Growth-Inhibiting Hormone in fry

Best maintenance practices to keep your bettas their best! Feeding, Water Quality, and Disease Diagnosis and Treatment
Smitty
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Smitty
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19 Sep 2007, 01:21 #2

THANKS GRB!!!

I had read some of those, among other info' in some of our books, so it's really no surprise to me.
Since I'm getting pretty serious about breeding Bettas, I'm constantly studying not only additional info' that I can find (one of the reasons I love this forum so much!), but I'm also studying my actual fish as well. I'm watching growth rate, behavior, etc., and what things seem to have an effect on the Bettas over-all condition. Although I do understand that the first eggs in the nest and the last ones (maybe as much as 6 hours later) to be put in the nest may differ in sized or growth-rate of the fry, etc., I'm also noticing that if/when we can thin the population in a certain grow-out tank, the fry do seemingly grow somewhat faster, and larger. BUT, even then, we still seem to have a variety of different sizes no matter what we do. Another point we've also noticed is that earlier and frequent water changes DOES seem to help.
The (established) grow out tanks that we have which have undergravel filters and lots of plants, seem to support much closer and faster growth rate in all fry, but, of course, some do still seem to grow faster than others, and we almost always still have "runts".
Contrary to most opinions, we begin gradual water changes about the time we begin to see fins. So far, our routine has been to spawn in a covered shoe-box sized plastic container (with some plant, and IAL treated aged water), and at about 10-15 days we transfer the young fry into a 10 gal. tank already set-up ("bare-bones") and aged with about 3 inches of water, and add more plants. Then, once we have increased the water level (gradually) to a depth to accomodate a corner filter, we add the filter, and again, begin 10-20% water changes from that point on, normally at least once, if not twice, weekly. Then, provided that we have an established tank with ugf ready and unoccupied, we then transfer them into that tank at about a month to month and a half old. Then from there we begin jarring the males, trying to keep the females together as long as we can, only removing the rowdy ones. Works for us, and we have LOTS of healthy growing fry. ::bettas!!!::
"The only dumb question is the one that you do not ask."

www.mybettas.com
Smitty

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jparis
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19 Sep 2007, 01:28 #3

Due to my science background, I want to know the NAME of this hormone. Often alluded to, never named. Can we find out what this is and how it works? I haven't been able to find a name anyplace
I do know they grow faster jarred. Maybe THE HORMONE maybe less food competition. That goes the same for taking the big one out of the growout tank. One rapidly takes his place...less hormone or competition. Probably something we should know
JP ::hi::
Interesting anecdote: If you raise Guppys (or any other small fry) with your Bettas
the Bettas grow faster and more uniformly and seem relatively unaffected by growth pattern differentiation
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thebettaguy
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19 Sep 2007, 02:25 #5

ya i read that to but when i added guppy fry to my frys tank the guppies decided to peck on them
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jparis
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19 Sep 2007, 02:29 #6

I put FAT guppies in my white growout tank...they had babies as Guppies do. Those fry are far more uniform than the tank next to it. Now, lots of variables...different breeding, slightly older. I started doing bigger water changes and trying new feed times. Also I did everything on earth to keep the whites uniform. I culled early and often. On moving them to their jars they took off even more but they were very even in size and fin. So the project continues. They are in with the baby Giants and with a spawn of Marbles...we shall see. As I have 3 spawns born on the same day, when those go to tubs I think I will do two with Guppies and the one without. These are pretty much the same lines. This was not my invention...I read it here a while ago ( cant remember who wrote it) and thought it worth a try. I'll let you know as we go on. I found no particular interaction between either speicies. The guppies stayed about midtank and the Bettas on top in the floating plants. There are also Cory and snails in each tub
JP ::hi::
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thebettaguy
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19 Sep 2007, 02:41 #7

I put FAT guppies in my white growout tank...they had babies as Guppies do. Those fry are far more uniform than the tank next to it. Now, lots of variables...different breeding, slightly older. I started doing bigger water changes and trying new feed times. Also I did everything on earth to keep the whites uniform. I culled early and often. On moving them to their jars they took off even more but they were very even in size and fin. So the project continues. They are in with the baby Giants and with a spawn of Marbles...we shall see. As I have 3 spawns born on the same day, when those go to tubs I think I will do two with Guppies and the one without. These are pretty much the same lines. This was not my invention...I read it here a while ago ( cant remember who wrote it) and thought it worth a try. I'll let you know as we go on. I found no particular interaction between either speicies. The guppies stayed about midtank and the Bettas on top in the floating plants. There are also Cory and snails in each tub
JP
so they didn t fight wow either i am not feeding my babies guppies right or your betta fry are big
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jparis
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19 Sep 2007, 03:14 #8

Yes, I'd say so. The Bettas were a 4 weeks old when the Guppies were born. My tubs are deep and allowed for layer diversification. Heavy floating plants gave the Bettas an advantage
JP
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MrsSmitty
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19 Sep 2007, 04:55 #9

WOW, interesting test, our son is looking for a good science project, that would be a great one.

Do ::bettas!!!:: grow more uniformed in size and finnage with guppies or without? hmmmm .....
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jparis
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19 Sep 2007, 06:14 #10

Not a good project unless we find the name of the hormone, its purpose, how it acts and why.
JP ::hi::
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jparis
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19 Sep 2007, 06:27 #11

There are too many variables to make what we have a worthy project. The even growth could have to do with the age of the spawn...the placement of the tub in the room...the mean temperature (may be unreproducible in winter). At the time I had an ABUNDANCE of live brines shrimp, they ate like kings! I have to reproduce the findings with more reliability than one spawn that had a good start before the Guppies. And if we want to prove the existence of a hormone, we need to know the name so we can test for it. Then we need to know how it functions so we can use it or eliminate it. Maybe a good project for us with proper protocols in place but too broad and hazy for a Science Fair Project. And you would need several generations and MANY spawns in testing. Maybe he could take one aspect and turn it into something. ::yeye
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jparis
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19 Sep 2007, 06:52 #12

came across some very interesting research. Maybe not a hormone but Groth Inhibiting FACTORS

;)
"GLH" or Growth Limiting Hormones" or "GIH" (Growth Inhibiting Hormones) are actually old terms taught to old people like me in old fisheries courses in old colleges. Because that old post was probably written by little (well, not so little really) old me, you found usage of old and inaccurate terms. My apologies; I still refer to many re-classified S.A. Cichlids as genus Cichlosoma. However, just because an old term was used does not mean the subject is fiction.

These chemicals do exist, and present quite a mystery to science; we just don't call them GLH or GIH any more. Back then, we weren't even sure they existed; we just had plenty of evidence that they did. The mystery is not in what they do and even some of the mechanics of the chemistry are obvious; the big question is why and how fish would have evolved the ability to excrete these substances in the first place. There are many theories but none have been proven. I should also like to point out that many scientists do believe that some fish do produce actual endocrine secretions that may inhibit growth in other fish in closed systems, so the term GLH may or may not be out-of-date yet.

The reason the terminology was changed from when I was getting my bachelors, was that scientists used to believe these were true hormones, secreted by the endocrine system. Back then, we only had clues to their existence, not actual fact (as I said, I'm old). However, it is now believed these chemicals are exocrine in nature; being by-products of metabolism, so they are now referred to as "substances" instead of hormones.

We now know of two "types" of these substances; GIS (Growth Inhibiting Substances) and GSS (Growth Stimulating Substances).

I'll add this quotation contribution to the thread.

Robert Fenner is one of many beloved and highly-regarded aquarium gurus, and author of The Conscientious Aquarist as well as many other texts and articles. His website, Wet Web Media is one of the best educational sites out there and is highly recommended to all. This is from Robert Fenner's FAQ at his website, Wet Web Media :


Quote:
Do fish grow only as large as their genetic capability and physical environment allows? Well, sort of. Metabolite effects, are often more rate/size limiting. Say Whaaa?

Under my files of least favorite "here we go again" pet-fish urban myths to re-hash and debunk is, "are there growth inhibiting/stimulating substances?" Yes, yes, and yes, and yes! they are important and interesting as all heck. Let's tackle what G.I.S.and G.S.S(ubstances) are, what they do to and for your wet pets, what you can/should do about this new or reinforced knowledge . . .

. . . Many exocrine (versus endocrine) substances have been isolated/identified to have G.I.S. and/or G.S.S. effects. Ammonia-derived metabolites, amino acids and combinations of A.A.s, and most notably short chain fatty acids, have been demonstrated to accelerate/retard the individual growth and behaviors of many groups of fishes.

Most "advanced" (old and wrinkled?) aquariologists know the practical whys and wherefores (consequences) of these substances. Some highlights:

1) Everything else being equal (that is, no food, gas, physical space, filtration, lighting, temperament, other limitations) some same-species fish substances:

A) restrict spawn sizes, differential growth rates of individuals and groups of individuals, further:

B) limiting their subsequent reproductive viability, and even:

C) the smaller (runt) individuals survival rate (demise).

2) Mixing species often lessens the pheromonal stunting effects of a single species alone.
3) Boiling the water, leaving it to age (for weeks), dissipates the responsible compounds.

4) Removal of some or all of the larger members of a spawn or population spurs the growth/development of the next larger individual(s).

5) Some of these materials have beneficial and antagonistic impacts. That is, using "old water" has shown healing and growth-positive actuation compared with absolutely fresh (i.e. no-same-species-chemical secretions) water

6) That frequent massive to partial water changes and effective chemical filtration lessen these effects.

Why? Tell Me Why?:

Towards what possible ends would/should organisms produce such self-limiting secretions/excretions. Several reasons come to mind: 1) To preclude over-crowding and loss of the whole population due to food, oxygen/carbon dioxide limitations, other controlling factors, in the otherwise absence of other species competition or predatory pressures. And I'll leave it up to you to decide whether this one should have been mentioned first, 2) the ole Chucky Darwin Natural Selection (long may it wave?). By having the most humongous citizens beat out the less-humongous as a gauge of "fitness", may enhance the overal survivability of the species.

Where's this Stuff Come From?:

Principally growth stimulating/retarding substances have been found, and presumably are released by way of, body slime, excretory discharges from the anus and gills, and traumatic damage to the organism in general. This last category will explore in our next visit as Schreckstoffes: Alarm Substances of Fishes.

Closing: (Sort of):

So... What's an average pet-fish-ichthyologist to do, anyhow? Mainly, not worry too much; at least not more than their benefiting from their aquatic experience. Actually there are (to my understanding) only a couple or three "things to do" to ameliorate the cumulative negative effects of metabolite build up:

1) Try to selectively filter/change these compounds. Various carbons and clinoptilolites (e.g. zeolite) have showed various positive results in removal of ammonia salts (see Konstantinov et al. re Cyprinus carpio (koi) and Brachydanio rerio (zebra danios) experiments). Still gotta plug skimmer/protein skimmers, with or without ozone et alia embellishments.

2) Serial dilution through, Yes, my favorite: FREQUENT PARTIAL WATER CHANGES; Yay! Certainly the best, least expensive, effective means. Oh, semi-lastly,

3) Flood the system with complementary chemicals. Live plants, a mix of communities of macro and micro-organisms, the whole "life'juice" of the system... the more complex and complete, larger, the better. Live plants, algae, generally all organisms investigated also have their phytohormones et al. affecting/influencing their own and other species. The more these are integrated and functioning, the more naturally homogeneous and self-stabilizing (homeostatic) your system will be. Therefore the argument for linking your tanks together, use live plants, live rock, etc, and finally, lastly

4) The usual harangue about mis/over-feeding. The more glop tossed in, the worse. Feed sparingly, at correct intervals, of useful foods. Are you feeding for growth or maintenance or what?

Biblio. et More: Mainly hobbyist inclusions for historical reasons.

Anon. 1988. Stunt Work. T.F.H. citation of Daniel Heath and Derek Roff, "Test of Genetic Differentiation in Growth of Stunted and Nonstunted Populations of Yellow Perch and Pumpkinseed". Transactions of the Am. Fish. Soc. [116(1):98-102]

Drickamer, L.C. Pheromones: Behavioral & Biochemical Aspects. Adv. Comp. Environ. Physiol. 3, 1989, pp.269-348.

Fenner, Bob-O. 1989. Frequent Partial (what else?) Water Changes. FAMA 4/89. Some self-aggrandizing citation now!

Konstantinov, A.S. & M. Yu Pelipenko. Use of zeolite to remove toxic substances from nitrogen metabolism of fishes. J. Ichthyol., vol. 23, no. 6, pp 159-161, 1983.

Langhammer, Jim. 1976. G.I.S. - G.P.S. - Optimum Crowding, A Possible Synthesis. Tropic Tank Talk. Various issues during the year.

Sprenger, Kappy. 1974. Growth Inhibiting Secretions. Colorado Aquarist. Jan. 1974. Reprint of the original from San Francisco Aquarium Soc.
Stacey, N.E. Role of hormones and pheromones in fish reproductive behavior, An evolutionary perspective. Prentice Hall, Inc. Englewood Cliffs, N.J. 1987, pp. 1-350
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jparis
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jparis
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19 Sep 2007, 06:59 #13

Sprenger, Kappy. 1974. Growth Inhibiting Secretions. Colorado Aquarist. Jan. 1974. Reprint of the original from San Francisco Aquarium Soc.

Does anyone have access to this work? This is probably where we need to start
What do you think GRB?
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jparis
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jparis
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19 Sep 2007, 07:11 #14

Sorry forgot to add
this work was found in Aquarium Pro
http://www.aquariumpros.com/forums/show ... php?t=1457
:blink:
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