pm #4

.... Variety, Jan 27, 1926.

http://ia800909.us.archive.org/BookRead ... 1_0243.jp2

A few problems:

- Jimmy Dorsey was not a regular member of the orchestra by 1926; he had left in 1924. He was used in recordings when the band was in New York. But so was Joe Venuti (but not Lang in early 1926); however his name is not listed in the Variety ad.
- The pianist is given as Irving Riskin. If you look at Rust's jazz discography, the pianist in the Jan 27 and 28, 1926 recording sessions (The Roses Brought You Me, After I Say I'm Sorry, Dinah) is Lou Longo. So which is it?

Another problem, but this one is ridiculous.: According tohttp://adp.library.ucsb.edu/index.php/m ... 4369-Dinah
Instrumentation: Violin, 3 saxophones, 2 cornets, 2 trombones, tuba, banjo, piano, and traps. Tuba!!!! That's Steve Brown slapping the bass with all his might! And there is no mention of Russ Morgan.

The Timeless Jean Goldkette CD with Ate van Delden discography gives Lou Congo [sic] as pianist.

In the excellent article "The Early Career of Spiegle Willcox: Influences to 1930 by Ralph T. Dudgeon & William Lane (discography), Riskin is listed as the pianist in Goldkette's recording session of Jan 28, 1927.

Riskin recalls playing the piano in Dinah, according to Evans and Kiner.

Billboard of Feb 6, 1926 gives the same as Variety, Riskin on piano.

Most likely , Riskin on piano.

It is worth reminding that the arranger for Dinah was Russ Morgan.

Albert
Irving was a member of the legendary Scranton Sirens.

http://ia801807.us.archive.org/BookRead ... 4&rotate=0

Take a look at the band members: they all had direct (recorded with or were members of an orchestra at the same time as)or indirect (recorded with musicians who recorded with) connections with Bix: Riskin, Lang, Evans, D'Ippolito, Trafficante, Morgan, Trucker, Crossan.

Albert
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James E. Parten
James E. Parten

May 29th, 2016, 7:17 pm #5

The "Variety" ad is a listing for the Jean Goldkette personnel that were playing at Roseland ballroom in the gig the ad was promoting. So it's entirely possible that the personnel listed are accurate for the live gig but not for the recording sessions. Jimmy Dorsey could well have returned to the band temporarily for just that one job.

Also amusing was that huge ad warning that public performance of the song "Valencia" was "strictly prohibited" by order of the original European publisher, Editions Salabert (whose New York affiliate's address is listed) and the Shubert Theatre Company, which had bought the song for one of their shows. Aside from reminding us that crazy copyright demands are not unique to our own time, one wonders why the Shuberts and Salabert wouldn't have wanted "Valencia" to be performed, recorded and broadcast widely to promote both the song and the show the Shuberts were using it in. And we know from other sources that "Valencia" was in the Goldkette band 's repertoire!
"Valencia" first appeared in a show "The Great Temptations". This show was, if I've read right, somewhat controversial for its display of female flesh.

Such exclusivity was quite common regarding songs from Broadway shows. It usually didn't last long, and that was the case with "Valencia"

It had ended, in fact, by the end of March, 1926, when Paul Whiteman recorded the song for Victor. During the next month, it was cut for Columbia by Ross Gorman's orchestra, and for Brunswick by Ben Selvin's orchestra.

Record followed record--not only dance orchestras, but popular vocals (Franklyn Baur, The Revelers), pipe-organ (Jesse Crawford), even straight orchestras (LaCalle's Spanish Band).

Even Will Rogers, who was touring in Europe during the period when the song was making its first glimpse of popularity, noted the song, describing it as Europe's paying America back for "Yes, We Have No Bananas'. "It ain't the piece--" he wrote, "--it's the number of times the will play it!"

Songs lasted longer in those days, and "Valencia" had not yet worn out its welcome by the time the Goldkette band returned to the Roseland ballroom in October, 1926. Hence, the use of this song as "something they [the dancing customers] don't expect."

It surprises me that there does not appear to have been a song protesting the overexposure of "Valencia"--as there had been with "Yes! We Have No Bananas", and as there would be with other songs.

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Coscannon
Coscannon

May 29th, 2016, 10:59 pm #6

.... Variety, Jan 27, 1926.

http://ia800909.us.archive.org/BookRead ... 1_0243.jp2

A few problems:

- Jimmy Dorsey was not a regular member of the orchestra by 1926; he had left in 1924. He was used in recordings when the band was in New York. But so was Joe Venuti (but not Lang in early 1926); however his name is not listed in the Variety ad.
- The pianist is given as Irving Riskin. If you look at Rust's jazz discography, the pianist in the Jan 27 and 28, 1926 recording sessions (The Roses Brought You Me, After I Say I'm Sorry, Dinah) is Lou Longo. So which is it?

Another problem, but this one is ridiculous.: According tohttp://adp.library.ucsb.edu/index.php/m ... 4369-Dinah
Instrumentation: Violin, 3 saxophones, 2 cornets, 2 trombones, tuba, banjo, piano, and traps. Tuba!!!! That's Steve Brown slapping the bass with all his might! And there is no mention of Russ Morgan.

The Timeless Jean Goldkette CD with Ate van Delden discography gives Lou Congo [sic] as pianist.

In the excellent article "The Early Career of Spiegle Willcox: Influences to 1930 by Ralph T. Dudgeon & William Lane (discography), Riskin is listed as the pianist in Goldkette's recording session of Jan 28, 1927.

Riskin recalls playing the piano in Dinah, according to Evans and Kiner.

Billboard of Feb 6, 1926 gives the same as Variety, Riskin on piano.

Most likely , Riskin on piano.

It is worth reminding that the arranger for Dinah was Russ Morgan.

Albert
Riskin was in New York with the band and the recording was made in NY (more precisely Camden, NJ).

Matter of fact, it's been less than 6 months since we last discussed this very same thing.
http://www.network54.com/Forum/27140/me ... +Goldkette's+After+I+Say+I'm+Sorry-Dinah-+Longo+or+Riskin.

At that time, I provided the Evans and Kiner reference, complete with page number and Riskin's recollection that he'd been ordered to play DINAH the way Eddie King had shown him. Thanks for remembering, Albert.
http://www.network54.com/Forum/27140/me ... +Recording
and
http://www.network54.com/Forum/27140/me ... %26quot%3B

Another point: Back in that November 2015 thread, you posted a photo of the Goldkette orchestra you dated as 1924.
http://www.network54.com/Forum/27140/me ... +orchestra.

That date is incorrect. Photo could not have been taken before October 1925 when Spiegel Willcox joined Goldkette, as stated in "Goldkette and All That Jazz," Storyville #159.

Also, look at the pianist in the photo at
http://www.network54.com/Forum/27140/me ... +orchestra.

He resembles Irving Riskin as much if not more than Lou Longo who we DO see in the photo at
http://www.network54.com/Forum/27140/me ... +Goldkette's+After+I+Say+I'm+Sorry-Dinah-+Longo+or+Riskin.

So, is it now forever agreed that Riskin played the piano on the record of DINAH?



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Coscannon
Coscannon

May 30th, 2016, 6:49 am #7

The Goldkette DINAH recording could have occurred in NYC proper. My real point was Izzy told us he was on the record and we know Izzy was with the band at Roseland in NYC. Lou Longo wasn't.

BUGLES FOR BEIDERBECKE says Russ Morgan personally chose Riskin to replace Longo in the Goldkette orchestra. And further adds that Riskin was in place by the beginning of 1926. Morgan and Riskin's mutual Scranton Sirens history makes this claim plausible. Only slightly undermining complete credibility is that BUGLES (1958) is the apparent source for Longo's alternate identity as "Lou Congo." To clarify, authors Wareing and Garlick invariably call the pianist "Lou Congo." At least we now know "Congo" started long before Timeless Records.

Though I can't fully untangle the "Congo" substitution, I proudly provide this link in its exotic chain of existence.
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Joined: January 1st, 1970, 12:00 am

May 30th, 2016, 1:01 pm #8

Riskin was in New York with the band and the recording was made in NY (more precisely Camden, NJ).

Matter of fact, it's been less than 6 months since we last discussed this very same thing.
http://www.network54.com/Forum/27140/me ... +Goldkette's+After+I+Say+I'm+Sorry-Dinah-+Longo+or+Riskin.

At that time, I provided the Evans and Kiner reference, complete with page number and Riskin's recollection that he'd been ordered to play DINAH the way Eddie King had shown him. Thanks for remembering, Albert.
http://www.network54.com/Forum/27140/me ... +Recording
and
http://www.network54.com/Forum/27140/me ... %26quot%3B

Another point: Back in that November 2015 thread, you posted a photo of the Goldkette orchestra you dated as 1924.
http://www.network54.com/Forum/27140/me ... +orchestra.

That date is incorrect. Photo could not have been taken before October 1925 when Spiegel Willcox joined Goldkette, as stated in "Goldkette and All That Jazz," Storyville #159.

Also, look at the pianist in the photo at
http://www.network54.com/Forum/27140/me ... +orchestra.

He resembles Irving Riskin as much if not more than Lou Longo who we DO see in the photo at
http://www.network54.com/Forum/27140/me ... +Goldkette's+After+I+Say+I'm+Sorry-Dinah-+Longo+or+Riskin.

So, is it now forever agreed that Riskin played the piano on the record of DINAH?


The source of the photo

is Ricky Bauchelle, the daughter of Doc Ryker.
Here is a better quality photo:


Ricky gave me a copy of the photo, the date, and the names of the musicians. 1924 seemed reasonable since Jimmy Dorsey had left the Goldkette orchestra in late 1924 to join the California Ramblers. Lou Longo would also make sense in 1924. But Russ Morgan would not. He joined Goldkette in 1925.

The photo is identified by Ralph Dudgeon as "Figure 19. The Goldkette Orchestra in action at the Greystone Ballroom, Detroit, Michigan 1925. (Courtesy Willcox Archive, SUNY Cortland)." Lou Longo might make sense in 1925 as would Russ Morgan when the Goldkette band was in Detroit. But Jimmy in 1925 in the Graystone is not possible: Jimmy was in New York all of 1925.

We know that Jimmy was hired temporarily by Goldkette in early 1926 when the Goldkette band made its first appearance at Roseland. Therefore, the only reasonable conclusion is that the photo was taken in Roseland in early 1926. Everything makes sense: Russ Morgan and Jimmy together in the Goldkette orchestra and, as Coscannon pointed out, the guy identified as Lou Longo by Ricky must be Irving Riskin.

Albert
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Joined: January 1st, 1970, 12:00 am

May 30th, 2016, 2:01 pm #9

Riskin was in New York with the band and the recording was made in NY (more precisely Camden, NJ).

Matter of fact, it's been less than 6 months since we last discussed this very same thing.
http://www.network54.com/Forum/27140/me ... +Goldkette's+After+I+Say+I'm+Sorry-Dinah-+Longo+or+Riskin.

At that time, I provided the Evans and Kiner reference, complete with page number and Riskin's recollection that he'd been ordered to play DINAH the way Eddie King had shown him. Thanks for remembering, Albert.
http://www.network54.com/Forum/27140/me ... +Recording
and
http://www.network54.com/Forum/27140/me ... %26quot%3B

Another point: Back in that November 2015 thread, you posted a photo of the Goldkette orchestra you dated as 1924.
http://www.network54.com/Forum/27140/me ... +orchestra.

That date is incorrect. Photo could not have been taken before October 1925 when Spiegel Willcox joined Goldkette, as stated in "Goldkette and All That Jazz," Storyville #159.

Also, look at the pianist in the photo at
http://www.network54.com/Forum/27140/me ... +orchestra.

He resembles Irving Riskin as much if not more than Lou Longo who we DO see in the photo at
http://www.network54.com/Forum/27140/me ... +Goldkette's+After+I+Say+I'm+Sorry-Dinah-+Longo+or+Riskin.

So, is it now forever agreed that Riskin played the piano on the record of DINAH?


http://archive.nationaljazzarchive.co.u ... tyPhoto/0/

The fight between Russ Morgan and Jimmy Dorsey could not have taken place in the Graystone. Russ and Jimmy were never together at the Graystone. If there was a fight on stage, it would have been at Roseland.

Fud Livinstone with the main Goldkette outfit in late 1925? I don't think so, but would accept documentation.

Jimmy Dorsey did not replace Fud Livingston in late 1925 and did not stay with the band until several months later when Bix and Tram joined Goldkette. Jimmy was in New York all of 1925 and was hired temporarily when the Goldkette band was at Roseland and for recordings.

Albert
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Coscannon
Coscannon

May 30th, 2016, 5:52 pm #10

I could get querulous about other apparent or potential discrepancies that also have nothing to do with the matter in question. But why linger beyond the critical indisputable point: Willcox knew better than anyone when HE joined Goldkette. October 1925. Hence the photo date of 1924 is wrong and should be acknowledged and changed. That's all that's relevant here.
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