Ten Years Is Not Too Long To Wait To Talk About "Star Dust."

Ten Years Is Not Too Long To Wait To Talk About "Star Dust."

Brad Kay
Brad Kay

August 29th, 2017, 10:00 am #1

Albert!

I got into a conniption about your and Vince's "Star Dust" remarks, from Bixography, on FaceBook. I spent an hour composing a well-reasoned and informative addendum, posted it, then saw nary a trace of the thread on the main page. I puzzled over it for fifteen more minutes, then finally realized that this "Star Dust" conversation took place in 2007! So my post appears ten years ago. But I put it here also, in hopes that a contemporary person from TODAY also might like it.

*****

After all the analysis, I still am ciphering over the evolution of "Stardust," specifically, its transformation on records, from an esoteric hot jazz number to the most recorded ballad in history. Just to scratch an itch, I tracked its development thusly:

October 31, 1927: Hoagy Carmichael and his Pals. The "Big Bang" premiere. medium-to-uptempo rendition, billed on the label as a "Stomp."

October 13, 1928: Don Redman directs The Chocolate Dandies in Hoagy's arrangement, a similar up-tempo performance.

November 8, 1928: Mills Merry Makers. First slow version. Never gets around to the principal melody! Whose idea was this??

May 15, 1930: Isham Jones and his Orchestra. The definitive Victor Young arrangement, which proves the worth of "Stardust" as a popular ballad, and crystallizes the melody for all time.

Late March, 1931: Fletcher Henderson & his Orchestra. Still an up-tempo instrumental, a throw-back to Hoagy's first arrangement.

May 1, 1931: Mills Blue Rhythm Band, vocal Chick Bullock. Was he the first to record the lyrics? On YouTube, there are two distinctly different versions by the MBRB: a medium-tempo instrumental using much of the original Hoagy arrangement, including the piano paraphrase; and a completely different, much slower version, with Chick's vocal. Are they alternates, or from different sessions?

July 9, 1931: Washboard Rhythm Kings, vocal by Eddie Miles, who doesn't get the timing.

August 12, 1931: Bing Crosby, who DOES get the timing.

November 4, 1931: Louis Armstrong & his Orchestra. Vocal by Louis, who not only gets the timing, but redefines it.

Is this the way y'all see it? Of course, I did not mention EVERY version!

-Brad K

P.S. According to WikiPedia, Mitchell Parrish added the lyrics in 1929. WHY did it take so long to include them on a record?

P.P.S. In his early days as a composer, Hoagy had a habit of never quite defining the melody of a piece. "Washboard Blues" and "Boneyard Shuffle" also were transformed over time.
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David Tenner
David Tenner

August 29th, 2017, 1:25 pm #2

He gives it as:

BLUE RlBBON BOYS: As above; Wardell Jones, Chick Bullock, v. New York, May 1 , 1931 .
10589-2-3 Star Dust -vCB
Ban 32166, Cq 7865, Or 2265, Per 1 5468, Re 10342, Ro 1631 , Royale 391133

So apparently those are two takes made the same day.
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Joined: January 1st, 1970, 12:00 am

August 29th, 2017, 3:50 pm #3

Albert!

I got into a conniption about your and Vince's "Star Dust" remarks, from Bixography, on FaceBook. I spent an hour composing a well-reasoned and informative addendum, posted it, then saw nary a trace of the thread on the main page. I puzzled over it for fifteen more minutes, then finally realized that this "Star Dust" conversation took place in 2007! So my post appears ten years ago. But I put it here also, in hopes that a contemporary person from TODAY also might like it.

*****

After all the analysis, I still am ciphering over the evolution of "Stardust," specifically, its transformation on records, from an esoteric hot jazz number to the most recorded ballad in history. Just to scratch an itch, I tracked its development thusly:

October 31, 1927: Hoagy Carmichael and his Pals. The "Big Bang" premiere. medium-to-uptempo rendition, billed on the label as a "Stomp."

October 13, 1928: Don Redman directs The Chocolate Dandies in Hoagy's arrangement, a similar up-tempo performance.

November 8, 1928: Mills Merry Makers. First slow version. Never gets around to the principal melody! Whose idea was this??

May 15, 1930: Isham Jones and his Orchestra. The definitive Victor Young arrangement, which proves the worth of "Stardust" as a popular ballad, and crystallizes the melody for all time.

Late March, 1931: Fletcher Henderson & his Orchestra. Still an up-tempo instrumental, a throw-back to Hoagy's first arrangement.

May 1, 1931: Mills Blue Rhythm Band, vocal Chick Bullock. Was he the first to record the lyrics? On YouTube, there are two distinctly different versions by the MBRB: a medium-tempo instrumental using much of the original Hoagy arrangement, including the piano paraphrase; and a completely different, much slower version, with Chick's vocal. Are they alternates, or from different sessions?

July 9, 1931: Washboard Rhythm Kings, vocal by Eddie Miles, who doesn't get the timing.

August 12, 1931: Bing Crosby, who DOES get the timing.

November 4, 1931: Louis Armstrong & his Orchestra. Vocal by Louis, who not only gets the timing, but redefines it.

Is this the way y'all see it? Of course, I did not mention EVERY version!

-Brad K

P.S. According to WikiPedia, Mitchell Parrish added the lyrics in 1929. WHY did it take so long to include them on a record?

P.P.S. In his early days as a composer, Hoagy had a habit of never quite defining the melody of a piece. "Washboard Blues" and "Boneyard Shuffle" also were transformed over time.
http://www.network54.com/Forum/27140/message/1254768190

I gave the chronological listing of the first five recordings of the tune

Hoagy Carmichael and His Pals 10/31/1927
Chocolate Dandies (McKinneys Cotton Pickers) 10/13/1928
Mills Merry Makers 11/08/1928 (A typo in the original posting: 1929 instead of 1928)
Irving Mills and His Hotsy Totsy Gang 09/20/1929
Isham Jones and His Orchestra 05/16/1930

You missed the 1929 version. Otherwise, your list is fine.

I would add
Wayne King February 20, 1931
Ben Selvin Apr 22, 1931
Victor Young May 22, 1931

Albert
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James E. Parten
James E. Parten

August 29th, 2017, 3:53 pm #4

Albert!

I got into a conniption about your and Vince's "Star Dust" remarks, from Bixography, on FaceBook. I spent an hour composing a well-reasoned and informative addendum, posted it, then saw nary a trace of the thread on the main page. I puzzled over it for fifteen more minutes, then finally realized that this "Star Dust" conversation took place in 2007! So my post appears ten years ago. But I put it here also, in hopes that a contemporary person from TODAY also might like it.

*****

After all the analysis, I still am ciphering over the evolution of "Stardust," specifically, its transformation on records, from an esoteric hot jazz number to the most recorded ballad in history. Just to scratch an itch, I tracked its development thusly:

October 31, 1927: Hoagy Carmichael and his Pals. The "Big Bang" premiere. medium-to-uptempo rendition, billed on the label as a "Stomp."

October 13, 1928: Don Redman directs The Chocolate Dandies in Hoagy's arrangement, a similar up-tempo performance.

November 8, 1928: Mills Merry Makers. First slow version. Never gets around to the principal melody! Whose idea was this??

May 15, 1930: Isham Jones and his Orchestra. The definitive Victor Young arrangement, which proves the worth of "Stardust" as a popular ballad, and crystallizes the melody for all time.

Late March, 1931: Fletcher Henderson & his Orchestra. Still an up-tempo instrumental, a throw-back to Hoagy's first arrangement.

May 1, 1931: Mills Blue Rhythm Band, vocal Chick Bullock. Was he the first to record the lyrics? On YouTube, there are two distinctly different versions by the MBRB: a medium-tempo instrumental using much of the original Hoagy arrangement, including the piano paraphrase; and a completely different, much slower version, with Chick's vocal. Are they alternates, or from different sessions?

July 9, 1931: Washboard Rhythm Kings, vocal by Eddie Miles, who doesn't get the timing.

August 12, 1931: Bing Crosby, who DOES get the timing.

November 4, 1931: Louis Armstrong & his Orchestra. Vocal by Louis, who not only gets the timing, but redefines it.

Is this the way y'all see it? Of course, I did not mention EVERY version!

-Brad K

P.S. According to WikiPedia, Mitchell Parrish added the lyrics in 1929. WHY did it take so long to include them on a record?

P.P.S. In his early days as a composer, Hoagy had a habit of never quite defining the melody of a piece. "Washboard Blues" and "Boneyard Shuffle" also were transformed over time.
Actually, a version of "Stardust" with vocal refrain was cut eight days before the MBRB version.

On April 23, 1931, a Ben Selvin orchestra, including Mannie Klein and Benny Goodman, cut four sides for issue on the lower=priced Harmony, Velvet Tone and Clarion labels--with frequent co-issues on OKeh,as well Of the four, "Star Dust" was the last side cut that day.
The record follows one of the stock arrangements pretty closely. Smith Ballew takes the vocal, and, upon listening to it, you wonder if this is the first time he's seen the sheet music for the song. On his pat, it's an unpolished run-through.
The primary soloists are the two trumpeters--one of whom is probably Mannie Klein.
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Joined: January 1st, 1970, 12:00 am

August 29th, 2017, 4:11 pm #5

Albert!

I got into a conniption about your and Vince's "Star Dust" remarks, from Bixography, on FaceBook. I spent an hour composing a well-reasoned and informative addendum, posted it, then saw nary a trace of the thread on the main page. I puzzled over it for fifteen more minutes, then finally realized that this "Star Dust" conversation took place in 2007! So my post appears ten years ago. But I put it here also, in hopes that a contemporary person from TODAY also might like it.

*****

After all the analysis, I still am ciphering over the evolution of "Stardust," specifically, its transformation on records, from an esoteric hot jazz number to the most recorded ballad in history. Just to scratch an itch, I tracked its development thusly:

October 31, 1927: Hoagy Carmichael and his Pals. The "Big Bang" premiere. medium-to-uptempo rendition, billed on the label as a "Stomp."

October 13, 1928: Don Redman directs The Chocolate Dandies in Hoagy's arrangement, a similar up-tempo performance.

November 8, 1928: Mills Merry Makers. First slow version. Never gets around to the principal melody! Whose idea was this??

May 15, 1930: Isham Jones and his Orchestra. The definitive Victor Young arrangement, which proves the worth of "Stardust" as a popular ballad, and crystallizes the melody for all time.

Late March, 1931: Fletcher Henderson & his Orchestra. Still an up-tempo instrumental, a throw-back to Hoagy's first arrangement.

May 1, 1931: Mills Blue Rhythm Band, vocal Chick Bullock. Was he the first to record the lyrics? On YouTube, there are two distinctly different versions by the MBRB: a medium-tempo instrumental using much of the original Hoagy arrangement, including the piano paraphrase; and a completely different, much slower version, with Chick's vocal. Are they alternates, or from different sessions?

July 9, 1931: Washboard Rhythm Kings, vocal by Eddie Miles, who doesn't get the timing.

August 12, 1931: Bing Crosby, who DOES get the timing.

November 4, 1931: Louis Armstrong & his Orchestra. Vocal by Louis, who not only gets the timing, but redefines it.

Is this the way y'all see it? Of course, I did not mention EVERY version!

-Brad K

P.S. According to WikiPedia, Mitchell Parrish added the lyrics in 1929. WHY did it take so long to include them on a record?

P.P.S. In his early days as a composer, Hoagy had a habit of never quite defining the melody of a piece. "Washboard Blues" and "Boneyard Shuffle" also were transformed over time.
From

http://www.network54.com/Forum/27140/me ... strong%27s

March 25, 1931 Will Osborne and His Orchestra.
E-36506 Mt M-12189 vocal Will Osborne

April 22, 1931 Ben Selvin and His Orchestra
351014 Har 1320-H, C1 5319-C, VT 2385-V vocal Smith Ballew

May 1, 1931 Mills Blue Rhythm Boys
10589 Ban 32166, Cq 7865, etc Vocla by Chick Bullock

May 20, 1931 Will Osborne and His Orchestra.
E-36715 Mt M-12189 vocal Will Osborne (note same Mt number as March 25)

Jume 11, 1931 Gene Austin accompanied by Nat Shilkret Orchestra
BS-70176-1-2 Rejected

July 1, 1931 Washboaard Rhythm Kings
68265 Vic 23285, Zon EE-284 Vocal by Eddie Miles

August 19, 1931 Bing Crosby
accompanied by Victor Young Orchestra
E-37087 Br 6169, etc

September 3, 1931 Gene Austin accompanied by Nat Shilkret Orchestra
BS-70176-3 Vic 22797 (not issued)

November 4, 1931 Louis Armstrong and His Orchestra
405061 OK 41530, etc

Albert
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Brad Kay
Brad Kay

August 29th, 2017, 6:58 pm #6

He gives it as:

BLUE RlBBON BOYS: As above; Wardell Jones, Chick Bullock, v. New York, May 1 , 1931 .
10589-2-3 Star Dust -vCB
Ban 32166, Cq 7865, Or 2265, Per 1 5468, Re 10342, Ro 1631 , Royale 391133

So apparently those are two takes made the same day.
There ARE two "Star Dusts" by the Mills Blue Rhythm band on YouTube, but one of them is mislabeled. It's the Mills Hotsy Totsy Gang version, with Hoagy on piano! I should have recognized it right away!

-Brad K
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Nick Dellow
Nick Dellow

August 29th, 2017, 8:59 pm #7

From

http://www.network54.com/Forum/27140/me ... strong%27s

March 25, 1931 Will Osborne and His Orchestra.
E-36506 Mt M-12189 vocal Will Osborne

April 22, 1931 Ben Selvin and His Orchestra
351014 Har 1320-H, C1 5319-C, VT 2385-V vocal Smith Ballew

May 1, 1931 Mills Blue Rhythm Boys
10589 Ban 32166, Cq 7865, etc Vocla by Chick Bullock

May 20, 1931 Will Osborne and His Orchestra.
E-36715 Mt M-12189 vocal Will Osborne (note same Mt number as March 25)

Jume 11, 1931 Gene Austin accompanied by Nat Shilkret Orchestra
BS-70176-1-2 Rejected

July 1, 1931 Washboaard Rhythm Kings
68265 Vic 23285, Zon EE-284 Vocal by Eddie Miles

August 19, 1931 Bing Crosby
accompanied by Victor Young Orchestra
E-37087 Br 6169, etc

September 3, 1931 Gene Austin accompanied by Nat Shilkret Orchestra
BS-70176-3 Vic 22797 (not issued)

November 4, 1931 Louis Armstrong and His Orchestra
405061 OK 41530, etc

Albert
In 2004, Brad Kay sent me a cassette tape (remember those?) featuring a wonderful selection of songs related to Bix, played and sung by Brad with perfectly pitched patter sandwiched in-between.

The most outstanding song in the selection, in my estimation, is "Don't Cry Baby". There is a Stardust and Bix connection, as you'll hear. Fascinating stuff! With Brad's permission (thanks Brad), here is the link to it:-


http://picosong.com/wsh4M/


Nick


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Andy V.
Andy V.

August 30th, 2017, 2:43 am #8

Ha! That's fantastic! Thanks for this.

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Nick Dellow
Nick Dellow

August 30th, 2017, 1:48 pm #9

Albert!

I got into a conniption about your and Vince's "Star Dust" remarks, from Bixography, on FaceBook. I spent an hour composing a well-reasoned and informative addendum, posted it, then saw nary a trace of the thread on the main page. I puzzled over it for fifteen more minutes, then finally realized that this "Star Dust" conversation took place in 2007! So my post appears ten years ago. But I put it here also, in hopes that a contemporary person from TODAY also might like it.

*****

After all the analysis, I still am ciphering over the evolution of "Stardust," specifically, its transformation on records, from an esoteric hot jazz number to the most recorded ballad in history. Just to scratch an itch, I tracked its development thusly:

October 31, 1927: Hoagy Carmichael and his Pals. The "Big Bang" premiere. medium-to-uptempo rendition, billed on the label as a "Stomp."

October 13, 1928: Don Redman directs The Chocolate Dandies in Hoagy's arrangement, a similar up-tempo performance.

November 8, 1928: Mills Merry Makers. First slow version. Never gets around to the principal melody! Whose idea was this??

May 15, 1930: Isham Jones and his Orchestra. The definitive Victor Young arrangement, which proves the worth of "Stardust" as a popular ballad, and crystallizes the melody for all time.

Late March, 1931: Fletcher Henderson & his Orchestra. Still an up-tempo instrumental, a throw-back to Hoagy's first arrangement.

May 1, 1931: Mills Blue Rhythm Band, vocal Chick Bullock. Was he the first to record the lyrics? On YouTube, there are two distinctly different versions by the MBRB: a medium-tempo instrumental using much of the original Hoagy arrangement, including the piano paraphrase; and a completely different, much slower version, with Chick's vocal. Are they alternates, or from different sessions?

July 9, 1931: Washboard Rhythm Kings, vocal by Eddie Miles, who doesn't get the timing.

August 12, 1931: Bing Crosby, who DOES get the timing.

November 4, 1931: Louis Armstrong & his Orchestra. Vocal by Louis, who not only gets the timing, but redefines it.

Is this the way y'all see it? Of course, I did not mention EVERY version!

-Brad K

P.S. According to WikiPedia, Mitchell Parrish added the lyrics in 1929. WHY did it take so long to include them on a record?

P.P.S. In his early days as a composer, Hoagy had a habit of never quite defining the melody of a piece. "Washboard Blues" and "Boneyard Shuffle" also were transformed over time.
I have an original letter sent by Nick LaRocca to Bill Dean-Myatt. For some reason, I only have the second page (typed on both sides). Therefore, I don't have a date for the letter, but it would be late 1950s I think. LaRocca signs it in blue ink, and uses the same pen to make several corrections to his typed text. The last paragraph of the letter is as follows:-

"Getting back to Bix, this man Carmichael sure owes Bix a plenty for his success in the music business, "Star Dust". Bix played an obbligato when he came the second time to N.Y. City to see me on "Singing The Blues" by J R Robinson who had played with me in America and part time in England, then again at Folies Bergere N.Y.C. 1920-1921. I will not say this was exactly as the tune of Carmichael but the idea was there from the chord construction of "Singing The Blues". Probably nobody ever mentioned this before but I am a Fakir and can see and hear the foundations of tunes and their derivatives, and Bix made an obbligato somewhat on the style of this tune Stardust. Please do not quote me on this as I am a Fakir and would not like to get involved in a discussion as to the composer of this number as Carmichael is credited with this composition, but I have heard that he and Bix were close. I will close with my best wishes for a successful book on my boy, Bix. I am, Sincerely yours, D Jas (Nick) LaRocca."

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Joined: January 1st, 1970, 12:00 am

August 30th, 2017, 2:58 pm #10

.... from Nick LaRocca to Bill Dean-Myatt in

http://www.network54.com/Forum/27140/message/1417018726

Courtesy of your friend Mark. I had to search the forum to find the posting. This was not in my memory bank. There is less and less there.

Correspondence between Bill and Nick in Tulane University website:

https://specialcollections.tulane.edu/a ... dean+myatt

Albert

PS Hoagy whistles in a Bixian manner.
http://www.network54.com/Forum/27140/message/1224092433
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